S/O of a S/O Do you consider RIC sexual abuse? - Page 3 - Mothering Forums
View Poll Results: Do you consider RIC sexual abuse?
Yes, even though it is legal it is clearly an abuse against an innocent person. 133 74.72%
No, I don't think it's abusive because it is legal. 6 3.37%
No, I wouldn't consider it abusive even if it were illegal. 29 16.29%
I'm not sure and would like to explain in a post. 10 5.62%
Voters: 178. You may not vote on this poll

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The Case Against Circumcision > S/O of a S/O Do you consider RIC sexual abuse?
changingseasons's Avatar changingseasons 09:20 PM 05-24-2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdx.mothernurture View Post
The person on the power trip is the parent. They're circumcising because they're the parent, it's legal, and you can't stop them. They're circumcising because they think they know best. They're circumcising because it was done to dad and he thinks he's just fine. They're circumcising him because he's too little to remember and will never know the difference. They're circumcising him because they think it looks better, because they perceive it as their "right"...just another choice like cloth or disposable, whether to use a pacifier or not, homemade baby food or jared.
Does anyone out there think that there is just a slight possibility that parents are doing this because they honestly believe it is the healthiest option for their child?!? Not for a power trip, not because they "can", but only because they have been educated to believe that it will save their LO's from future medical problems. I was one of those people who believed the medical information until I got pregnant and started my own research. And even in some of the books I read while pregnant (published in the last 5 years), they were explaining the medical benefits of RIC! Now again, I'm not saying I agree with that- I'm just letting people know that there is still a lot of misinformation out there. A lot of opinions on this thread seem to think that parents are getting some sick, sadistic joy out of circing their children, and I just can't and won't believe that is the case.


Quote:
Originally Posted by pdx.mothernurture View Post
If you new a young girl who'd had a sexual relationship with a much older man she felt she was in love with, and it was a positive---although inappropriate/sexually abusive/statuatory rape situation---would you go out of your way to make her feel victimized if she didn't feel violated by the sexual relationship? Would you try to convince her that she'd been abused and was physically or psychologically damaged? No? Why would acknowledging circumcision as the sexual abuse that it is make you feel like you needed to rub your nephew's nose in it and make him feel badly about something that was done and over, something that was done to him when he was most vulnerable, something he can't change, probably ignorantly with good intentions?
No, I absolutely would never do that. I was just trying to provoke some thought with that example. If there is sexual abuse happening, then there has to be an abuser and an abused (victim). How do we go after these abusers without the abused feeling like they were violated and are no longer a complete person?

Really my whole point throughout this debate is that there needs to be education regarding RIC, not name calling and witch hunting.

pdx.mothernurture's Avatar pdx.mothernurture 09:46 PM 05-24-2008
If an abuser abuses out of ignorance and availability rather than malice or sociopathy, then the answer is education and criminalization. I'm sure some parents do circumcise based on pervasive cultural myths and misinformation. Again, I'm not suggesting the intent of most parents is to cause unnecessary pain and irreversible harm.

Just because they mean well though doesn't make the act any less abusive to the baby strapped spread-eagle to the rigid, molded plastic board having 1/2-2/3 of the skin on his penis crushed and excised and an internal, mucousal part of his penis, the glans, permanently exposed.

Just because those responsible aren't getting sexual gratification doesn't make circumcision any less invasive and sexually damaging than prematurely breaking a little girl's hymen or cutting off her labia or clitoral hood.

IMO, it absolutely *is* a sexual violation; it *is* sexual abuse.

Jen
thixle's Avatar thixle 10:40 PM 05-24-2008
Jen, you are my hero I aspire to be as well spoken/written as you on the emotional aspects of this topic

And, yep, some days, I just want to preach to the choir... makes me feel better, knowing I'm not alone

Quote:
I think all of us realize it's an accurate-but inflammatory-term and not necessarily the most effective phrase to use when we're doing activism and outreach with the public. This particular thread is on a board dedicated to intactivism...presumably we're all on the same team.

Also, I don't think anyone here is advocating hate. We're advocating honest acknowledgement of what circumcision is and the irreversible damage it causes. Most parents circumcise out of habit/cultural conformity, ignorance, and spousal coercion.

AntoninBeGonin's Avatar AntoninBeGonin 12:45 AM 05-25-2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by purplestraws View Post
I think it's just about having the courage to call it what it is.

Honestly, I don't think that ANYONE (well, hopefully...) has their son circumcised because they think they are sexually abusing him. We've just been so brainwashed to think that it's a acceptable and NECESSARY practice that the ability to look at circumcision for what it is...abuse...is nearly impossible for most people. However, refusing to recognize it as such just to avoid hurt feelings is not only wrong, but justifying the abuse of future boys.

It's really a catch 22. At a point where circumcision is still so widely accepted and encouraged...do you sugarcoat the awfulness that it is to avoid hurt feelings or do you stand up and advocate for those that are being abused while running the risk of offending the abusers?

If it were a little 2 year old girl being sexually assaulted by her uncle, would you say, "Yes, it was wrong. Her uncle just couldn't control himself, though. He already feels bad enough about it. Let's just tell him he was wrong...the little girl will get over it and be no worse for the wear. She was young enough she won't even remember it."
Brava! Brava! Brava! Excellent post!
Rosedotcom's Avatar Rosedotcom 01:00 AM 05-25-2008
Quote:
Does anyone out there think that there is just a slight possibility that parents are doing this because they honestly believe it is the healthiest option for their child?!? Not for a power trip, not because they "can", but only because they have been educated to believe that it will save their LO's from future medical problems.
Yes I do.

No I don't think it's physical & sexual abuse. My brothers are not circumcised, and the one that has children had both of his boys done. I don't know any male adult that feels violated by being circed. I don't understand when see people say they are going to get a lawyer for their nephew or family friend when they turn 18 to sue their parents. To me that is out of touch with reality.

I'm not going to get into my opinion. I come to this site because I agree with 90% of MDC's philosophies but it was made clear that they believe in not circing and my opinion doesn't belong here.

This is your safe place not a debate place, so I don't know why these threads pop up over & over.
Genesis's Avatar Genesis 01:55 AM 05-25-2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosedotcom View Post
Yes I do.

No I don't think it's physical & sexual abuse. My brothers are not circumcised, and the one that has children had both of his boys done. I don't know any male adult that feels violated by being circed. I don't understand when see people say they are going to get a lawyer for their nephew or family friend when they turn 18 to sue their parents. To me that is out of touch with reality.

I'm not going to get into my opinion. I come to this site because I agree with 90% of MDC's philosophies but it was made clear that they believe in not circing and my opinion doesn't belong here.

This is your safe place not a debate place, so I don't know why these threads pop up over & over.
So, do you believe that circumcision is okay? Why is it okay to cut off parts of someone's genitals without their consent, especially a baby's?? Nothing you or anyone else could say could EVER justify this. Period. Why don't people understand that NO ONE has the right to mutilate a baby's genitals?? I just don't understand.
Rosedotcom's Avatar Rosedotcom 02:04 AM 05-25-2008
Quote:
Nothing you or anyone else could say could EVER justify this.
I know, that's why I don't understand these threads. Opinions aren't welcome so don't ask for any. Keep it a ranting thread.
Genesis's Avatar Genesis 02:08 AM 05-25-2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosedotcom View Post
I know, that's why I don't understand these threads. Opinions aren't welcome so don't ask for any. Keep it a ranting thread.
You didn't answer my questions. Not that you are obligated to of course, but I'm just saying...

And it's not that opinions aren't welcome. But how can you justify something like MGM?
Rosedotcom's Avatar Rosedotcom 02:15 AM 05-25-2008
Do you understand that this forum is not open to much discussion other than agreeing circ is bad? I can't get into my opinion. That is why I don't understand why we end up with these type of threads. This is a forum that says circ is wrong so no one else can say much so I usually stick the rest of MDC but once in a while I'll see a thread that baffles me.

ETA the reason I say opinions aren't welcome is that I have had a mod pull a thread before because this is a non circ site.
Fyrestorm's Avatar Fyrestorm 02:37 AM 05-25-2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosedotcom View Post


Do you understand that this forum is not open to much discussion other than agreeing circ is bad?
She's right, pro can not be discussed here, because there are none! You might want to take this to PM?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosedotcom View Post
That is why I don't understand why we end up with these type of threads. This is a forum that says circ is wrong so no one else can say much so I usually stick the rest of MDC but once in a while I'll see a thread that baffles me.
These threads exist for a very simple reason...intactavists feel strongly about the horrors of baby mutilation for many different reasons. It's interesting to see those different reasons.

For me - My main reason for hating the practice of circumcision is the violation of human rights that it involves. I have 30,000 other reasons that I know it's a horror, but that is my number one reason.

For someone else, it might be the sexual assault aspect...for another, the female sexual ramifications, for another, the pain infliction.. and on and on.

It's always nice for those of us that truly understand the horror and are trying to stop it, to find not only solidarity, but different avenues of intactavism. These threads contribute understanding where we are all coming from in our outrage.

If you're not outraged by male genital mutilation...you're not paying attention!
SammyJr's Avatar SammyJr 02:40 AM 05-25-2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosedotcom View Post
Yes I do.

No I don't think it's physical & sexual abuse. My brothers are not circumcised, and the one that has children had both of his boys done. I don't know any male adult that feels violated by being circed. I don't understand when see people say they are going to get a lawyer for their nephew or family friend when they turn 18 to sue their parents. To me that is out of touch with reality.


You haven't looked very hard. I've posted in this thread about my disgust with my unwanted circumcision. There's this organization called NORM with tens of thousands of members - men who are attempting to reverse at least some of the damage caused by ignorant parents and greedy doctors. There are many vendors of foreskin restoration devices. The American circumcision rate doesn't go from 90%+ to 56% in a matter of 20 years without some men feeling violated.

But be happy in your own little world where all men are happy missing a part of their penis!
SammyJr's Avatar SammyJr 02:45 AM 05-25-2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosedotcom View Post
Do you understand that this forum is not open to much discussion other than agreeing circ is bad? I can't get into my opinion. That is why I don't understand why we end up with these type of threads. This is a forum that says circ is wrong so no one else can say much so I usually stick the rest of MDC but once in a while I'll see a thread that baffles me.
Maybe if your happy bits were on the chopping block along with mine, then we might be able to see eye to eye on this topic.

I'm glad pro-baby cutting discussion isn't allowed. Its good for ignorant "but everybody does it" types to see that everyone doesn't agree with them.
Rosedotcom's Avatar Rosedotcom 02:54 AM 05-25-2008
Quote:

You haven't looked very hard. I've posted in this thread about my disgust with my unwanted circumcision. There's this organization called NORM with tens of thousands of members -
I'm not discounting that, I'm talking about the small group of men I know of billions there are. It's anecdotal. So I don't need you to cuss at me.

Why do you think so many men circumcise their sons? Sure they can match, but they wouldn't do it if they see it as abuse or felt violated by their parents. Obviously there are men out their who do feel that way so they don't so that to their kids.

I can't justify it because many of you see it as abuse, so many other people don't.

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I'm glad pro-baby cutting discussion isn't allowed. Its good for ignorant "but everybody does it" types to see that everyone doesn't agree with them.
I have no problem with you disagreeing with me. You have a problem and are cursing and are throwing digs not discussing.

I'm just concerned about the rules and didn't want the thread to be pulled.

I do have a question. What about all the men who are circ'd are perfectly fine with it and think they will do that for their sons. Do they just not know they were abused or can they actually just be OK with what they have?
Fyrestorm's Avatar Fyrestorm 02:59 AM 05-25-2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosedotcom View Post
I do have a question. What about all the men who are circ'd are perfectly fine with it and think they will do that for their sons. Do they just not know they were abused or can they actually just be OK with what they have?
It's a sad fact that those poor men and most likely their partners really don't know what they are missing! Poor things! If they did...they would be horrified!
AntoninBeGonin's Avatar AntoninBeGonin 03:11 AM 05-25-2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosedotcom View Post
Yes I do.
Any body part can fail, any body part can have problems. Parents should not feel noble just because they're circumcising to prevent an easily treatable infection their son might get as an adult. Circumcision is unethical when there is absolutely no immediate medical reason to do so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosedotcom View Post
No I don't think it's physical & sexual abuse. My brothers are not circumcised, and the one that has children had both of his boys done.

Your brother isn't the first intact man to get swept up in circumcision propaganda. It sounds like your brother is willing to have portion of his sons' penises cut off while at the same time keeping his own penis whole. If your brother thinks that circumcision is such a good idea he needs to have his own foreskin amputated in order to match his sons. Anything less is cowardly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosedotcom View Post
I don't know any male adult that feels violated by being circed. I don't understand when see people say they are going to get a lawyer for their nephew or family friend when they turn 18 to sue their parents. To me that is out of touch with reality.
A. My husband has been restoring his foreskin for the past three years.
B. William Stowell

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosedotcom View Post
I'm not going to get into my opinion. I come to this site because I agree with 90% of MDC's philosophies but it was made clear that they believe in not circing and my opinion doesn't belong here.
If you think it's a good idea for a newborn to be strapped down while a part of his completely normal and healthy body is amputated then I suggest you do two things. One, practice your empathetic skills by putting yourself in that baby's place. How would you feel if part of your normal body was cut off at birth. Two, Let go of your preconceived notions of how much better off babies are by being circumcised and read the information on this forum.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosedotcom View Post
This is your safe place not a debate place, so I don't know why these threads pop up over & over.
Well, obviously we start them because they give us something to do.
AntoninBeGonin's Avatar AntoninBeGonin 03:18 AM 05-25-2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosedotcom View Post
I have no problem with you disagreeing with me. You have a problem and are cursing and are throwing digs not discussing.
Don't talk to my husband like that :. He didn't curse at you. He used an emoticon to express his anger at something you said.

You come on here, on our safe pro-circ free board, to offhandedly promote circ and then you act all shocked that a man who hates being circumcised took offense to your position. Well, big surprise there, eh? Look around, there are plenty of men on this site who hate being circumcised. Frankly Speaking, BM31, Dave2GA, Perspective, Sammy Jr., and I'm sure there are others.
Rosedotcom's Avatar Rosedotcom 03:22 AM 05-25-2008
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If your brother thinks that circumcision is such a good idea he needs to have his own foreskin amputated in order to match his sons. Anything less is cowardly.
He's too busy being a police office, on the narcotics team for his department, and the SWAT team to be a coward. Say what you want about me, but he is a wonderful father and no coward.
Rosedotcom's Avatar Rosedotcom 03:26 AM 05-25-2008
Quote:
Don't talk to my husband like that . He didn't curse at you. He used an emoticon to express his anger at something you said.
Calm down. I apologize. I don't know all the smilies so I put my mouse over it and it was the curse smile.

Quote:
You come on here, on our safe pro-circ free board, to offhandedly promote circ and then you act all shocked that a man who hates being circumcised took offense to your position. Well, big surprise there, eh? Look around, there are plenty of men on this site who hate being circumcised. Frankly Speaking, BM31, Dave2GA, Perspective, Sammy Jr., and I'm sure there are others.
That's fine. I said out of the small percentage of men I know out billions they didn't have a problem. Stop trying to turn everything around. You know 5 people that have a problem, I know that many and more that don't. We're even

I answered one question. Then I was told I didn't give my opinion. I made it clear we can't go in to this on this site but no one minds goading me into giving it so don't complain now.
SammyJr's Avatar SammyJr 03:35 AM 05-25-2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosedotcom View Post
Why do you think so many men circumcise their sons? Sure they can match, but they wouldn't do it if they see it as abuse or felt violated by their parents. Obviously there are men out their who do feel that way so they don't so that to their kids.
Like they say, ignorance is bliss. I didn't think circumcision was a violation until I learned about the anatomy of a normal penis and the flimsy justifications and exagerations used to sell the procedure to parents. I also started restoring and got a peak at what sex should feel like.

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I can't justify it because many of you see it as abuse, so many other people don't.
Let's compare apples to apples. Many women in the Middle East don't see a missing clitoris as an example of abuse. Since not everyone considers FGM abuse, do you also consider it not to be abuse?

And don't give me the "they're two different things" crap. I had a hunk of my junk cut off without anesthesia and so did they. Cutting a minor's private parts is cutting a minor's private parts.

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I have no problem with you disagreeing with me. You have a problem and are cursing and are throwing digs not discussing.
I take anyone who supports circumcision as a personal attack against me and all men. Offer up your genitals on a chopping block for some pervert doctor to do as he wishes and then maybe I'll respect your pro-cutting opinion on the subject a little more.

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I do have a question. What about all the men who are circ'd are perfectly fine with it and think they will do that for their sons. Do they just not know they were abused or can they actually just be OK with what they have?
Circumcised men can be happy with their state for all I care but its not right for them to make sexual decisions for their kids. There are a lot of women out there who love their clit piercings, but for some reason, they'd never consider a clit piercing for their little girls. Part of the problem is that people don't see circumcision as a sexual surgery, when it obviously involves the penis, a very sexual organ if there ever was one.

This is a sore subject for me and pro-circ or "parental choice" types rub me the wrong way.
changingseasons's Avatar changingseasons 03:35 AM 05-25-2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosedotcom View Post
Opinions aren't welcome so don't ask for any. Keep it a ranting thread.
Wow- the OP has just made your point painfully clear for us. No opinions allowed!! Apparently by saying that you don't think RIC is sexual abuse, you are now promoting RIC. It's ok.. she'll just block you like she did me, so that she doesn't have to look at any posts that disagree with her opinion.

I'm sorry people, but I thought this was a discussion board. For discussions. And I understand that many of you feel VERY strongly about this topic, but come on! When you completely disregard everyone else's opinion that might be slightly different than yours (or even the same as yours, but not as strong) you are turning people away from a discussion that they just might learn from. Why should I listen to what you have to say if you won't listen to me as well? Maybe if you want more to join your camp, you can politely explain why you are there rather than insulting them.
AntoninBeGonin's Avatar AntoninBeGonin 03:36 AM 05-25-2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosedotcom View Post
He's too busy being a police office, on the narcotics team for his department, and the SWAT team to be a coward. Say what you want about me, but he is a wonderful father and no coward. My point was not everyone sees it as abuse. You can't see that and I get that.
His being a police officer has nothing to do with his sons' penises. I still think he should have himself circumcised if he thinks it's so much better. If he's willing to deprive his sons of part of their normal penis then he needs to do the same for himself.

I feel sorry for any person who doesn't see that strapping down a human being, and cutting off part of their body is abuse. One day the fact that circumcision is a horrific human rights atrocity will be so obvious and well known that pro-circers will be too embarrassed to even share their opinion with others.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosedotcom View Post
You don't want opinions so I will bow out. You guys can go back to agreeing with each other. Just don't ask for them if you don't want to hear them.
You're the one leaving the conversation, not us. You're perfectly welcome to stick around, look through the stickies, and maybe try to actually learn something about this subject, instead of barreling in here out of nowhere, insulting people, and excusing circumcision.
Fellow Traveler's Avatar Fellow Traveler 03:40 AM 05-25-2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosedotcom View Post
I do have a question. What about all the men who are circ'd are perfectly fine with it and think they will do that for their sons. Do they just not know they were abused or can they actually just be OK with what they have?
Hopefully you haven't headed for the hills yet because I have a question. A while back there was this interesting article one of the better quotes (regarding FGM) out of that piece was:

Quote:
There is not one person here not circumcised, and it will continue", a 16-year-old secondary school Egyptian girl student commented. "No one can get married without it," said another one.
And this interesting video on youtube. The link goes to the comments so don't worry you won't have to watch the video but the comments make for an interesting read one of the better ones:

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It's fine really. I am a woman who have undergone the procedure. My clitoris is intact and I am able to achive many many orgasms! Haha.

In Brunei the procedure is done with sterilised equipment by very experienced people with minimal discomfort on the baby. So it is not sick or gross or whatever. It is perfectly safe.
And this more recent one from, and this actually surprised me (or perhaps not), an American:
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I don't think they really did anything to the baby...the baby looks comfortable at all time and not in pain...the baby would be crying and squirming if anything had been done to her
So it seems there are plenty of satisfied customers in Egypt and Brunei, perhaps other places. So does this mean we should not oppose FGM?

I am also courious as to whether you believe that circumcision is medically therapeutic? I am courious because most people who are not against circumcision either believe there is a therapeutic justification or cultural reasons are sufficient, the latter including the "its just right for our family" people.

When it comes to the latter set I have to wonder if they would be equally supportive of branding an infant or nipping off the earlobes. Presuming it was needed to satisfy the parent's cultural practices or beliefs. As a practical matter I could argue that those two acts would be less harmful than circumcision. But something tells me if the neighbors found out their expat neighbor branded their infant, CPF would be there pretty quickly. Thoughts?

:
Rosedotcom's Avatar Rosedotcom 03:52 AM 05-25-2008
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and maybe try to actually learn something about this subject, instead of barreling in here out of nowhere, insulting people, and excusing circumcision.
Don't talk to me like that. : I've been here since 2003 and read many of these threads even if I don't post. You're insulting people because they disagree with you.

BTW you catch more flies with honey when you're trying to get people to "learn".

jwhspers- I will check that out.

changingseasons - How does that ignore feature work? Or are you just on it? LOL.
SammyJr's Avatar SammyJr 03:55 AM 05-25-2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by changingseasons View Post

I'm sorry people, but I thought this was a discussion board.
It is a discussion board, but its not designated for a debate on whether RIC is good or bad. Its a discussion board for people interested in how to sway the opinions of spouses, friends, family. Its a discussion board for people interested in avoiding the manipulation of shady doctors. Its a discussion board for people who want to know how to properly care for their intact son since the medical community doesn't know how and the rest of the family cuts babies. Its the Case Against Circumcision and all topics must fall under that general category.

Its fine for people to come in ignorant but wanting to learn, but people who come in with their mind made up as pro-cutters can expect a less that cheerful welcome.
l_olive's Avatar l_olive 03:55 AM 05-25-2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosedotcom View Post
I'm not going to get into my opinion. I come to this site because I agree with 90% of MDC's philosophies but it was made clear that they believe in not circing and my opinion doesn't belong here.


Let's see if I can paraphrase.

I'm not going to get into my opinion. But let me just make it really clear that I'm completely and totally pro-circ.
AntoninBeGonin's Avatar AntoninBeGonin 03:55 AM 05-25-2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosedotcom View Post
Yes, I can excuse circumcision so I guess I have to barrel out of here.
Pro-circumcision views are not welcome on here so....

GOOD BYE!
SammyJr's Avatar SammyJr 03:58 AM 05-25-2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosedotcom View Post
Don't talk to me like that. : I've been here since 2003 and read many of these threads even if I don't post. You're insulting people because they disagree with you, I am not. Yes, I can excuse circumcision so I guess I have to barrel out of here. That doesn't mean I have read up or learned anything in my 30 years.
Since you're still pro-circ, you obviously haven't learned much on the subject.

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BTW you catch more flies with honey when you're trying to get people to "learn".
Obviously, but we can tell when people aren't interested in learning and are here just to stir the pot.
Fellow Traveler's Avatar Fellow Traveler 04:00 AM 05-25-2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosedotcom View Post
jwhspers- I will check that out.

changingseasons - How does that ignore feature work? Or are you just on it? LOL.
If you have the inclination please address the other questions too. If you want to you can take it to PM.
Rosedotcom's Avatar Rosedotcom 04:00 AM 05-25-2008
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Pro-circumcision views are not welcome on here so....
Yes I said that 5 times and people kept asking me more questions. Go back and read why I didn't want to respond


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Since you're still pro-circ, you obviously haven't learned much on the subject.
You can call me that but I am pro either. When I have a son, my mind hasn't been made up. I do know I won't get my info from people who wouldn't be my friend if I went the other way.
AntoninBeGonin's Avatar AntoninBeGonin 04:01 AM 05-25-2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosedotcom View Post
Don't talk to me like that. : I've been here since 2003 and read many of these threads even if I don't post. You're insulting people because they disagree with you, I am not. Yes, I can excuse circumcision so I guess I have to barrel out of here. That doesn't mean I have read up or learned anything in my 30 years.

BTW you catch more flies with honey when you're trying to get people to "learn".

jwhspers- I will check that out.

changingseasons - How does that ignore feature work? Or are you just on it? LOL.
Go to user CP
Scroll down to Miscellaneous
Click on Buddy/Ignore Lists
Type my user name into the little box. Viola. Have fun.
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