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#1 of 49 Old 10-06-2003, 12:06 AM - Thread Starter
 
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my dh saw this when i was making dinner, so it's not first-hand, but he got pissed enough, i wanted to share.

the ubiquitous bris video (no, no fainters this time) had the 4 yr old brother being held up to watch his baby brother's circ... as the mohel prepared to cut, the little boy cried out, 'no! don't do it!'
the adults all laughed at him.

wow, that's hysterical. can't imagine how that missed the 10 grand prize.

(um, this isn't considered 'religious discussion' just for mentioning circ in the bris context, right? 'cause if my jewish dh doesn't have the right to object, i don't know who does.)

that poor little boy- that poor baby.

suse
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#2 of 49 Old 10-06-2003, 12:18 AM
 
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from the mouths of babes


10 - boy
5.5 - girl
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#3 of 49 Old 10-06-2003, 06:47 AM
 
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That child's reaction is the normal reaction. We must be conditioned to reject that reaction and suppress it.




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#4 of 49 Old 10-06-2003, 12:38 PM
 
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Oh yeah, that's really funny!
Would they have shown the same if it had FGM in AFrica?

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#5 of 49 Old 10-06-2003, 02:24 PM
 
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I saw that too. Isn't it funny that a four year old has more of a sense of compassion than anyone else there?

Tara

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#6 of 49 Old 10-06-2003, 02:51 PM
 
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Pshew- I sure am glad that I tuned in late! I think I would have barfed with nerves.

Two weeks ago I think it was there was another circ joke on AFV... it was not a part of the video, but a joke from the host, I was in the other room- so I din't see what the kid did that was the prompt for the "funny" comment (I'm assuming it was a crotch grab)

*the Dr. called... he said we have to do the circumcision again..."*

Ha ha... how many times DOES that call get placed?

And... think about it- the JOKE was based on having to do a second circumcision... not a first one... I mean- the same expression reaction would have sufficed if the "joke" (not funny) was, "The Dr. called and he said we have to circumcise you!" but apparently in AFV land- all the boys ARE already circumcised- so you can't make a joke about having to circumcise a boy the first time, you have to circumcise him a SECOND time. UGH!

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#7 of 49 Old 10-07-2003, 01:06 AM - Thread Starter
 
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my thought too, ilaria. i would be inclined to write them and tell them the exact same thing. (i'd feel weird because i didn't see it, but i will ask my dh to do so. i'm sure most people would get a 'oh, they're just anti-semetic' brush-off from the producers, but perhaps coming from someone with a pretty obviously jewish last name it will make them think for 5 seconds.)

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#8 of 49 Old 10-07-2003, 01:43 AM
 
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I'd be annoyed by that video, too. (Notwithstanding the fact that someone held up someone else to see the bris, that tells me that they're not particularly deeply connected to the ritual aspects of bris milah. But that's not the source of my annoyance ...)

And having a Jewish name has no bearing on your view of this. I am offended by their showing the video because it ridicules a deeply-held part of my faith. And think the showing of it is more "anti-Semitic" than any complaints about it would be. As I felt about the infamous "Seinfeld" bris episode ...

The comment about "the child having more of a sense of compassion than anyone else there" did disturb me, though. Have found a lot of anti-circ people (and some of my best friends are, to coin a phrase) in the world have a lot less compassion for a lot of other things. And most traditional observers of bris milah are not in any way "pro-circ," they're pro bris milah.

So please, let's not judge someone's heart by the contents of their (or their sons') underwear.
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#9 of 49 Old 10-07-2003, 03:08 PM
 
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Quote:
[
The comment about "the child having more of a sense of compassion than anyone else there" did disturb me, though. Have found a lot of anti-circ people (and some of my best friends are, to coin a phrase) in the world have a lot less compassion for a lot of other things. And most traditional observers of bris milah are not in any way "pro-circ," they're pro bris milah.

So please, let's not judge someone's heart by the contents of their (or their sons') underwear. [/B]
I'm sorry I offended you by my comment. I was just meaning the people laughing at the time of the bris (at the childs comment) were showing a lack of compassion towards the baby involved. Although I still don't agree with circumcision of any type (religious or not) I did not mean to say that the people themselves were lacking compassion because they were involved in a bris, just that in that particular situation they were.

Did not mean to offend sorry,
Tara

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#10 of 49 Old 10-07-2003, 11:22 PM
 
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My 13 and 9 year olds LOVE to watch AFV, so I usually watch it with them. I'm glad we missed this particular episode, but it seems pretty typical for that show doesn't it? My kids have noticed their penis obsession enough to mention it several times. THey just LOVE those shots in the crotch a little TOO much, don't they? Then add in these circumcision incidents. It looks like somebody at that show thinks about male genitalia a little TOO much, and with more than a little hostility. We could do quite the armchair psychoanalysis here.
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#11 of 49 Old 10-08-2003, 01:18 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by suseyblue
. . . but perhaps coming from someone with a pretty obviously jewish last name it will make them think for 5 seconds.
Quote:
Originally posted by merpk
And having a Jewish name has no bearing on your view of this.


Play nice . . .

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#12 of 49 Old 10-08-2003, 06:24 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by alissakae
We could do quite the armchair psychoanalysis here.
"We could do quite the armchair psychoanalysis" . . .

edited cuz ah missed a "sis"
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#13 of 49 Old 10-09-2003, 12:06 AM - Thread Starter
 
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i don't know if i missed something here (was the 'playing nice' directed to me?), but i just meant that people who might be inclined to judge an unfavorable letter to their show regarding a bris as simply coming from antisemites, might be forced to rethink their position.

people do protest circumcision for humanitarian reasons instead, and i thought my husband sending the letter would eliminate any confusion as to motive on his part. our last name IS unambiguously jewish- was there a problem in referencing this? it is disingenuous to suggest that no one would notice, in the context of a comment regarding a bris.

amy and i are both offended (albeit for different reasons) by the show. *that* we agree on!

(ps, completely OT- there are fetish sites that keep clips of all the groin mashing incidents- since i found this out i have a harder time watching them with the same sense of happy innocence )

suse
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#14 of 49 Old 10-09-2003, 11:24 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by merpk
And having a Jewish name has no bearing on your view of this.
It was this comment that made us

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#15 of 49 Old 10-10-2003, 07:40 PM
 
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OT but AFHV is pretty "into" physical pain. Cute kids and pets aside, there is A LOT of nut cracking on that show. Always seems weird to me. Am I really supposed to laugh at people getting hurt?!

But the pets and kids are cute . . .
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#16 of 49 Old 10-11-2003, 11:00 AM
 
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I wince a LOT when watching that show. And I don't THINK I'm ruining it for the kids, but I make a LOT of comments like "how do you think he felt?"
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#17 of 49 Old 10-11-2003, 04:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by merpk


And most traditional observers of bris milah are not in any way "pro-circ," they're pro bris milah.

Mere semantics.
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#18 of 49 Old 10-11-2003, 06:01 PM
 
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#19 of 49 Old 10-13-2003, 08:57 PM
 
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Quote:
... by mamajulie
... Mere semantics.
No, it's not mere semantics. Please don't make assumptions when it's not a concept you're familiar with.

Speaking for myself and dozens of people I know, we are strongly anti-circumcision for any nonreligious reason. We all advocate against it with people we know who have no reason to follow the mitzva of brit milah. And we are all outspoken on the subject.

One has nothing to do with the other, in both the way it is performed, and in the reason it is performed.

I won't engage in "religious discussion" that is against the rules of the forum. I will, however, remind you that respectful argument is going to sway people to your point of view, barbs and sarcasm and insults will not.
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#20 of 49 Old 10-13-2003, 11:03 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by merpk
Have found a lot of anti-circ people (and some of my best friends are, to coin a phrase) in the world have a lot less compassion for a lot of other things.
I think the phrase is already in circulation.

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#21 of 49 Old 10-14-2003, 12:57 PM
 
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RE: "One has nothing to do with the other, in both the way it is performed, and in the reason it is performed."


I have painters here this week painting my house. It doesn't matter if they brush, roll or spray, the end result is the same. Going back to historical documents it is well established the practice was started in the two different areas and cultures for the same reason. That is to impose sexual damage on the male. Just like my house being painted, I don't see the difference. The end result is the same and the reason is the same.

Denial is a wonderful thing. It allows us to justify anything.



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#22 of 49 Old 10-14-2003, 01:04 PM
 
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Dear Frank:

"Never underestimate the power of denial."
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#23 of 49 Old 10-14-2003, 01:14 PM
 
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One has nothing to do with the other, in both the way it is performed, and in the reason it is performed
Both rip off, cut and remove the foreskin, though, right? So, the result is the same.
Personally, I don't care WHY and HOW it is performed-mutilation of an infant is always wrong! I will never agree with FGM in Africa either, as much as history and tradition are used to justify it.

And, obvioulsy, little children like the one in the OP, who know nothing about history, tradition or religion can see things for what they are. It's refreshing.

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#24 of 49 Old 10-14-2003, 02:39 PM
 
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Will not continue the off-topic discussion. No tolerance here, none was expected.

Will only repeat: Barbs and insults will not change any views, and only serve to turn off "wafflers."

If you are agitating and advocating for making all circumcision illegal ... including that done for religious reasons ... it would be good to state it in the open. Really, it would be more honest.
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#25 of 49 Old 10-14-2003, 02:53 PM
 
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Dear Ilaria,

At birth the foreskin is usually fastened tightly to the head of the penis. The foreskin must be ripped forcibly away very much like removing a finger nail.

Off Topic - Limit time spent with people who lack compassion.
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#26 of 49 Old 10-14-2003, 06:51 PM
 
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Entirely T

Quote:
... by Last Minute
... I think the phrase is already in circulation.


Just to clarify that ... which is also clarifiable in Reading Comprehension 101 ... the "to coin a phrase" referred to the first part of the parenthetical ... as in "some of my best friends are." And obviously that's already extant in the idiom, or as you might say, "the phrase is already in circulation." So you might also say I was being ... let's say ... facetious.

backatcha
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#27 of 49 Old 10-14-2003, 07:18 PM
 
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Originally posted by merpk
One has nothing to do with the other, in both the way it is performed, and in the reason it is performed.
Both have the same end result.
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#28 of 49 Old 10-14-2003, 07:52 PM
 
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Amy:

This is a change that is going to come about and it is going to come about rather rapidly. There are two ways that it can happen, either by cultural change or by legislative change. Cultural change will leave room for ritual circumcision and at the worst will take the pressure off of Jewish parents to follow the ritual. The other course of action is legislative change and if that happens, there will be no room for ritual circumcision.

More and more, I see Jews taking a hard line in this issue and fighting the cultural change tooth and nail. The more successful they are, the more likely that this will be done by legislative change which will leave no wiggle room for ritual circumcisions. A prime example of this is the recent protest by Jews against NOCIRC having a table at the recent Le Leche League convention. The Jewish protesters threatened a boycott of the convention if NOCIRC had a table. As a result, NOCIRC's fee was returned and they were not allowed to participate. This type of tactic will have a very negative impact on the views of non-Jews of Jews and will notch up the fight instead of stopping it.

The best course of action for the interests of Jews will be to suport us in making a cultural change, leaving the ritual free of legislative restrictions. This is what has happened in all other formerly circumcising countries. Because it is only Jews and Muslims (for the most part) that are circumcising, it is a non-issue and highly unlikely there will ever be a legislative restriction in those countries.

Basically what I am saying is if you want to keep your ritual, either join us in stopping it for all others or decline to participate in the discussion. This will foster a cultural change and will not percipitate a legislative change. Continuing to debate the issue is likely to cause a backlash against Jews or ritual circumcisions and I don't think either of us want that.




Frank
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#29 of 49 Old 10-14-2003, 07:58 PM
 
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Double post - Sorry!
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#30 of 49 Old 10-14-2003, 09:17 PM
 
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Quote:
No tolerance here, none was expected.
Are you talking to me? If so, you're right, I don't have much tolerance for infant mutilation, footbinding or any other practice that I find unacceotable. No matter what the 'reasons' are.

Quote:
Barbs and insults will not change any views, and only serve to turn off "wafflers."
I , perosnally, wasn't trying to change any views, just expressing my opinion that circumcision is circumcision-no matter what it's called and why and how it's done. I don't discriminitae between different types of mutilation-all are not acceptable to me.


Quote:
If you are agitating and advocating for making all circumcision illegal ... including that done for religious reasons ... it would be good to state it in the open. Really, it would be more honest
I still don't know if you're talking to me, but if you are, I have no problem stating that of course circumcision should be made illegal!

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