Why do we even try?? - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 30 Old 05-20-2008, 10:48 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I posted a blog on myspace about circ and went into a little rant about the myths that lead people to torture their sons. My friends from work have responded with the typical "it's my choice" "I hope you will support me just as I would support someone having an abortion" " have you ever heard of phimosis....then they remember the pain". I am so mad and fed up with people believing all of the lies that run rampant here in America. This is enough to make me leave this country full of freaking lemmings. (Thanks Ann-Marita!!)

I guess I should stop before I violate the UA. I will stew in silence.


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#2 of 30 Old 05-20-2008, 10:50 AM
 
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It pisses me off too. Common sense just doesn't seem to be very widespread.

OUR DAUGHTERS ARE PROTECTED SHOULDN'T OUR SONS BE TOO! :
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#3 of 30 Old 05-20-2008, 10:51 AM
 
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I feel the same way
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#4 of 30 Old 05-20-2008, 11:19 AM
 
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A lot of the time I feel that it doesn't even matter what I say, how much it makes sense, etc., unless the person I'm speaking to doesn't already have an open mind (or come from another country).

I started a thread once ranting about what my coworkers/family said about my intact son. I mentioned there that I'm not an intactivist, because in my mind, an intactivist is someone who actively tries to turn people's minds against circumcision, and I don't do that, beyond standing up for my own decisions. Someone who didn't seem too pleased with me for some reason asked me why I'm even here if I'm not an intactivist. As if it's impossible to be anti-circ and not be an intactivist at the same time.

Well, this here is pretty much the reason. Most people who want to do it, want to do it for the stupidest reasons, and are not going to be swayed by logic or common sense. I don't want to waste my breath.
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#5 of 30 Old 05-20-2008, 11:21 AM
 
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The intractability of public opinion and the continued censoring of both the medical and lay literature does make one somewhat cynical about the state of this country. However, if one goes to YouTube and views the circ films from both here and abroad - particulary from Turkey and the Phillipines - one sees in graphic detail (a picture is worth a thousand words) the psychological compulsion to modify/mutilate and the correlative compulsion to justify such once genital modification/mutilation in any form takes hold in any society. So we are not really any different from the rest of the world. We just like to think we are. As Alexander Hamilton said, "Man is a reasoning, rather than a reasonable, creature." It is up to us reasonable creatures to bring the unreasonable ones around, and that takes a great deal of time and patience. But we are slowly doing so. There is a huge change in attitude and behavior in the U.S. since Mothering and NOCIRC launched their anti-circ crusades. We just have to persevere until we win.
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#6 of 30 Old 05-20-2008, 11:27 AM
 
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It sounds as if your blog is being read by some folks who maybe haven't been exposed to the anti-circ message, and that's a very positive thing.

The first time I heard it, I came out with stupid comments. But afterwards, I thought more about it and knew in my heart that circ was wrong.

Keep you chin up, maybe some of these folks will come around. Sometimes the wall comes crashing down and other times it is taken down brick-by-brick.

Expecting a boy? Be sure to check out MDC's Case Against Circumcision!
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#7 of 30 Old 05-20-2008, 11:32 AM - Thread Starter
 
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It's just so disheartening when you spend your time teaching someone (or several someones) about circ. Not just the pain but the lies behind it and the lies from pediatricians. You show them how the foreskin works and how sensitivity in the cut and uncut is different. Then they turn around and cut anyway or spout off a whole 'nother set of lies. It is so ingrained in their heads that circ is golden they won't open up for even one min to try and see it any different. It is so hard not to get angry. I will never see circ as a good thing and I will never support their decision to cut thier babies. I can't force my mind to see circ as a good thing.

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#8 of 30 Old 05-20-2008, 01:40 PM
 
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I was arguing with someone the other day about circ and they came up with a line that just boggled my mind.

She said circ is the same as disciplining your child. Because both change your child in a way and the emotional change you cause by disciplining your child is far greater than what is caused physically by a circ.

I just didn't know how to answer, because I knew that no matter what I said, she wouldn't "get" it.
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#9 of 30 Old 05-20-2008, 02:09 PM
 
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this is something that deeply bothers me as well. So much so that my husband and I are seriously considering moving to Finland where mgm is illegal. I believe it's the same in Sweden and Norway...there are just better job prospects for dh in Finland
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#10 of 30 Old 05-20-2008, 02:12 PM
 
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pm your blog I will LOVE to reply

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#11 of 30 Old 05-20-2008, 03:10 PM
 
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OP, I feel the same way too. I see circumcision as such a human rights atrocity that sometimes I wish I could just pack my bags and move to enlightened Europe **sigh**. I'm getting better at speaking Italian every week so maybe one day moving will actually be an option.

Reneé, 34 year old mom to Antonin 8/04 and Arianna 9/06  (6 weeks) 5/08. Married to Matt since 6/03 .  
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#12 of 30 Old 05-20-2008, 03:14 PM
 
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well.. I really hope my post helps in some way... I got SO carried away with my own experiences that I had to tell. I need a break from the computer, I got really emotional...

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#13 of 30 Old 05-20-2008, 03:32 PM
 
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this is something that deeply bothers me as well. So much so that my husband and I are seriously considering moving to Finland where mgm is illegal. I believe it's the same in Sweden and Norway...there are just better job prospects for dh in Finland
I agree and am as frustrated as everyone else here. But I think it is best that we are here in the US and working hard to try to make a difference--at the very least by setting an example (which I may actually never get to do with just an only-child daughter at the moment LOL).

It may take a long time, but just having more boys in the US who grow up intact will make a big difference. That means people are automatically seeing more intact men and there are more future partners who will talk about it and the more normal it will become. And I think women are actually the easier sell, which is why when there are simply more men intact, more women will have exposure to the, uh, concept and then I believe things will shift more rapidly.

Sounds good anyway LOL. Trying to be hopeful.

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#14 of 30 Old 05-20-2008, 03:43 PM
 
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This is WHY we try..... Education is sometimes painful esp with a closed mind. Let me say this, my first statement about circ was to a medical assistant friend who passed out during one, I said she must be a woose. I didn't KNOW anything then. My next comment was to a friend who kept the foreskin, neat having something of his forever. My next comment was sure I will circ my future sons.

But after a little research, I regretted ever saying any of that. And I now have two beautiful intact boys. Live and Learn

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#15 of 30 Old 05-20-2008, 05:54 PM
 
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Because it gets through to some! Not too long ago, I took care of a laboring couple...they recognized me as being their nurse when they had their first son. They looked vaguely familiar to me but I couldn't recall any of the details of their first birth. The dad said, "Yeah, you were the one who talked to us about circumcision"...and immediately, I smiled and said that sounded like me!!! The situation was that the mom hadn't wanted to do it, but the dad thought they should because of "health benefits" and because he was circ'd. Long story short, the mom and I together told him the truth about there really being no health benefits and made him okay with leaving their son intact...and now they have 2 intact sons...and the dad said he wishes he still had his!

Laura...part-time OB nurse, and full-time mom to two sweet boysnocirc.gifintactlact.gif
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#16 of 30 Old 05-20-2008, 06:04 PM
 
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Because it gets through to some! Not too long ago, I took care of a laboring couple...they recognized me as being their nurse when they had their first son. They looked vaguely familiar to me but I couldn't recall any of the details of their first birth. The dad said, "Yeah, you were the one who talked to us about circumcision"...and immediately, I smiled and said that sounded like me!!! The situation was that the mom hadn't wanted to do it, but the dad thought they should because of "health benefits" and because he was circ'd. Long story short, the mom and I together told him the truth about there really being no health benefits and made him okay with leaving their son intact...and now they have 2 intact sons...and the dad said he wishes he still had his!
beautiful!!!!!!!!!!!

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#17 of 30 Old 05-20-2008, 06:16 PM
 
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This is enough to make me leave this country full of freaking lemurs.
I think you mean lemmings. Lemmings are small rodents and the myth is that they commit mass suicide, following one another into the ocean or jumping off a cliff.

Lemurs are primates, monkey-like creatures that jump a lot.

I agree about all the sheeple that just go along with what is popular, instead of thinking for themselves.

Ann-Marita. I deleted my usual signature due to, oh, wait, if I say why, that might give too much away. 

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#18 of 30 Old 05-20-2008, 06:17 PM
 
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We has ds circ. (we just thought that's what you were suppose to do and no one really told us otherwise, plus i think what we read online was from pro-circ. sites through google) but afterwards I regretted it and after I joined mdc and read some of these threads is when I decided I was never going to put any of my future son's through this. The best part is finally convincing dh to join me and not circ our future sons as well (he wanted to b/c we had ds circ and he was afraid Elijah would feel "left out")

So thanks to all of you mommas for the information over the past and hopefully this answers "why do you we even try?"
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#19 of 30 Old 05-20-2008, 07:00 PM
 
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We has ds circ. (we just thought that's what you were suppose to do) but afterwards I regretted it and after I joined mdc and read some of these threads is when I decided I was never going to put any of my future son's through this. The best part is finally convincing dh to join me and not circ our future sons as well (he wanted to b/c we had ds circ and he was afraid Elijah would feel "left out")

So thanks to all of you mommas for the information over the past and hopefully this answers "why do you we even try?"


That's why you (we) try. I also had my DS circ'd before I realized what a mistake it was. Biggest regret of my life.

I've often thought back to the "discussions" I came across when I was pregnant (usually heated arguments in preg/parent communities online). I wish I could say that they changed my mind, oh God I WISH it would have changed my mind... but most of the language used (by both sides of the argument) just made me roll my eyes and close the screen.

Someone who has been raised thinking that this is a normal and expected thing is NOT going to be swayed by language like "mutilate", "abuse", etc. (Even though I agree that all of those are true, NOW.) The fact is that people who may have never considered NOT circ'ing are going to need to be swayed gently, gradually, you have to meet them where they are and understand why they think that way, then help them see the truth. Jumping from "normal baby boy procedure" to "child abuse" in the mind of someone who had never even SEEN an intact penis before, just isn't likely to happen immediately. I am saying this as someone who, just 2 years ago, was on the "other side".

(I don't know what the OP's blog post said, so I'm not saying that her approach was wrong or anything... ) But even though it's discouraging, you never know who is reading and who may be swayed by something you said. : Don't let one comment get you down...

Amanda , mama to my two boys: N (10/06) and : A (7/09)
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#20 of 30 Old 05-20-2008, 07:06 PM
 
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I agree that in putting the information out there, you are making people aware that this is a controversial topic - that's a good first step.

Circumcision is ingrained in the American psyche - it takes awhile for the horror of it to sink in at times.

I think of myself - I feel that circumcision is a human rights violation, plain and simple. The thought of it turns my stomach.

But when I first saw a circumcision argument on-line (before I had kids) - passed it by - didn't see what the big deal was.

And I remember a friend of mine (again, before I had kids) telling me that she and her husband had decided to circ their unborn child (she ended up having a girl) - even though her OB TOLD her he didn't use pain relief.

And I didn't say anything to her. Didn't try to talk her out of it. Didn't even think about it much, beyond mentioning it to my hubby and agreeing that we wouldn't circ (I was also pregnant at the time).

Can you believe that? I knew I wouldn't cut my own child, but I just did not get it.

But now I do. It just takes time for some people - so keep putting the information out there, countering the ridiculous arguments people give for cutting their child's genitals and don't give up hope. You are and will make a difference!
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#21 of 30 Old 05-20-2008, 08:07 PM
 
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I feel that circumcision is a human rights violation, plain and simple.
that's exactly how I look at it!

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#22 of 30 Old 05-20-2008, 08:21 PM
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We try because.......we can't not try.

"Our task is not to see the future, but to enable it."
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#23 of 30 Old 05-20-2008, 10:58 PM
 
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We try because.......we can't not try.

Exactly.

Laura...part-time OB nurse, and full-time mom to two sweet boysnocirc.gifintactlact.gif
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#24 of 30 Old 05-20-2008, 11:34 PM
 
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I think you mean lemmings. Lemmings are small rodents and the myth is that they commit mass suicide, following one another into the ocean or jumping off a cliff.

Lemurs are primates, monkey-like creatures that jump a lot.

I agree about all the sheeple that just go along with what is popular, instead of thinking for themselves.
"Sheeple"! I love it!!
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#25 of 30 Old 05-21-2008, 12:13 AM
 
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What A&A said all the heartache and pain is worth it to me if I canjust get 1 person to think and save 1 little boy from this barbaric custom (sorry if that is a offensive term but that is how I see it)

 
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#26 of 30 Old 05-21-2008, 01:03 AM
 
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Wherever there is a big breakdown is the best place to have a breakthrough. Remember the racial integration movement was most focused in Alabama. Altho I live in Canada and do work locally, my biggest focus is the U.S. in my activist work. That's where the big miracle will happen. We've come a long, long way.

It's also important to remember that backlash is a sign that you're getting somewhere. It's an important herald of change. That's not some Pollyannish thought--it's been shown over and over with political and social change that backlash is inevitable and a sign that the tide is turning.

And, really, why we bother is because we can. Keep on blogging!
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#27 of 30 Old 05-21-2008, 01:34 AM
 
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I can relate to what you are feeling. Sometimes it hurts my heart so much when I run in mainstream circles (or chat boards) and hear the ignorant comments that people spew about the "benefits" of circ or why it is not so bad. There are times when I feel that people are just convinced and that there is no talking them out of their beliefs.

However, to me it isn't worth giving up because I know that in telling the inactivist side of the story, I may get someone who is pro-circ to re-evaluate something about her beliefs, or I may be able to share important information with someone who is sitting on the fence or doesn't know much about RIC. Maybe you'll even reach a lurker who isn't active in the discussion, but is reading it because she is trying to untangle all the different arguments she is hearing for and against circ.

When I was pregnant with DS, I had NO idea about what RIC entailed, no clue whether or not I should do it. I started learning when I opened a "will you circ your son?" discussion thread on a mainstream pregnancy board I belonged to. Most of the responses were "yes" for the typical reasons, but a few of the "no" responses and the intelligent supporting information led me to search for more information on the inactivist point of view. So if it weren't for inactivist comments on a mainstream board, who knows, maybe I would have done it out of ignorance. I like to think not, but before I knew better, I assumed that pretty much everyone circ'ed and figured that maybe it was no big thing. I'm just so glad that I read the comments and learned the best thing to do for my son!
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#28 of 30 Old 05-21-2008, 10:21 AM
 
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pm your blog I will LOVE to reply
ME TOO!!! I think you would love my myspace page... friend request me, if you'd like..

I LOVE leaving my anti-circ companions nice little inspirational messages/comments...
then they'll see you're not ALONE!!!
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#29 of 30 Old 05-21-2008, 01:40 PM
 
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Because I live in Canada I don't know anyone who has circed and no one in my family is. I was under the impression that it was only a Jewish thing. I didn't know. Because of this message board I have come to realize the extent of the problems with RIC. Keep up the good work. Now I have reasons for why we kept our DS's intact.

Wife to DH, Mom to my Intact Boys DS1: Born 02 Pain Med Free Hospital Birth, BF'ed for 9 Months, Partially Vax'd DS2: Born 06 via UC, BF'ed 3 years 10 months, and UnVax'd
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#30 of 30 Old 05-21-2008, 02:38 PM
 
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I think if someone has never really been exposed to why not circ, their first exposure to the argument is usually met with resistance and the same old arguments. Some people have to go through that phase before they start to reflect and their opinions change. I know b/c my dh is soooo like that. Gets it from his mom. He will argue anything at first if it is new to him, but then he actually starts to think. Very rarely have I ever brought it up with someone who initially said, "oh, not circ? Please, tell me all about it!" But you have to start somewhere.
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