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#31 of 49 Old 10-14-2003, 09:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by merpk


I won't engage in "religious discussion" that is against the rules of the forum. I will, however, remind you that respectful argument is going to sway people to your point of view, barbs and sarcasm and insults will not.
Believe it or not, that WAS my best attempt at respect regarding this issue. As an English major, I have spent countless hours studying the ways in which people use words. I do see it as mere semantics. IMHO, violations of human rights should always be outlawed, regardless of whether or not they pertain to a particular faith. So, yes, I will just say it out in the open--I think ALL circs should be illegal.

I'm glad you don't expect tolerance here. We have very little of it (well, speaking for myself, anyway.)
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#32 of 49 Old 10-14-2003, 09:43 PM
 
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Oh and regarding religious discussion isn this forum...we all know it is not allowed. Also

On the other hand this forum is also not intended to be a place for the defense of religious circumcision.........

The board is meant to support NOT circumcisizing. Though I hesitate to discourage anyone from posting in this forum, posts in defense of religion seem to only spark debate just as religiously criticial posts do.

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#33 of 49 Old 10-14-2003, 09:46 PM
 
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wow, y'all.

I had to totally gut all the meaning out of a thread I started recently for even MENTIONING the CONCEPT of Jewish circumcision, and here is this big fat heated discussion.


I just wanted to respond to the OP.. and say:
:Puke
I can't believe anyone thinks anything about circ is funny.
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#34 of 49 Old 10-14-2003, 10:32 PM
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And yes, I agree that the "how" and "why" are very different, but the "what" remains the same.

Frank, you have made some good points (as usual).
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#35 of 49 Old 10-15-2003, 01:25 AM
 
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:sigh

Ilaria, I have not ever ever ever looked to this forum for any sort of support at all for bris milah. And if you'll reread my posts in this thread, you'll see that they didn't ask for support either. At all. Nothing like it. It started out on-topic of the TV show, stating my having been insulted/offended by it, too, albeit for different reasons (which another poster recognized, thank you ) and then ended up responding to one poster's specifically ritually-aimed wisecracks/comments.

asherah, this isn't supposed to be a heated discussion about anything. I was trying to agree with folks while stating different reasons for the agreed-upon offense; one poster acknowledged this, and everyone else seems to want to jump on me anyway.

Frank, thank you for your (as always) thoughtfully considered response. Will note for point of information that Sweden, which currently has legislation pending to outlaw all circumcision for any reason, only has Jews and Muslims circumcizing at all. So it doesn't seem to matter who in the population is doing it, if there is the legislative will.

I can't speak to what happened at the LLL convention, heard about it just yesterday, and it does sound disappointing, and at the very least, violates First Amendment free speech yaddayaddayadda. Would write LLL letters of protest, were I y'all.

This argument ...
Quote:
... by you ... this type of tactic will have a very negative impact on the views of non-Jews of Jews and will notch up the fight instead of stopping it ...
... is not a new one at all. It comes up all the time relating to all sorts of issues. Fascinating argument. Will leave it at that.


Quote:
... by Frank again Basically what I am saying is if you want to keep your ritual, either join us in stopping it for all others or decline to participate in the discussion. This will foster a cultural change and will not percipitate a legislative change. Continuing to debate the issue is likely to cause a backlash against Jews or ritual circumcisions and I don't think either of us want that.
Ummmmmm ... as previously stated in this thread, for myself and others, there is lots of support against RIC. I was "joining you in stopping it," and was not looking to participate in the discussion until someone got all wise-a** on me. Not debating at all.

And the "backlash" against ritual bris milah, as you've all stated so succinctly, is already here, as you've all stated so honestly that you're agitating for legislative action against it.

And about that "backlash" against Jews ...
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#36 of 49 Old 10-15-2003, 09:10 AM
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I don't like being called a wise-a** unless I'm actually being a wise-a**. (Which I specifically refrained from being. I have much to say in the wise-a** department., which I will refrain from actually saying.)

Circ is sad, IMHO, regardless of who does it and why it's done. You can call the procedure/ritual what you want. It remains the same. Perhaps the adults in the room feel better about it, but the baby still lost his foreskin. And EVERY TIME you come to this forum and say that it is different, I will be here to disagree.

I know what it's like to believe in a faith so strongly and then one day have to wonder whether or not my beliefs are in accordance with human dignity. It's a tough paradigm shift, and I wonder whether or not that contributes to your agitation. (Ducking, now).
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#37 of 49 Old 10-15-2003, 09:48 AM
 
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... by mamajulie
... I don't like being called a wise-a** unless I'm actually being a wise-a**...

Mere semantics.



And my only agitation is because of people here imputing meaning to my posts that aren't remotely relevant.

Glad that you were able to get out of the faith system that made you feel unnatural and undignified, mamajulie. It is a major paradigm shift, agreed, that is life-affirming, isn't it? I know. I've been there.
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#38 of 49 Old 10-15-2003, 06:12 PM
 
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Amy:

I’m not sure if you are aware of all of the information about the issue in Sweden. If you are, please forgive me while I fill others in.

First, what happened: A Muslim family gave their son a “kitchen table” circumcision and the child either died or almost did. It made the news and there was an uproar that resulted in legislation being proposed that licensed medical personnel be present at all future circumcisions. That’s it. I don’t know if it passed or not but whether it did or not is irrevelant. It is a well reasoned proposal for the safety of the child. There was very little opposition form the Muslim community but the Jewish community raised quite a stink. There was also a proposal to make all non-indicated circumcisions in Sweden illegal but it got almost no support in their legislative body.

This illustrates exactly what I was saying. In Sweden, the Jews and Muslims comprise about 1% of the population and as I understand in the US Jews comprise about 3% of the population. They are nearly equal. Sweden has a culture of not circumcising and as a result, minor action was taken to address this one issue. If the US were to change it’s culture to non-circumcising, the situation would be the same here. As long as the safety and welfare of the child is taken care of, there’s not going to be much of a movement to pass legislation against ritual circumcision.

This is how Jews can help us and help themselves. By assisting in a cultural change, the ritual of circumcision will be safe. However, I see more and more evidence that the Jews are fighting this tooth and nail. I see it on debate boards. I see it in false and misleading websites owned by Jews. I see it in false and misleading “research” sponsored by Jews. I see it in boycotts used to blackmail organizations. In fighting in this manner, the Jews are turning the rest of us non-Jews against the Jews. That kind of action will result in a fight for legislation that totally outlaws circumcisions for anything much as FGM has been outlawed totally. This is a fight that the Jews will have a hard time winning because of the difference in the size of the Jewish and non-Jewish population.

So, to repeat myself, it will be much more productive for the Jews to join us or at the least, not fight us. If our feet are held to the fire, we will go for legal action whether it is through the legislature or through the courts. However, the quickest and least expensive way and the way that will leave the fewest dead bodies (figuratively speaking) is for us to join hands or at least not lock horns to facilitate a cultural change. It has worked in every other English speaking country in the world. It can happen in America if we will just let it. Every where else in the world, circumcision has come to an end or nearly come to an end and there have been no laws banning it. That can be done here too.




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#39 of 49 Old 10-16-2003, 01:50 AM
 
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Frank, thanks for posting your thoughts.

Am finding your paragraph about the perfidies of the Jews fascinating. And in the rationale of what's "turning the non-Jews against the Jews."



Will leave all that alone and let it stand for what it is.







As far as medical personnel being around at bris milah, why would that be something anyone should support? How would that make anything safer for anybody?


Anyway, I'm sure you're not advocating for that, right? Why would you want doctors making money off circumcisions that they otherwise have nothing to do with? Surely you can't mean that you think that's better?


Knew about the story in Sweden. Horrible, truly. Not sure what relevance that has to bris milah, either, though.


Do wish that this wasn't the topic of discussion, but since it was the OP ...
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#40 of 49 Old 10-16-2003, 06:14 AM
 
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I had to go look up "perfidies." You're using a 50 cent word on a guy with a 10 cent vocabulary.


Medical personel at a surgical procedure is just an act of caution. Mohels have little to no training past the circumcision procedure itself and there are unexpected outcomes occasionally. Babies hearts stop beating and they stop breathing and they have episodes of hemorraging. Having equipment to address these events is just reasonable caution. The difference between having the equipment and personnel on site instead of an ambulance ride away could mean the difference between life and death. Every other circumcision procedure has these safeguards in place and is even required by law. Why should ritual circumcisions have an exception? Is the life of a Jewish baby not worth a little extra cost for a nurse to be present? You are aware that mohels do not have medical malpractice insurance aren't you? The nurse could be in another room during the procedure and when complete, she could do a quick inspection and be gone. She certainly would not be an interference in the ceremony.

Amy, you surprise me. You are reinforcing the stereotypes of Jews! Worried about the cost of a nurse being in attendance? Come on now! There are companies that supply visiting nurses located every where at a cost that would even be acceptable to Jews!




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#41 of 49 Old 10-16-2003, 12:36 PM
 
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Uhhhh ... Frank, I enjoy letting your posts stand for themselves, Frank. Really, I do.







Anyway ... have heard of only one incidence of complication of a bris in my entire life. One. That's it. And most traditional Jews have heard of absolutely no complications. Zero. And the particular mohel who did that bris should have retired long before ... and the complication was entirely cosmetic, and unfortunately, that bris was my nephew's, but that's another story.

Maybe there are less complications during brisim because traditional mohels are true specialists ... the very traditional ones may do literally thousands of them a year. That's all they do. As opposed to a doctor who may do, what, tops, 50 a year.

And the Jewish procedures to calm the babies and the difference in the actual performance of the procedure ... including the baby sucking on a wine-covered cloth, holding the baby in someone's arms during the procedure, no clamps, and giving the baby to the mother to nurse immediately following ... may also have something to do with the lack of extreme complications such as those you mentioned.


Granted, there are brisim that are not like the traditional ones I describe ... the one in the OP in particular ...





Before anyone jumps all over me, here's the disclaimer: I'm not defending anything or looking for support for anything or anything. I am specifically answering Frank's comments about potential complications for a bris.




And his insinuations about me being cheap ... :LOL but of course, after I'm done running the banks and plotting the new world order, I've got to save some money somewhere, right?

:LOL

Thanks, Frank. I needed that ...

:LOL
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#42 of 49 Old 10-16-2003, 01:42 PM
 
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I'm glad you can laugh Amy. Frank that statement is stunning both for it's ugliness and the level of ignorance it displays.
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#43 of 49 Old 10-16-2003, 02:17 PM
 
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Here is the Swedish law regarding circumcision:


A boy under the age of two months old may be circumcised by a person who is not a registered physician provided that person has obtained special authorization from the National Board of Health and Welfare

No boy may be circumcised without an anaesthetic, which must be administered either by a registered physician or by a registered nurse


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1572483.stm


I think this is just prudent. It is just common sense that no sentient being should have to undergo surgery without anesthesia; I can't believe this even needed to be made law, and very saddened that the majority of circumcision in the US are done without any pain relief.

I am curious as to why Jewish people would object to this law.


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#44 of 49 Old 10-16-2003, 05:19 PM
 
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Kim, my understanding is that the current Swedish law was arrived at after the Muslim and Jewish communities jointly and together worked to make it something acceptable to those for whom it was relevant; ie., Muslims and Jews.

Considering that nobody else in Sweden circumcises, and that the original proposed law was to ban the procedure entirely in any circumstance at all ... I'm not sure that anyone is objecting to it.

Any complaints that remain would be only to government intrusion in religious practice ... which is understandable. Or at least we Americans claim to understand separation of church and state as such ...
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#45 of 49 Old 10-16-2003, 06:08 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Frankly Speaking


Amy, you surprise me. You are reinforcing the stereotypes of Jews! Worried about the cost of a nurse being in attendance? Come on now! There are companies that supply visiting nurses located every where at a cost that would even be acceptable to Jews!




Frank
\


that's not funny. frankly, its disgusting.
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#46 of 49 Old 10-16-2003, 08:24 PM
 
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Amy:

I have heard of one death, one partial amputation of the glans and one case of severe hemorraging. Considering the secrecy about this, the fact that the complications are not separated out by religion and the small size of the jewish population, I suspect that complications of ritual circumcisions just about match those of the population in general if not higher. In other words, much too high. There is also the case of the Mohel who was caught D.U.I driving from one bris to another.

And before anyone starts screaming anti-semitism, . . . . . Just forget it.





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#47 of 49 Old 10-16-2003, 08:31 PM
 
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understand separation of church and state as such ...
The separation of Church and State wouldn't allow me to sacrifice goats or walk around the streets naked, if my religion asked me to do so (just examples off the top of my head).
Just because something may be part of a religion, it doesn't mean that it should be allowed by the gov't.

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#48 of 49 Old 10-16-2003, 08:44 PM
 
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Excuse me, Ilaria. Adherents of Santeria perform animal sacrifices. There is also a holiday when Muslims perform sacrifices. In the case of the Muslim holiday, the animals are (according to my understanding) properly butchered and eaten ... or given to charity, not sure which ... but anyway, point of fact, they do happen.

But anyway, a several-thousand-year-old tradition is kind of hard for a government to stop entirely. Can you think of another example of something this ancient?

Not knowing the history of female circumcision, but knowing that the cultures that follow this practice also don't have a written tradition/record of when it began ... or how it began ... or how to perform it ... so we don't know. Well, anyway, will have to look around sometime and find that out.




Frank, the DUI mohel was not an Orthodox mohel. I can't speak to otherly-denominated mohelim or brisim, as they are not as ... let's say experienced ... as the Orthodox ones. Just purely because of family size as it relates to numbers of boys born ...

You know what? There's a Jewish tradition not to eat chicken the afternoon before the Yom Kippur fast begins, so that you won't choke on a bone and die before you have your last opportunity to recite the ritual viduy, or confession. Don't know why your examples of complications made me think of that ...




And nobody has screamed those words, Frank. As a matter of fact, I'm bending over backwards not to.

As I said, your posts speak for themselves.



Glad to see other mamas also see that they speak for themselves.

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#49 of 49 Old 10-16-2003, 08:49 PM
 
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Excuse me, Ilaria. Adherents of Santeria perform animal sacrifices.
ANd those are not punishable by law?
Either way, like I said, mine were simply examples...my point being that just because a religion might dictate you do something, the gov't will not just sit there and let you do it in all cases.

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