Old scar pain from circ. - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 18 Old 09-09-2003, 05:48 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I need some help, and you seem like the best group of people I could find to ask about this so...
My husband was circ as an infant (he's still mad about that) and the doctor must have pulled his "too tight" because now, 25 years later he still has scar pain with errections, intercourse, etc. My husband and I would love to know if this condition has a name and how it can be treated. The medical resources in our area are limited- so all information is greatly appreciated.
Oh, I just want to mention that I didn't know about this problem until recently when a friend of ours was debating circ for her unborn son. I asked my husband how he felt about circ. and he went on a rant about how wrong it is and how his parents should have left such a personal decision to him to make for himself. He also then admitted how he continues to have pain from his.
We will not circ. when/if we have sons, for now we have a dd.
I appreciate any advice, suggestions or knowledge you can share with us about this.

Laura, Mama to Mya 7/02, Ian 6/07 and Anna 8/09
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#2 of 18 Old 09-09-2003, 06:44 PM
 
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The only thing I would think that might help is trying restoration,which is essentially stretching the skin so that more skin will grow.Having more skin should lessen pain during erections.
There are plenty of sites,but this is the only one I have saved at the moment:http://www.norm.org/whyrestore.html
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#3 of 18 Old 09-09-2003, 07:19 PM
 
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There is a name for it. It's called nerve damage. There is no medical treatment available. However, if the pain is because the skin pulls too tight, he can loosen the skin by a stretching technique called restoration that Sarah posted about. Here is a site with a discussion board of men who are restoring:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/foreskinrestoration3/

If it is any comfort, your husbands problem is not uncommon. Some are so tight they tear during sex. Others have pain for various reasons related to circumcision such as mine that is from a skin tag which is related to scarring from the circumcision.

If your husband needs any other information, I'll be glad to try to help.




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#4 of 18 Old 09-10-2003, 12:56 AM
 
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Hi OTmomma- I am sorry to hear about your Dh having trouble with his circumcision scar. I have known several men who have had either pain or excessive pulling because they were circumcised so tightly. My husband did not really understand how tightly he had been cut until he began restoring and began to undersand what his penis felt like without the annoying stretch from the over tight skin.

The practice of infant circumcision is so insane- how can they cut that much skin off a babies teeny penis and think they can get it right when these guys still have so long bfore they go through puberty?... that is one hell of a guestimate when they draw the dotted line on that little penis!... factor in that you don't know what kind of erections the guy will have- some penises are big flaccid and just get hard, but don't get much longer... others will double in length (they call that grow-ers and show-ers) I just can't imagine that anyone has the NERVE to think they can "get it right" ... I mean, even without any complications- it's somone's sex organ! They only get one- any you are just going to guess how much of it they will need? 100% of it belongs to them... any amount less than that is taking what is not yours.

Your husband may qualify for a lawsuit... I think that although usually it's right after you turn 18... I think that there is also a grace period where after you discover that a certain harm had been done- you can still sue. The thought of dragging your problems into courthas got to be terrifying, which is why so few men ever do it... and it is why it is still a terribe damage and injustice that can be perpetrated on little boys with impunity. Men have to start speaking out. He could contact ttorneys for the rights of the child.

I am very proud of your husband for his willingneess to be as open as he has! I hope he keeps telling people. has he told his parents? He does not need to "confront" them you know... he can just tell them he facts. he does not ned to punish them, but how about if he asked them to speak out at every opportunity to tell other people about the mistake they made by allowing their child to be circumcised. Community service. if he does not tell them, they could be using his circumcision as a story of a circumcision done right and problem free to convince other people to do it. "We did our son and it healed quick!"

I read message boards all the time, posts from a mom of a four month old baby saying "He healed just fine, he doesn't have any of the problems you kooks claim were going to happen." Well what does she know about him healed just fine? Has he hit puberty? Is he married? What do you know about his sensations?

Anyway- there was also an article on restoration in Details magazine last May I think... it had Ewan macGregor on the cover if you look for it in the library.

Best wishes to the two of you- I hope that soon physical pain will be a thing in his past and that he finds good outlets for the emotional issues that this has caused in his life. it's just not fair.

Love Sarah
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#5 of 18 Old 09-10-2003, 01:36 AM
 
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I've been hesitating to offer this thought without specific knowledge, BUT
people with pain from other kinds of scars have had success with acupuncture. I have had tenderness under my scars from minor abdominal surgery from 9 years ago- and my acupuncturist was able to help!
Of course that's a very different part of the body, but I continue to be impressed with the ability of acupuncturists to heal problems that have been deemed un-help-able by Western medicine folks. No harm in checking it out, right?

I hate to think of what that must feel like for your husband!
Good luck.

DIYer mama to DD 11/00 and DS 6/05- both intact, naturally!
...missing Mothering Magazine...
 
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#6 of 18 Old 09-10-2003, 03:49 AM
 
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Wow, this thread is blowing my mind. I normally just lurk about in this forum, but I had to say something here. My husband has this exact same thing and since ds was born he has really been realizing the damage that was done to him when he was circumcised as a baby.

A short while ago there was a thread where a mama who is also a nurse relayed her experience watching a circumcision on two babies by med students in training. I read that and showed dh and suddenly it was as if a light went off. We both realized that his circumcision was botched. He has been so bold as to contact his mother and grandfather (who is a doctor) to try and find out if there is anything in his records of his circ. not being done correctly, but of course, there is nothing noted there.

I didn't really know the the stretching thing was effective, I always just thought it was all for aesthetics. Frank, did you do this restoration?

I will try to get dh to read this thread and maybe post tomorrow. Thank you for starting this thread.
-Bianca

Mother to one wild and crazy boy 12/29/2002.
Midwife, Homeschool Educator and Crafter.
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#7 of 18 Old 09-10-2003, 09:03 AM
 
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Sarah:

The statute of limitations laws vary from state to state. In most states, the clock starts ticking on the 18th birthday but in some, it starts when the damage is recognized. In those states a 60 year old man could sue. In most states, the time limitation is 3 years but that also varies from less to more. The real problem is that by the time the man gets to 18 years old, often the doctor is dead and gone. While the statute of limitations for parents usually run out in 3 years, I believe they can sue on behalf of their son at any time up to his 18th birthday. I'm going to check that out with an attorney.

Bianca:

Yes, I have restored. While many men do report an esthetic benefit, it is really all about the sexual benefit for both the man and his partner and it really does work. It is a pain in the *** and it can only restore part of what was taken away but my goodness! Viva la difference! It was well worth the considerable effort and years required to complete. I credit it with warding off impotence for me and reinvigorating my sex life. I just wonder what sex could have been like with all of the parts present and in action.




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#8 of 18 Old 09-10-2003, 03:13 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Thank you all so much for your thoughts and support, and sharing these presonal stories!
ramlah: When my husband gets home from work, I'll ask about the acupuncture, I think its a great idea, but I doubt he will LOL

Sarah: My husband and I just finished a lawsuit to get damages for a car accident that he was in, he had mild brain damage from the accident. It was a miserable experience with lawyers trying to tell us that it was OK, because he's still as smart as everyone else, he had more brain to loose, so its OK. I can't imagine what they would say about a penise!! And I don't think we could deal with that!
My mother-in-law passed away just before our dd was conceived, and my father-in-law isn't the type to talk to people about anything, much less be a circumcision advocate, so I doubt my dh will talk to him about it. But I do agree that men have to start talking about this subject so that this stops happening. I have a friend that chose circumcision for her son a few years ago, and I know that no one told her that there were any reasons not to do it.
Frank: THANKYOU! Your personal stories of healing mean so much! I appreciate your openness and honesty.
Can you recommend a book on restoration or should we just hunt the net?

Thank you all!

Laura, Mama to Mya 7/02, Ian 6/07 and Anna 8/09
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#9 of 18 Old 09-10-2003, 05:26 PM
 
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OT:

As far as I know, there has been only one book published on the subject. That was "The Joy Of Uncircumcising" by Dr. Jim Bigelow. It went through two printings and is now out of print. A few months ago, there was a used copy at Amazon.com at the rip-off price of $119.00. Marilyn Milos at www.nocirc.com also had a few copies a few months back and may still have some. I think her price was $19.95. She may still have some. I don't think there will be a third printing. The first was about 1989 and the second was about 1993. That was before the internet and all of the information available now. I think that has superceded the need for a book like that.

To be honest, Bigelow's book just has a small part about the actual mechanics of restoration. Most of it is about the history, the myths and lies, the psychological and sexual impact and the denial that goes on in men's minds. It is chock full of testimonials from men who wished they weren't circumcised and from those who have restored. While it is an interesting read, there is far more information about the actual process at the sites posted above. There is also the evolving technology in the products and devices. Most of the devices are home made or made by little cottage industries that have sprung up to meet the demand and thus, there are new ones constantly being introduced as the men struggle with what is a consuming and exasperating process. This type rapid change is what the internet handles best. Repeat printings of a book could never possibly keep up with it.

While the book may help him come to grips with what was done to him and get full realization, the internet is the best place for actual "How-to" information.




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#10 of 18 Old 09-10-2003, 06:43 PM
 
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You can download a digital copy of "the Joy of Uncircumcising" for $10. Yeah!!! No more expensive used books on Amazon! thank you Jim Bigelow.

I still have not downloaded the copy for John, but this reminds me.

http://www.norm.org/joy.html

Just a note- if you do go searching around online for books, doubtless you will also encounter a book called "Sex as nture intended it" I have very poor reviews for this book. My husband REALLY hated it, and I also found a lot of the premise of the book very annoying, dangerous and sexist. I would totally steer clear of that one.

I have slammed this book in another post here, but I don' remember when or what thread it was. i don't feel like gting into all the gory details righ now- but if you want to know more, ask and I will fill you in on the details.

In brief, the woman who wrote it was an adulturess, which sits very low in my book. She seems to focus on all the reasons why her marriage was failing because her husband was circumcised and how that messes with the love bond... well- BULL SH*T... my husbnd could get his whole crotch eaten off by a rottweiler and i would not cheat on him. Cheaters are responsible for their own actions, not circumcisers. yeah, the foreskin has a sexual funcion... but cheating is cheating- period.

Then, her husband's restoration was done surgicly, something that is really frowned upon in restoration circles for being very risky because it involves more cutting and more scarring. nd could rlly hurt a man long term.

Well- if that was his solution, I am in no place to judge him, but it seems to be a poor exmple from the couple who are "writing the book" on wht sex i supposed to be like... overall I felt disgused by the simplitic and objectifying attitudes toward people and relationships through a different type of objectification.

This book did not hav a wholistic respectful attitude toward our bodies that I would have expected. it was a superficial type of attention... superficial in the same way I find circumcision excuses superficial. Circ to have a good looking penis for women, un-circ to have a pleasureable penis for women... yadda yadda... same old story different arguments.

Love Sarah
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#11 of 18 Old 09-10-2003, 07:22 PM
 
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I had no idea (obviously) that is was available in this format. that's terrific!

I have read it and while it is somewhat out of date as far as the mechanical aspects of restoration, the rest of it is a good read and helps get your head around circumcision, restoration and why it is a good idea. It's well worth the 10 bucks.




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#12 of 18 Old 09-11-2003, 01:09 AM
 
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Hi there, I am brodie, dh to bionicsquirrel. (Moderators, I don't know if this is allowed, but please do not erase my dh's thread, this is really important to him and I am sitting next to him) (dicktation is allowed, right?? )


My wife attempted to wake me last night, with promises of exciting reading, "not tonight honey"... but today i am wishing i got my lazy butt out of bed because EUREKA i am not alone !

I have a large circ. scar on my penis and when i have had sex more often then say, once every 3-4 days, i develop a symptom which I would descripe as a pin-pricking, or slicing , of the tip of my penis. I have found no way to ease the pain, and at times have to lie perfectly still and keep anything from touching my penis or the pain will surge.

I have asked for my medical records and nothing is noted as far as a complication goes, and I have wondered what happened.
My wife and i have discussed the possibility of taking legal action but we have not decided what to do , and untill I read this thread, i assumed that this was a rare problem, and mitigation would be difficult.

First of all, thanks to everyone who is contributing to this thread, it has motivated me to get educated about the restoration process, and to look into a malpractice suit.
Secondly, does anyone know if the statue of limitations issue is based on the state the circ. was performed, or if it is based on where you reside?

Thanks again, Brodie.

Mother to one wild and crazy boy 12/29/2002.
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#13 of 18 Old 09-11-2003, 01:28 AM
 
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Hi Brodie- I'm sorry to met you under these circumstances... but I sure am glad that you might be able to find some help/assistanc and comraderie here. it really sucks to struggle alone with a problem... and it's even more terrible to think to the thousands of men who are not alone... who think they are alone. Just getting connected is probably going to be a major weight off your shoulders. I hope.

I think DH's are always allowed to post here- you didnt break any rules that I know of!

I am going to leave this thread as an open window for my DH (John) to see when he gets up in the AM.

I think writing directly to ARC will get yo the legal answer you need.

http://www.arclaw.org/

Love Sarah
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#14 of 18 Old 09-11-2003, 09:10 AM
 
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Brodie:

I'm sorry to hear of the problems you are having. Like you, I also have one of those problems and had no idea why until I started researching this subject. I had always blamed my prolems on my lovers or figured "That's just the way it is." Once I learned the facts, the reason for my pain was clearly evident right there on my penis and I had just never looked closely enough with enough education to recognize the evidence.

In most cases, a lawsuit has to be brought in the state and county of residence of the person you are suing. In the case of a corporation, you bring action in the state and county of the legal address of the corporation. The doctor may be a part of a legal corporation and the hospital would certainly be a corporation. There are exceptions to this rule.

Your mention that the pain is in the tip of your penis makes it sound like it is not in the circumcision scar and the pin prickling or slicing feel leads me to believe it may be from reduced blood flow. You see, there is an artery that goes to the underside of the head of your penis that is dedicated to supply blood to this area called the frenulum. The frenulum is the most sensitive part of a natural penis but has no function in a circumcised penis. This artery is always sealed shut in infant circumcision and usually the other blood vessels will adapt to supply sufficient blood flow to keep the area fron necrotizing. It sounds like the blood flow to this area is not sufficient to supply the area and the pain you are experiencing is because of an inadequate oxygen level in the area due to the reduced blood flow.

The other possibility is nerve damage but is less likely. The nerve to the frenulum, the frenular nerve, is one of very few nerves that is totally dedicated to one specific area and I believe is the only one in the lower half of the body. In an infant circumcision, it is crushed and then cut. With the blood supply for it from the frenular artery gone, it atrophies and dies and is absorbed by the body. Something may have gone wrong in your case. One of the blood vessels may have made a connection to this nerve and is supplying it with (reduced) blood flow and along with the damage always done with circumcision to the frenular nerve, is sending just enough of a signal through from the damaged end that you feel pain with too much "exercise."

Whether restoration will help with this pain can not be determined. If your shaft skin is tight when you are erect, it very well may. Restoration provides you with more skin on the shaft as a natural penis would have. This allows the skin to move up and down the shaft during intercourse, reducing the friction and therefore reducing the trauma to the skin system and the nerve and vascular structures. It is certainly something I would investigate. At the worst, you will spend a few dollars and have a few more wrinkles on your penis. Even if it doesn't work, intercourse will be much more comfortable for your wife which may have it's own benefits. At best, you may reduce the episodes of pain or eliminate them altogether. You will also have a much improved sexual experience.

Good luck and keep us updated!




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#15 of 18 Old 09-11-2003, 11:24 AM
 
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Well- I have a totally different opinion about what is going on Brodie...

my idea is that the problems coming from your circumcision are more in the normal/common range of circumcision problems which might be mostly relieved with restoration....

I don't know that I am convinced that there is some sort of irreparable nerve damage (above and beyond the "normal" circumcision nerve damage.)

The reason why?

You discribe your symptoms in terms of the frequency of sex.

This makes me think that the painful feelings you are having come from raw abrabed tearing from intercourse because of the very tight skin, and possibly th other de-sensitizing effects of keritinization and the way you (might) be having sex to overcome those other problems.

If you had said, "If I am on my feet all day- my dick goes numb." or "If I'm in the car longer than an hour it starts to throb painfully."or "I can't feel anything when I masturbate or have sex" or "one side is numb" I might think there was a nerve damage, but because your painful feelings have to do with the frequency you have sex, I can't imagine that would have to do with damaged nerves that are present all of the time regardless if you have sex.

Of course I am NOT a DR or in any way qualified to diagnose ... I am just trying to figure it out from what you said.

My short term ideas. #1 get and use a lube you both like. That should cut down on some of the abrasion and pulling.

#2 realise that sometimes circumcised men have sex diffently than men who are used to having their glans covred all the time. A circumcised man usually like a lot of pressure which is why the polls all show them liking oral and anal sex more than intact men... it's not that intact men don't like it- it's just that they don't *need* the added stimulation ... this makes some circumcised guys need to thrust very hard to get the stimultion they need- well- a guy might find his pleasure there- but he also might tear himself (and his partner) up in the process too. It's possible that if your glans was not always exposed and you were able to get back some of that sensitivity- then you would be able to change the way you have sex a little without sacrificing any pleasure.

My idea- there is product... (yes- you too can dress like a Red Hot Chilli Pepper!") It's a penis undergarment. Even before you start restoring or on your days in between, or even if you don't restore - by keeping your glans covered you will allow those nerves to "liven up"

This undergarment might also be just the "bandaid" you need if you do wind up feeling raw aftr sex and the touch of th sheets or your underwear is too much- maybe it will work for you.

http://www.manhood.mb.ca/details.html

It does sound to me that you would really benefit from restoring a little bit, even if you don't decide to restore all the way- it sounds like you would gt a lot of relief from taking that tension off the scar.

I'm really sory that you have to deal with this, but I hope that soon you will b abl to find a solution.

Love Sarah
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#16 of 18 Old 09-11-2003, 02:11 PM
 
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Sarah:

RE: "i develop a symptom which I would descripe as a pin-pricking, or slicing , of the tip of my penis."


That is why I think it may be in the blood supply It's at the tip of the glans if I read it correctly. This is the area that is supplied by the frenular artery, the whole ventral side of the glans and down to the coronal succulus on the ventral side. This part is the part that gets the friction, circumcised or intact. It's designed to do this and should be able to handle it either way. But! Brodie has described it as a pricking or slicing (sharp) sensation which would indicate vascular damage and inadequate bloodflow especially if the area had been traumatized as in intercourse. It may well be that the different technique that circumcised men use is a contributing factor but I don't believe it is the main factor. It also wouldn't surprise me at all if Brodie had episodes of meatal stenosis as a child as it is believed that meatal stenosis is in part caused by this reduced blood flow. The area affected is the same if I am understanding Brodie's diescription correctly.

The thing that made me think it might be nerve damage is his description of the cutting or sharp pain is the same as the pain I have from my skin tag and that is definitely nerve damage. Mine feels like a paper cut, a sharp searing pain. It also comes after particularly long sessions where there is probably some slight traumma to the area.

Restoration didn't help my pain but it did help my sexuality.

Brodie: If you feel the tip of your penis around the urethral opening, does it feel firmer than the rest of your glans? Almost like there is a little soft knot around the urethral opening? This would be a very strong indication that you had meatal stenosis as a child and if the theory is true, would point to vascular damage. Meatal stenosis is a complication of circumcision. You may want to ask your mother if you ever had bouts of redness and irritation at the tip of your penis as a child. That is one of the symptoms of meatal stenosis.




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#17 of 18 Old 09-11-2003, 11:14 PM
 
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Frank,
Thanks for the info, I inspected my glans and do not feel any tissue that is per say, firmer than the rest although your symptoms and mine sound similar, and I can follow the logic on your diagnosis. I will check it out sometime when I am erect and see if there is a difference.
Please excuse me if this sounds to detailed or obscene, but I want to say that seems as though my skin is to tight and that my urethera is inverting, and splitting. The sensation is as described in the prior post, and is usually not noticed until after intercorse has stopped. We have tried different methods of birth controll, and different brands of personal Lube, there seems to be no corelation to the type/amount of personal luberication used, nor does the method of birth controll effect the frequency of this sensation.

Sarah, thanks for the link to the arc, I have contacted them and am waiting for a reply, my question was regarding which state's statue of limitations would come into play, the state where the event happened, or the state I reside in. I suspect that it will be based on the State where the operation took place, and will reply with the information I gain.

thanks, brodie

Mother to one wild and crazy boy 12/29/2002.
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#18 of 18 Old 09-12-2003, 01:27 AM
 
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Brodie:

If I am reading what you describe correctly, it does sound like you have too little shaft skin when erect. If you grasp the shaft skin when erect between your forefinger and thumb with medium pressure, can you move it up and down the shaft? If you can't, that could be part of the answer. If it won't move at least a half inch, it is too tight and ideally, it should move from half way up to the glans or down to the base. An intact man would have even more movement than this.

If it is too tight, loosening the skin through restoration techniques could be the answer.



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