Pro-circ'ers comments on my intact SN child vs. my intact NT nephew - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 31 Old 05-26-2008, 12:46 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Okay, this might not come across correctly, because its kind of hard to explain. Just a bit of back story, my DS is 3yo, intact, and has special needs. My nephew is almost 10mo, intact, and neuro-typical.

First of all, the whole time I was pregnant with my DS, and for months after he was born, no one in my family ever questioned why he wasn't circ'd. It wasn't until DS was 15 months old that my mother finally said something and when I told her that we never planned on having him circ'd, she said "oh, noooo, but you have to". But I calmly explained why we weren't going to, and gave her some facts about the importance of the foreskin, and that was pretty much the end of it. And it never seemed to "bother" anyone in my extended family afterwards.

During my sister's pregnancy, and especially during her hospital stay after the baby was born, our mother (and sister's BF) begged, pleaded, and bribed her to have it done. They acted like it a was a total freaking tragedy and said he would be emotionally scarred for life (oh, the irony). And they ruined her pregnancy and what should have been the best day of her life in the process.

So, strike one.

I go to my old OB recently due to personal health problems and the topic of my sister comes up (the nurse there kind of knew about the situation between my sister and her BF because my sister was going to go to them but she didn't wind up moving here until after baby was born). So the nurse asks me, "so what ever happened between them?". I said "well, her BF bribed her and threatened her to try to get her to have him circ'd but-" and she cut me off with "well, YEAH". I said "circumcision is completely unnecessary, and my sister knows better because she's spent a lot of time around Bram and he isn't circ'd either." And she says "yeah, but its different with Bram because he was....sick". (FYI, he was never sick, she was basically using sick as a "euphemism " for retarded/deformed.)

I get the same thing from friends as well. Most of them know that DS isn't circ'd and they don't really think anything of it, because, ya know, "retarded" kids don't grow up and find a mate and have sex anyway, so what does it matter if his penis is gross? : But when I bring up the horrible things my sister's BF did to her over their baby being left intact they're all "well, she should have had that baby circ'd".

WTF?

How am I supposed to spread awareness if every person I try to educated basically says "well, ya, your kid didn't need to be circ'd anyway, but mine is perfect so mine does". :

ETA for clarification:

I am offended that anyone would suggest that my son shouldn't be circ'd (their idea of perfect) because he doesn't belong in "their" world anyway, AND that anyone would suggest that my nephew needs to be circ'd in order to fit into said world.

I know I'm not making much sense...

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#2 of 31 Old 05-26-2008, 12:50 PM
 
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ugh... I have heard some odd comments about SN kids and circ recently, one forum I am on which is pretty anti circ they were talking about this and one poster stated that they considered all SN kids should be circ'd because of ease of care. Which I felt was completely ridiculous. Everyone deserves a whole body, I didn't see why a child who has special needs should be any different. Grrrr.
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#3 of 31 Old 05-26-2008, 01:01 PM
 
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Ironically, being SN was used to justify a circumcision that I tried very hard to prevent. I was a foster care social worker before my DS was born and we had a SN infant come into care. I was partnered with another worker on this case and the subject of circumcision was asked. I compiled a lot of anti-circ evidence but my coworker argued against me and convinced my supervisor that the circ was "necessary" because this child would not be able to clean himself properly if left intact. Even now, years later, I grieve for what was done to that little boy who was already facing so many difficulties. :
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#4 of 31 Old 05-26-2008, 01:03 PM
 
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No, you're making perfect sense, it's the warped circ culture that doesn't make any sense. Like Claire and CashewMommy pointed out, the way circ twists the thinking of some they can also use SN as an excuse/justification for circ. The mass acceptance/tolerance of circ really dehumanizes the individual child and perverts the thinking of otherwise rational people. :
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#5 of 31 Old 05-26-2008, 01:16 PM - Thread Starter
 
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ugh... I have heard some odd comments about SN kids and circ recently, one forum I am on which is pretty anti circ they were talking about this and one poster stated that they considered all SN kids should be circ'd because of ease of care. Which I felt was completely ridiculous. Everyone deserves a whole body, I didn't see why a child who has special needs should be any different. Grrrr.
Yes! I've heard that side as well, which is why I've been kind of thrown off lately with all the "well he doesn't need a pretty penis anyway" comments (well, in so many words, ya know). Of course, the people around here are pro-circ for the "cosmetic" factor, so I don't know why I'm so suprised.

I mean, OBVIOUSLY, I wouldn't have my child circ'd just because he was SN, but the ease of care position makes a little more sense, or at least its a little more logical. I of course, still think its wrong no matter what, but if one didn't know anything about circ, you would think they would be more inclined to say that he *did* need to be circ'd because he wouldn't be able to care for it properly. But even if he couldn't, that doesn't matter to me. If he were a girl, I would just help with the daily hygiene routine, not start chopping off parts to make *my* life easier.

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#6 of 31 Old 05-26-2008, 01:35 PM
 
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Barf all around at those ignorant people. Geez louise, what are they issuing for brains these days??!!

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#7 of 31 Old 05-26-2008, 01:36 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Oh! And our mother said something very vulgar, and very offensive to my sister about her baby's future sex life. I can't quote her word for word, because it would be a total UAV. But it was regarding oral sex and the "fact" that no woman would ever want to do that with an intact guy.

And of course, it burns me up that she even said that to my sister, but in some twisted way it makes me mad for my own kid too. Because that shows that she obviously doesn't hold Bram to the same standard when it comes to life, period.

And its not just this one particular issue, and it goes a lot deeper than that. My DS and my nephew are the only grandchildren so far but I'm sure there are going to be many (I have 4 sisters and I know at least two of us plan on having a lot of kids). And I just hate to think that my DS will be regarded as substandard or less important in any way because he's doesn't live up to my family's idea of perfect.

I don't think of DS any differently than my nephew, or any other kid for that matter, and I know I won't think of him differently than any future children of my own. And my family shouldn't either, especially when we're talking about little babies' future sex lives, ya know???

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#8 of 31 Old 05-26-2008, 01:53 PM
 
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Thats just...ugh. Unless your son is a vegetible, all it will take is showing how to pull his foreskin back and wash under it and REMINDING him-just like you would have to a kid who was retractable. They arnt idiots, they're just, to varying degrees, slower to catch on. I dont know your son personally, but I know another little boy who is *retarded.* He basically has kept about 3-4 years behind his actual age in behavoirs/learning skills/etc. While I realise some children may be more severely affected and be like a 3 year old the rest of their lives, those are the people who will require constant supervision anyway. But if that little boy continues on-or even stays where he's at right now (he's 13 with the mental age of a 7-8 year old), he'd still be capable of cleaning himself. He just needs motivation and reminders.

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#9 of 31 Old 05-26-2008, 01:53 PM
 
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I'm really sorry that people even feel that way even more so that you are dealing with it with your own family.

OUR DAUGHTERS ARE PROTECTED SHOULDN'T OUR SONS BE TOO! :
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#10 of 31 Old 05-26-2008, 01:57 PM
 
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Oh my god Carly , it just makes me sick the way people will treat special needs kids, and the way they talk to their parents. I wish I could say your story was unbelievable, but I know by now that there are plenty of people out there who can say the utterly stupidest and cruelest things without even blinking an eye.

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#11 of 31 Old 05-26-2008, 02:43 PM
 
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Wow, people can be so cruel. I'm so sorry you had to endure ignorant, awful comments like that.
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#12 of 31 Old 05-26-2008, 03:30 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Thats just...ugh. Unless your son is a vegetible, all it will take is showing how to pull his foreskin back and wash under it and REMINDING him-just like you would have to a kid who was retractable. They arnt idiots, they're just, to varying degrees, slower to catch on. I dont know your son personally, but I know another little boy who is *retarded.* He basically has kept about 3-4 years behind his actual age in behavoirs/learning skills/etc. While I realise some children may be more severely affected and be like a 3 year old the rest of their lives, those are the people who will require constant supervision anyway. But if that little boy continues on-or even stays where he's at right now (he's 13 with the mental age of a 7-8 year old), he'd still be capable of cleaning himself. He just needs motivation and reminders.
Heh, no, the kid is actually incredibly intelligent. He has a brain malformation and a joint deformity but the only problems he really has are that he can't really speak (but knows tons of sign language) and he's just now learning how to walk (though, that has nothing to do with his brain, that's a muscle tone issue).

So who's to say he won't grow up and have a partner, ya know? And I'm confident that if he does, no woman in the 2020's will have a problem with his foreskin. But even if he doesn't have the mental capacity to be in a relationship, who cares?! That's not the end of his life and certaintly doesn't make him less of a person.

If they would just stop worrying about him being perfect for 5 seconds, they'd realize that he's happy just the way he is. >.<

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#13 of 31 Old 05-26-2008, 04:12 PM
 
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Oh! And our mother said something very vulgar, and very offensive to my sister about her baby's future sex life. I can't quote her word for word, because it would be a total UAV. But it was regarding oral sex and the "fact" that no woman would ever want to do that with an intact guy.
Seriously?!?! It sounds like your mother has some sexual hangups. What grandmother in her right mind talks about her grandchildren in a sexual manner?!?!

That is totally messed up!!!

I totally get what you are saying about Bram and the differences in her/their comments....that would bug me too.

OTOH, I would be sortof happy that your mothers' weird, twisted obsession about her grandsons and their sexual activity isn't a focus on Bram. Not because of what her insinuation means, but for worry that somehow she might scar him in the future with her comments.

To be quite honest, I would be very concerned about your nephew and how her comments are going to affect him in the future. If she is this vulgar now, there is no guessing what she is going to say in the future to him!!!

That is totally f@cked up!!!
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#14 of 31 Old 05-26-2008, 04:57 PM
 
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I can only imagine how hard it is to not only have people make such ignorant comments, but to have them feel that way about your very special little boy.
But try to look at this way. You love and nuture (and protect) him. If your extended family has no expectations for him, he is free to be to be his own person. I know it doesn't make it better, but maybe it's a silver lining.

OH! and the oral sex thing...what does your mom think women in the rest of the world do? My intact DH has never had a problem, and he grew up in America!

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#15 of 31 Old 05-26-2008, 05:07 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Seriously?!?! It sounds like your mother has some sexual hangups. What grandmother in her right mind talks about her grandchildren in a sexual manner?!?!

That is totally messed up!!!

I totally get what you are saying about Bram and the differences in her/their comments....that would bug me too.

OTOH, I would be sortof happy that your mothers' weird, twisted obsession about her grandsons and their sexual activity isn't a focus on Bram. Not because of what her insinuation means, but for worry that somehow she might scar him in the future with her comments.

To be quite honest, I would be very concerned about your nephew and how her comments are going to affect him in the future. If she is this vulgar now, there is no guessing what she is going to say in the future to him!!!

That is totally f@cked up!!!

I know! My jaw hit the ground when my sister told me that. And even my mom's twin sister (who is also mostly pro-circ, just because she doesn't know anything about foreskin) went "WTF?" when I repeated it to her.

I don't think we have anything to worry about *now* though... She only made those comments while my sister was pregnant but once the baby was home from the hospital they (mom and sister's BF) realized that there was no going back and Gavin would stay intact. So now neither one of them has anything negative to say about him (thankfully).

I'm pretty sure my mom doesn't go around bragging about having two intact grandsons to anyone but at least she doesn't comment on it anymore, period.

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OH! and the oral sex thing...what does your mom think women in the rest of the world do? My intact DH has never had a problem, and he grew up in America!
She's just ignorant! She was with 50+ men before she met my step-dad (most in her teen years) and she *says* all of them were circ'd. So she thinks that because none of them had any problem, then circ'd must be better. But seeing as how a good chunk of those were probably one night stands, I'm willing to bet at least a few of those were intact and she just didn't realize it!

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I'm really sorry. People suck :
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#17 of 31 Old 05-26-2008, 05:20 PM
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But it was regarding oral sex and the "fact" that no woman would ever want to do that with an intact guy.
I WOULD! (and I am HOT and very picky when it comes to men LOL!)
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#18 of 31 Old 05-26-2008, 06:59 PM
 
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Do these people have any sort of education? I guess not; find a new crowd of people and thumbs up for your sister. If any one is educated, they won't make comments like that. What you described is disgusting with the bribery and everything!
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OMG that is horrible!! I can't believe people actually SAID that to your face!! People don't think sometimes, there all idiots.

But YAY on your intact son and nephew!!
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#20 of 31 Old 05-26-2008, 08:15 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Do these people have any sort of education? I guess not; find a new crowd of people and thumbs up for your sister. If any one is educated, they won't make comments like that. What you described is disgusting with the bribery and everything!
Yep... Her BF actually offered her MONEY to have him circ'd and told her that he would let her name the baby whatever she wanted and "let" her breastfeed if she let him make that one choice.

Its so rediculous it still makes me LOL.

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#21 of 31 Old 05-26-2008, 08:39 PM
 
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Your post made perfect sense. It's crazy isn't it? And from your description of your son, it sounds like he's going to become an adult with plenty of opportunity to find someone he loves and get married. How ridiculous for people to assume he wouldn't.

I worry my DD won't but I won't ASSUME anything at this point...she still has so much potential and there's just no way of knowing how she will progress and what she will be able to do! So I don't plan my life assuming she she won't ever get married and have sex. Not that that is good reason to justify circ'ing boys, but you know what I mean.

That's so sad that they think he's "allowed" to have a "gross" penis.

Make sure they don't ever say anything like that in front of him. He sounds like a perfectly intelligent little boy who would understand every word.
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#22 of 31 Old 05-26-2008, 08:40 PM
 
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Yep... Her BF actually offered her MONEY to have him circ'd and told her that he would let her name the baby whatever she wanted and "let" her breastfeed if she let him make that one choice.

Its so rediculous it still makes me LOL.

Oh and kudos to your sis! She's awesome!
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#23 of 31 Old 05-26-2008, 08:42 PM
 
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Yep... Her BF actually offered her MONEY to have him circ'd and told her that he would let her name the baby whatever she wanted and "let" her breastfeed if she let him make that one choice.

Its so rediculous it still makes me LOL.
let?!?
nobody "lets" me do anything. so glad she stuck to her guns.

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#24 of 31 Old 05-26-2008, 09:28 PM
 
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SN adults can go on to experience love and sex. I remember the '80s ABC drama 'Life Goes On' about a 16-year-old Down Syndrome boy named Corky (as played by Chris Burke). It was truly a groundbreaking series showing the ups and downs of having a SN child. And as the years went on, Corky met and fell in love with another DS girl, who ended up marrying towards the end of the series. I don't recall how they dealt with the matter of sex, but I recall it was dealt w/ in a logical, compassionate matter.

Do they still do forced sterilizations on SN children to prevent them from having children?

It's sickening how circumcising countries "think". They say you should circumcise to prevent "infections" of SN BOYS (notice they don't mention girls!) because they think they won't be able to take care of themselves, then your post proves they think the other way where they think your son isn't... uh, "fit enough" (?) to join their club of cutters! Geez, you can't win w/ these people and there seems to be noooooo sensibility to the diehards.
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#25 of 31 Old 05-26-2008, 10:21 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Oh and kudos to your sis! She's awesome!
She is!

And I don't mean to say that teen moms who get preggo unexpectantly are never good moms, obviously - but its a lot more common (at least around here) for moms who are young and/or get pregnant unexpectantly to just go with whatever their mom tells them to do or whatever is conventional when it comes to parenting. (Or, even more common, they just hand Jr. over to grandma to raise.) But she is 100% commited to her babe and did tons of research before she decided anything - he's intact, unvaxed, they co-sleep, etc. And she plans to nurse at *least* until 2yo. You don't see that around here, period! I'm soooo proud of her.

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let?!?
nobody "lets" me do anything. so glad she stuck to her guns.


I know, right? Especially if we're talking about FEEDING your kid???
My sister looked him right in the face, laughed, and said "are you freakin' kidding me?? They're my boobs!".

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#26 of 31 Old 05-28-2008, 02:59 PM
 
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Carly, I'm so sorry about all the negative comments and innuendos that you have had to endure - There are just a lot of ignorant people out there. Hugs to you.

Your sister is great - she is obviously a very clear thinking and logical person. I hate to say it , but I think she needs a different BF. He does not seem to be in the least interested in her needs and desires. Or of the wellfare of their little boy for that matter.
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#27 of 31 Old 05-28-2008, 04:31 PM
 
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My sister looked him right in the face, laughed, and said "are you freakin' kidding me?? They're my boobs!".
good for her. she sounds like she has a good head on her shoulders and a backbone to match!

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#28 of 31 Old 05-28-2008, 04:56 PM
 
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wow I am so sorry your mom is treating you both that way, that is so rude Have you tried to gather information and give it to her?

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#29 of 31 Old 05-28-2008, 11:39 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Carly, I'm so sorry about all the negative comments and innuendos that you have had to endure - There are just a lot of ignorant people out there. Hugs to you.

Your sister is great - she is obviously a very clear thinking and logical person. I hate to say it , but I think she needs a different BF. He does not seem to be in the least interested in her needs and desires. Or of the wellfare of their little boy for that matter.
Oh, ITA... He's a lot better about it now though, so I've heard. Only a few months after their baby was born, his brother and SIL had a baby (they circ'd him right after birth even though he has a congenital heart defect, started giving him juice at 4 weeks old, was only BF part time for the first few months, and they started force feeding him solids at 4mo). The difference between them health-wise is sooo obvious. So now my sister's BF is very pro-BF'ing. Seeing is believing, that's for sure.

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Originally Posted by robertandenith View Post
wow I am so sorry your mom is treating you both that way, that is so rude Have you tried to gather information and give it to her?
I have... She's so stubborn though, and doesn't want to hear any of it. She thinks she knows it all because she has 5 kids (all girls and all NT).

Carly [29] + DH [27] + DS [9]

TTC my second and his first!

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#30 of 31 Old 05-30-2008, 08:27 AM
 
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carley
you are amazing you should be so proud of yourself for making such great choices for your son. And for setting such a great example for your sister too. I think that your son is lucky to have you as his mama. I grew up in a family with lots of SN adults that were foster kids to my aunt and uncle and they all had jobs had lives and were happy just knowing that people around them loved them. I hope that helps you a little bit to know that yes they may have been SN but they taught each of us so many lessons everyday on love patience and just how to deal with life in ways so many people would never be lucky enough to know about
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