S/O: Disowning or Ignoring those who circ - Page 3 - Mothering Forums

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#61 of 110 Old 05-19-2008, 10:43 PM
 
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I can't go along with ending relationships over a parenting decision, no matter how it may break my heart.
I wish I could be more like this, but I'm not. I guess my ways just aren't gentle enough, because when I'm really annoyed and/or disgusted with someone it just stays at the front of my mind when I'm around them, I say too much and wind up labeled the know-it-all pushy b***h. I hate coming off that way, esp. since it bothers, so if I can't be truly civil, it's better for everyone for me just to avoid the situation altogether.

But that's me and I do wish I could handle it differently. On the one hand I am very understanding of people who I feel get really bad advice and have little personal ground to stand on, but on the other hand I lose it with those who seem to have all the info and just fly in the face of logic. Those are my two extremes, both of which I take a lot of criticism for.
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#62 of 110 Old 05-19-2008, 10:54 PM
 
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I would not be able to remain friends with someone who circ'd despite me giving them info. I have a girlfriend that never told me one way or the other and I prefer to keep it that way b/c I don't want to know if they did it or not.

I lost another friend b/c she told me in a very stern and awful way that she didn't care one bit about the info I gave her, her DH was a premature ejaculator and "can't imagine being any more sensitive" so she would ABSOLUTELY cut her son. So far she's only had a daughter, but I did not have the energy to continue a relationship with this woman. And yes, I tried everything to convince her that intact men have MORE control, not less, but to no avail. She was molested as a kid and I suspect she has power issues over males. If she got therapy it would probably help her son out.

Switching lanes here...I firmly believe that medicalized birth and the disempowerment of women is a HUGE contributor to RIC.
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#63 of 110 Old 05-19-2008, 11:16 PM - Thread Starter
 
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The difference between circumcision and parenting practices like breastfeeding, family bed, and homeschooling is that circumcision only affects one person--the boy--and it only affects him negatively, whereas the other choices affect the whole family, usually positively.

And the difference between circumcision and vaccination is that no competent first world medical association advices circumcision, but they do advise vaccinations. To be honest, we delay vax. I wish there was no need to make a decision about vaccinating because there is so much unhelpful and conflicting information about it.

Reneé, 34 year old mom to Antonin 8/04 and Arianna 9/06  (6 weeks) 5/08. Married to Matt since 6/03 .  
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#64 of 110 Old 05-19-2008, 11:27 PM
 
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I feel this way too. Just because we won't disown a sister or friend for circing doesn't mean we are pro-circ. I am staunchly anti-circ actually.

I would be heartbroken if my sibling or dear friend ended our relationship because I didn't vax and she thought that was neglectful. You could apply the same to women who choose to extended breastfeed, homeschool, family bed. People can make arguments that a number of things that are done by mainstream or alternative moms - that it is neglectful, abusive, etc. Especially because NFL hasn't become common, I think it is too harsh to end important relationships when someone makes a personal decision based on their doctor's advice, their family's advice, what they've read and researched. I completely agree that circing is wrong, and I wish it wasn't done. I am on board with educating our friends and family and anyone else we can reach. I can't go along with ending relationships over a parenting decision, no matter how it may break my heart. That also removes you from your new nephew's life; is that worth it? You aren't changing the fact that he was circed by refusing to speak to his parents anymore.
I feel the same way. My sister ended up circing my nephew. I could have refused to speak to her, etc., but instead, I wanted to remain in my nephew's (and niece's) life. In time, I may be able to convince her to not circ if she ever has another son, or convince her children not to circ when they have children or even turn into an intactivist, even though she circed her son, like me. Circing my nephew was wrong, but it doesn't mean she will always be like that. Or at least I hope not. But the only way I'd feel good about it would to continue to set a good example, so to speak. And show my AP parenting towards her children as well.

I pray for the day Family Court recognizes that CHILDREN have rights, parents only have PRIVILEGES.  Only then, will I know my child is safe.
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#65 of 110 Old 05-19-2008, 11:32 PM
 
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your sister is a sadist. i'm sorry. the callousness of how she handled that poor child's penis??? malicious and disturbing. i would cut her out of my life in about the same quick raw way she chose to cut your nephew.
i'm so sickened i want to cry.
it's not only about the circ-ing it's about the intent.
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#66 of 110 Old 05-20-2008, 01:41 AM
 
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I have a hard time maintaining a relationship with someone who has circ'ed.

I fear so often that my best friend will have a boy and won't listen to me. We've talked about it briefly, when we were teenagers, and she seemed pretty convinced that she would circ. Luckily her first was a girl. I don't know how I would react if it was her.

Other than that, anyone else is usually a swift dismissal. Not worth my emotional investment. Not because I want to spite them and deprive them from my wonderful company (LOL) but because I just can't look at them, or their babies, the same way ever again.
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#67 of 110 Old 05-20-2008, 01:50 AM
 
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a casual aquaintance of mine had her 2yo son circ'd (he was born in germany and the docs wouldnt do it there). that boy suffered for months. i cant be her friend any longer

a very good friend of mine is expecting in oct (as am i), she wont find out the gender before the birth. today i emailed her a bunch of links from here regarding circ. we've already spoken about it and her husband wants the child circ'd because he recalls boys at his school being teased for being intact. i hope once she reads the material i sent she will realize that it is never ok to circ a healthy penis. i am afraid though. i am afraid that it will damage our friendship if she decided to circ.
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#68 of 110 Old 05-20-2008, 02:34 AM
 
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I just edited out numerous lines of details. The details of why simply aren't important.

Yes, I have ended a family relationship over circ after they had tons of info from me. I wouldn't hesitate to make the same decision again under the same circumstances with those people.
I make no apologies for that.
I have no problem cutting ties with family members I feel are toxic in anyway. To me, family is something you have no choice with because you're born into it. I love my family. But I don't have to "like" them, nor do I have to associate with them.

I am about to begin the process of ending a friendship over it, as well. I don't feel ready to make that first step or even discuss it here, as I'm feeling a tad conflicted and quite sad.
But I feel circumcision is in the same category as abuse. I wouldn't continue a friendship with someone who purposefully injured her child. I question who and what type of person this woman is. Is odd how you can think you know someone for so long, only to realize you don't know them at all...
But it is difficult because while I stated in the first paragraph my views on family, I have super-strong ties to my friends. To me, my friends are my family that I chose.
The whole thing just breaks my heart.

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#69 of 110 Old 05-20-2008, 03:12 AM
 
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my sister is pregnant with a boy, and her husband is intact-there's no ? their son will be too, thank goodness.. i can't imagine going thru what you have been thru with your sis. how FRUSTRATING. i have to agree with you, that what she did was abuse, because she KNEW BETTER and did it anyway.
as far as relationships go, it depends. parenting is a fundamental kind of thing. people tend to believe very strongly in Thier Way. It's very difficult to remain friends when you strongly differ.

i have friends who have much older kids that they parented in a very mainstream kind of fashion that now wish they'd done it differently, and our friendships are great. i have also had to part ways with a couple of very wonderful ladies who i liked as women, but could not stomach as mamas-especially since our kids were around one another. my dd doesnt need to see harsh discipline in action like she was seeing with them. mistreatment of a child is a dealbreaker for me.

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#70 of 110 Old 05-20-2008, 04:36 AM
 
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Yes. I ended a life long friendship. She knew and still did it. it would be the same as if she beat her kids or any other form of abuse. if you know better and still do it, I am done, and will tell them as much. I don't condone child abuse.
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#71 of 110 Old 05-20-2008, 05:13 AM
 
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I worry about this with a friend of mine should she get preg. with a boy. I wonder if there is a 'honey not vinegar' way of letting her know exactly how I feel?
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#72 of 110 Old 05-20-2008, 09:58 AM
 
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The difference between circumcision and parenting practices like breastfeeding, family bed, and homeschooling is that circumcision only affects one person--the boy--and it only affects him negatively, whereas the other choices affect the whole family, usually positively.
I agree. I think there is a huge difference between altering a child's genitalia and the other things listed. MGM will never be just another parenting decision in my eyes and I wish it wasn't considered as such to anyone.

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#73 of 110 Old 05-20-2008, 11:01 AM
 
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It would be hard for me to respect someone who did that, because to me it's a human rights issue, not a parenting issue.

It seems that many of the mommas with young children I know who did circ where under a lot of pressure from their partners. I wish there was a way to get through to these men.

Expecting a boy? Be sure to check out MDC's Case Against Circumcision!
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#74 of 110 Old 05-20-2008, 01:22 PM
 
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I think there is a huge difference between altering a child's genitalia and the other things listed.
This was in reference to my bringing up extended nursing, family bed, anti vax. I brought those up as examples of things that are often considered positive on MDC but mainstream parents may call them neglectful or even abusive. They could find articles to support those claims. We could find other articles to support our side.

Your sister or best friend comes to you with articles or books or her deeply held belief that extended nursing or family bed is akin to sexual abuse. She begs you to stop. She can't look at you the same anymore. She cuts ties with you as she just can't stand by while you hurt your child. You strongly disagree but she won't budge. How is that different from someone cutting their sister or best friend out of their life for circing?

I happen to agree with you that circing is wrong. I just don't think cutting ties serves any purpose. What does it solve? How does it improve the circ/intact percentages? When your nephew comes to you as an adult, wanting to know where you were when he was playing his first tee ball game, when he had the lead in the school play, the night he graduated - what is the answer? Your parents had you circed, so I cut your family out of my life? There are moms here on MDC who circed and deeply regret it. Do they deserve to keep their friends and family?

I didn't baptize my kids. My MIL is a STAUNCH Catholic. She prays every day that we'll fix this error. She believes their eternal souls are in jeopardy. There have been discussions about it over the years. But she didn't cut us out of her life.

If it is just some woman who goes to your grocery store, whatever. But if it is your sister, your dear friend, someone close to you? Continuing a relationship doesn't mean you agree that circing their son is ok. It means caring enough about that person to forgive them their mistakes, even if they don't yet realize it was one.
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#75 of 110 Old 05-20-2008, 02:11 PM
 
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I haven't cut off a friendship because of that (haven't had any friends w nb boys) but I would- be it my family or not.
I don't blame you

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#76 of 110 Old 05-20-2008, 02:42 PM
 
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Kirsten, if someone felt that strongly about me bf'ing or not vaxing ect then it would be best we didn't have a relationship. I wouldn't want a relationship with someone who thought me bf'ing my toddler ect was sexual abuse or me not vaxing was a death sentence for my children ect.
None of those things remove a healthy and functional body part like circumcision does and that's just in another league all together imo. I doubt many would put FGM in tha same category as those things, would you?

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#77 of 110 Old 05-20-2008, 03:02 PM
 
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I doubt many would put FGM in tha same category as those things, would you?
There in lies the rub...would you cut off a friendship with someone who had their daughter mutilated?

I sure would...same with a boy...human rights are human rights...mutilation is mutilation...I could not remain in a relationship with someone who's ethics were so so so far from mine.

Victim of Birth Rape & Coerced ribboncesarean.gifUnnecesareanribboncesarean.gif What makes people think they can cut up someone else's genitals? nocirc.gif
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#78 of 110 Old 05-20-2008, 03:06 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Kirsten, if someone felt that strongly about me bf'ing or not vaxing ect then it would be best we didn't have a relationship. I wouldn't want a relationship with someone who thought me bf'ing my toddler ect was sexual abuse or me not vaxing was a death sentence for my children ect.
None of those things remove a healthy and functional body part like circumcision does and that's just in another league all together imo. I doubt many would put FGM in tha same category as those things, would you?
Exactly. Also, so far all of the anti-extended breastfeeding, anti-cosleeping pieces I've read have been emotional "You're just creepy!" type opinion pieces, usually by people who have never slept next to their babies in their lives.

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There in lies the rub...would you cut off a friendship with someone who had their daughter mutilated?

I sure would...same with a boy...human rights are human rights...mutilation is mutilation...I could not remain in a relationship with someone who's ethics were so so so far from mine.
Again, exactly.

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#79 of 110 Old 05-20-2008, 03:53 PM
 
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I didn't baptize my kids. My MIL is a STAUNCH Catholic. She prays every day that we'll fix this error. She believes their eternal souls are in jeopardy. There have been discussions about it over the years. But she didn't cut us out of her life.
Yes but as long as your kids are living you've created a situation that she can't, from her moral perspective, remove herself from. This is not a "done deal" because she can still be pivotal in saving your children's souls as far as she can see. The question of whether she would be able to forgive you would only follow a tragedy.
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#80 of 110 Old 05-20-2008, 08:23 PM
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My relationship with my brother and SIL just isn't the same since they cut their son (after I gave them lots of info). I'm so sorry for your precious nephew.

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#81 of 110 Old 05-21-2008, 04:13 PM
 
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I agree with PPs that if a body part needs to be cleaned or receive medical attention, then that's what it is- cleaning or medical attention, not sexual abuse. And no, I'm not saying what she did was right or acceptable behavior. I just think that's an awfully big accusation to throw around.

That said... to the OP- if you honestly believe that this is sexual abuse, have you called the authorities? In not, then you could and SHOULD be prosecuted along with your sister for standing by and allowing the sexual abuse to continue.

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#82 of 110 Old 05-21-2008, 04:21 PM
 
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I agree with PPs that if a body part needs to be cleaned or receive medical attention, then that's what it is- cleaning or medical attention, not sexual abuse. And no, I'm not saying what she did was right or acceptable behavior. I just think that's an awfully big accusation to throw around.

That said... to the OP- if you honestly believe that this is sexual abuse, have you called the authorities? In not, then you could and SHOULD be prosecuted along with your sister for standing by and allowing the sexual abuse to continue.
Since we all know circumcising boys (not girls of course) is legal and after care is necessary it doesn't really matter legally speaking if the op or anyone else thinks it's sexual abuse. She could notify the authorities but we all know it would do no good and at best she'd just be laughed at.
Suggesting she is contributing or allowing the abuse is beyond offensive because you know she can't legally do anything.

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#83 of 110 Old 05-21-2008, 04:45 PM
 
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Since we all know circumcising boys (not girls of course) is legal and after care is necessary it doesn't really matter legally speaking if the op or anyone else thinks it's sexual abuse. She could notify the authorities but we all know it would do no good and at best she'd just be laughed at.
Suggesting she is contributing or allowing the abuse is beyond offensive because you know she can't legally do anything.
I'm not saying that she should go complain to the legal system about her nephew getting circed and treated... that's ridiculous.

BUT if she believes that her sister was manipulating her son's glans in a sexual way, then she has a duty to report that. If she doesn't think her sister was acting in a sexual manner toward her son, then she shouldn't be tossing around the phrase "sexual abuse" so lightly when it is a VERY serious matter.

Just my opinion.

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#84 of 110 Old 05-21-2008, 04:56 PM
 
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This was in reference to my bringing up extended nursing, family bed, anti vax. I brought those up as examples of things that are often considered positive on MDC but mainstream parents may call them neglectful or even abusive. They could find articles to support those claims. We could find other articles to support our side.

Your sister or best friend comes to you with articles or books or her deeply held belief that extended nursing or family bed is akin to sexual abuse. She begs you to stop. She can't look at you the same anymore. She cuts ties with you as she just can't stand by while you hurt your child. You strongly disagree but she won't budge. How is that different from someone cutting their sister or best friend out of their life for circing?

I happen to agree with you that circing is wrong. I just don't think cutting ties serves any purpose. What does it solve? How does it improve the circ/intact percentages? When your nephew comes to you as an adult, wanting to know where you were when he was playing his first tee ball game, when he had the lead in the school play, the night he graduated - what is the answer? Your parents had you circed, so I cut your family out of my life? There are moms here on MDC who circed and deeply regret it. Do they deserve to keep their friends and family?

I didn't baptize my kids. My MIL is a STAUNCH Catholic. She prays every day that we'll fix this error. She believes their eternal souls are in jeopardy. There have been discussions about it over the years. But she didn't cut us out of her life.

If it is just some woman who goes to your grocery store, whatever. But if it is your sister, your dear friend, someone close to you? Continuing a relationship doesn't mean you agree that circing their son is ok. It means caring enough about that person to forgive them their mistakes, even if they don't yet realize it was one.
Again, the parenting choices you spoke about, even baptism are choices (and some will value the importance of those choices more then others) but circumcision is different, it is a human rights violation, in many of the same ways female circumcision is.

Its not that I would want to cut ties with these people, but I would be so disgusted by them that, even if I tried, I would not be able to hang out with them, be close to them, or open up to them anymore.

I do agree with you though. I would try to stay connected as much as I could, I wouldn't want to deprive a child of another supportive family member because his parents made a stupid decision. I would still stay in their lives, and be there to connect to their son. But when it comes to the friendship with that family member, I would just be going through the motions, to me, my interactions with them would be empty.
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#85 of 110 Old 05-21-2008, 05:20 PM
 
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As a passionate pro-lifer, I feel this way about abortion. To me, abortion, like circumcision, is a human rights issue. Plain and simple. So it is difficult for me sometimes to feel kindly towards those who might argue with me on this point. At the same time, I would not disown or reject someone who has had an abortion nor would I refuse to be friends with someone who is pro-choice. It would be a bad representation of me and my position if I were to act badly towards someone who disagrees with me on the issue. Even further, I can not sway someone to see my side of things if I reject them or are unkind to their position. As with circumcision, I stand firmly on what I believe, yet leave the door open to dialogue and try very hard to love the person despite our differences. Education, patience and compassion are all you can give under such circumstances. It's hard, but it's necessary.

On a personal note, as one of the early posters mentioned, I've "put my head in the sand" so to speak rather than address the circumcision issue because it is a sensitive area for me. My SIL just had a baby boy and I am afraid to ask if she had him circumcized. I'd almost rather not know. I'm scared of her answer if I were to ask. I just hope and pray she didn't do it. That's all I can do. Before the baby was born, we had a few short, civil discussions about it. She knows I don't circ and that I disapprove of it and why. I just left it at that. Who knows.....

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#86 of 110 Old 05-22-2008, 04:42 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I thought I'd come back to this thread and mention that a large part of why I don't feel like having my sister in my life right now is that I personally spent hours over the span of her pregnancy giving her all sorts of information about circumcision and the foreskin. The fact that she chose to hurt her baby after knowing all that information just floors me. I can't think of her the same way anymore. Not right now at least. And maybe not ever.

Reneé, 34 year old mom to Antonin 8/04 and Arianna 9/06  (6 weeks) 5/08. Married to Matt since 6/03 .  
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#87 of 110 Old 05-22-2008, 05:14 AM
 
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In short, she's not the same person I once knew, and I don't think I'll ever feel close to her again.
Your sister's response sickened me.

I didn't end the friendship, in the sense that once I found out about the circumcision, I didn't throw them out of my house and say "that's it, don't ever contact me again". However, I did feel VERY differently toward the woman. I was sickened every time I was reminded of what she had allowed to be done to her son. We moved shortly thereafter, and I never made any effort to contact her.

If it was a family member. . . wow, that would be really hard. My sister is a 26-year old Air Force Academy graduate. She desperately wants to start a family, but will probably wait until she gets out of the Air Force in 5 years. I guess I need to start working on her now, so that I don't ever have to deal with this situation
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#88 of 110 Old 05-22-2008, 02:58 PM
 
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#89 of 110 Old 05-22-2008, 04:03 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by changingseasons View Post
That said... to the OP- if you honestly believe that this is sexual abuse, have you called the authorities? In not, then you could and SHOULD be prosecuted along with your sister for standing by and allowing the sexual abuse to continue.
What the hell are you talking about? :

Reneé, 34 year old mom to Antonin 8/04 and Arianna 9/06  (6 weeks) 5/08. Married to Matt since 6/03 .  
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#90 of 110 Old 05-22-2008, 04:14 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by changingseasons View Post
I'm not saying that she should go complain to the legal system about her nephew getting circed and treated... that's ridiculous.

BUT if she believes that her sister was manipulating her son's glans in a sexual way, then she has a duty to report that. If she doesn't think her sister was acting in a sexual manner toward her son, then she shouldn't be tossing around the phrase "sexual abuse" so lightly when it is a VERY serious matter.

Just my opinion.
A. I'm doing my best to advocate for little boys that they get to keep their whole, normal, and healthy body they're born with. The very idea that you think I should be persecuted for that is just bewhildering. I've been fighting against circumcision since I was in my second trimester with my son in early 2004. How dare you tell me I should pay any of the price for my nephew being hurt when I spent hours pouring over several books and articles to try and help him. :::::

B. I looked back through my posts in the this thread, and I do not see where I said that my sister rubbing my newborn nephew's glans is "sexual abuse", I said it sickened me because under normal circumstances there is no need for anyone to touch a newborn's glans. She was the one who caused her perfectly healthy baby to be in pain and she was the one who caused her son to need her to handle his penis.

C. I did say that circumcision is sexual abuse, but then most (if not all) of us on here feel that way. If you don't, perhaps you should re-evaluate your thoughts on RIC.

You are extremely offensive and the only reason I'm not reporting your post is because I'm not quite that angry yet.

Reneé, 34 year old mom to Antonin 8/04 and Arianna 9/06  (6 weeks) 5/08. Married to Matt since 6/03 .  
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