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#1 of 50 Old 06-30-2008, 03:11 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Didn't someone post an article that rebuttled the HIV argument...i can't find it. I am having a debate with a g/f of mine, she has no kids yet, but thats when I like to get them. anyhow she keeps coming back to the HIV argument, I have nothing to back this really....anyone?
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#2 of 50 Old 06-30-2008, 03:16 PM
 
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The new issue of Mothering magazine has a great article about Circ NOT preventing HIV. I just wanted to share in case you would like an article on paper to show your friend. It may be a bit more convincing than an article online in some cases.

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#3 of 50 Old 06-30-2008, 04:29 PM
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Worth while mentioning most recent scientists discovery that Langerhans cells that are present in the foreskin are behave as ‘natural barrier’ to HIV.
Bellow are the links.

http://www.womenshealth.gov/news/english/602421.htm
http://body.aol.com/news/articles/_a...28234109990019
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...030500357.html
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=17334373

Another study shows no HIV protection from circumcision
http://www.jaids.org/pt/re/jaids/abs...195628!8091!-1

Outside of Israel, the U.S. is the 2nd highest circumcising country in the world and after Africa, has the 2nd highest infection rate. Plus the fact that more than 80% of the world's men are "uncircumcised" and countries in Europe have an extremely low HIV+ rate.
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#4 of 50 Old 06-30-2008, 06:53 PM
 
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If the African studies applied to developed countries, then one would assume that Europe would have the highest rate of HIV, since they have the highest rate of intact males. In fact, Europe has quite a low HIV rate.

However, the U.S. has the highest rate of both STDs (including HIV and AIDS) AND circumcision.

Simply looking at that, it doesn't add up.

Have her read some of these studies:

http://www.futuremedicine.com/doi/fu...469600.2.3.193

While scientists and doctors are still debating the issue of HIV and circumcision, one thing is clear -- all children, male, female, intact or circumcised, need to be taught the value of using condoms and protecting themselves against sexually transmitted diseases. If circumcision is found to reduce the chance of HIV, it still can't and will never be 100%, and sexual education is more important in preventing the spread of HIV and AIDS.
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#5 of 50 Old 06-30-2008, 09:47 PM
 
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Well I haven't seen it yet but that Mothering article is proabably a good place to start. This is another good journal article: http://www.circumcisionandhiv.com/fi...rcumcision.pdf

The thing is that even if there is a small amount of protection, it not relevant because it wouldn't absolve a man from his obligation to practice safe sex. Meaning that you still have to wear a condom when having sex with a partner whose HIV status is positive or unknown. HIV is an infection that is easily avoided. Circumcised or not his responsibilities don't change.
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#6 of 50 Old 07-07-2008, 05:35 PM
 
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“Many sources of data contradict the claim that circumcision protects against HIV. The United States has one of the highest rates of circumcision and HIV infection in the developed world. European nations, which rarely practice circumcision, have very low rates of HIV. Numerous regions in Africa show higher rates of HIV in circumcised populations compared to uncircumcised populations. For example, 2004 data from Lesotho show HIV infection of 15 percent for uncircumcised males and 23 percent for circumcised males. A 2007 study showed that, once commercial sex worker patterns were taken into consideration, circumcision status was irrelevant in HIV infection rates.”


http://www.futuremedicine.com/doi/pd...93?cookieSet=1
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#7 of 50 Old 07-07-2008, 05:38 PM
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“Many sources of data contradict the claim that circumcision protects against HIV. The United States has one of the highest rates of circumcision and HIV infection in the developed world. European nations, which rarely practice circumcision, have very low rates of HIV. Numerous regions in Africa show higher rates of HIV in circumcised populations compared to uncircumcised populations. For example, 2004 data from Lesotho show HIV infection of 15 percent for uncircumcised males and 23 percent for circumcised males. A 2007 study showed that, once commercial sex worker patterns were taken into consideration, circumcision status was irrelevant in HIV infection rates.”


http://www.futuremedicine.com/doi/pd...93?cookieSet=1
the link doesn't work for me
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#8 of 50 Old 07-07-2008, 06:19 PM
 
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Outside of Israel, the U.S. is the 2nd highest circumcising country in the world and after Africa, has the 2nd highest infection rate. Plus the fact that more than 80% of the world's men are "uncircumcised" and countries in Europe have an extremely low HIV+ rate.
And Israel has an extremely low rate as well, at 0.02%, plus a very high rate of circumcision and Jewish mothers. I'd pin it on the Jewish mothers.

I don't think anyone in their right mind would claim that circumcision is a great defense against HIV. Might it help a tiny bit? What does it matter? Use a frigging condom and some sense, which includes knowing your lovers and making them get tested, in a reasonable window, before sleeping with them. (You should extend the same courtesy.) That's how you defend against HIV. And yes, you certainly can ask men to do this. I used to. No paper from the clinic, no sex. And yes, I am a Jewish mother.

The issues with circumcision have to do with the likelihood of self-care, father-identification, and religious ritual. That's all. To bring HIV into it is, I think, silly.
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#9 of 50 Old 07-07-2008, 07:53 PM
 
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I don't think anyone in their right mind would claim that circumcision is a great defense against HIV. Might it help a tiny bit? What does it matter? Use a frigging condom and some sense, which includes knowing your lovers and making them get tested, in a reasonable window, before sleeping with them. (You should extend the same courtesy.) That's how you defend against HIV. And yes, you certainly can ask men to do this. I used to. No paper from the clinic, no sex. And yes, I am a Jewish mother.
: Exactly! Why not teach your sons (and daughters in the case of HPV, I know off topic) some sexual responsibility? It's like they're trying to give people a pass on being irresponsible and think that if they come up with enough vaccines and procedures that it will reduce or eliminate STDs. Common sense will tell you that if you are selective of your partners and use a condom you'll be alright. I've never had an STD and that's because I did the above. Why can't parent's teach their children just to do these simple things? :

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#10 of 50 Old 07-07-2008, 08:26 PM
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http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/74521.php


http://www.poz.com/articles/2023_12145.shtml

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#11 of 50 Old 07-08-2008, 01:02 AM
 
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Why is this "procedure" still LEGAL?!!!!!
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#12 of 50 Old 07-08-2008, 11:07 AM
 
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I just wonder (haven't researched it): do these males actually have much sex after circumcision? I know that the Mothering article pointed out that the study(ies) didn't control for HIV status of partners; but did they even track frequency of sexual contact? I assume the procedure is painful in adult males. Less sex = less opportunity for infection = skewed results on HIV status.
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#13 of 50 Old 07-08-2008, 11:58 AM
 
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I'm sorry, but I didn't even read these articles about whether or not circ lowers HIV risk because the argument doesn't make much sense. Other posters have mentioned and I agree that the way to prevent HIV infection is to EDUCATE your children about SEX, and teach them to respect themselves and others. Anyway, my DS is uncirc'd, and DH and I are both really glad that we opted out.
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#14 of 50 Old 07-08-2008, 12:27 PM
 
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You know what? HIV would not have to be a problem if people would learn to have self control, self respect, and respect for their future family and spouse by a simple thing called ABSTAINENCE. And then monogamy AFTER marriage. The cure for HIV is to SAVE SEX until marriage. This is the only way. Free sex is not free, hence all of these STD's that are destroying lives. Condoms do not prevent STD's as much as you would want to believe it. They do not cover all of the body parts that come in contact during sex. If condoms are effective against pregnancy only 3 out of 4 times, and we all know that fertilization can happen only a few days out of the month, then why would anyone think that condoms prevent an STD that can be contracted 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Not to mention that sperm are huge compared to a virus. And I don't buy it that people are going to do it anyway because they just can't help themselves. Come on people. We are higher thinking human beings who must take responsibility for their actions. We need to teach our children and young adults to keep their freaking pants on and to stay out of the bedroom and the back seat of a car. The best thing that you can wear to proctect yourself IS YOUR PANTS!
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You know what? HIV would not have to be a problem if people would learn to have self control, self respect, and respect for their future family and spouse by a simple thing called ABSTAINENCE. And then monogamy AFTER marriage. The cure for HIV is to SAVE SEX until marriage. This is the only way. Free sex is not free, hence all of these STD's that are destroying lives. Condoms do not prevent STD's as much as you would want to believe it. They do not cover all of the body parts that come in contact during sex. If condoms are effective against pregnancy only 3 out of 4 times, and we all know that fertilization can happen only a few days out of the month, then why would anyone think that condoms prevent an STD that can be contracted 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Not to mention that sperm are huge compared to a virus. And I don't buy it that people are going to do it anyway because they just can't help themselves. Come on people. We are higher thinking human beings who must take responsibility for their actions. We need to teach our children and young adults to keep their freaking pants on and to stay out of the bedroom and the back seat of a car. The best thing that you can wear to proctect yourself IS YOUR PANTS!
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#16 of 50 Old 07-08-2008, 12:50 PM
 
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Even IF BIGGGGGG IF the African studies were correct, this doesnt apply to the US. The type of HIV is different. The primary mode of infection is vaginal intercourse in Africa. The type of HIV here, however, is primarily contracted through anal contact. So unless she is absolutely sure that her son will be having anal sex and refusing to wear a condom...yeah....

Regardless, it doesnt prevent it. Again, even if it were true that it helped reduce the risk, the risk is still there. You still have to use condoms. If you think because you are circ'd you wont get infected, and therefore dont use a condom, you'll still catch it eventually. It might take 3 times instead of 2, but is that worth having an infant circumcised? And again, I highly doubt the protection exists at ALL.

Here's how I feel about it. My ds isnt circumcised. Even if he were, this wouldnt change how I feel. If my ds contracted HIV because he was being an idiot and not using condoms and sleeping with random people, would I be sad? Of course. Id be horribly upset. I dont want my son dying! However, I would not blame myself, nor his penile status. Id blame his stupid behavoir. We are not shy in this house, my kids know what sex is from early on, we have talked with them about a lot of stuff. Now, granted, we havent gone into safe sex practices to protect from STDs yet-my ds is only 8-but my dh has told them that they better be using protection because if they get pregnant or get someone else pregnant, they're taking care of the child whether they want to or not (lol my dh is a nut...). As they get older they'll be told more about STDs, using protection, etc. This is something that they WILL know about. So if he opts to ignore everything he has been taught and does stupid things, well, he is going to deal with the concequences.

Its just like smoking-they've heard more about how gross and bad for you smoking is than any other kids I know (even their smoking grandma tells them its nasty and wont smoke around them-and points out how annoying it is to have to go outside to smoke). So if they chose to smoke, I'm just going to shake my head and wont feel one bit guilty making them go outside to smoke. We cant control everything they do, the best we can do is try to teach them the right things, raise them well, and hope that they make the best decisions they can.

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#17 of 50 Old 07-08-2008, 03:35 PM
 
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You know what? HIV would not have to be a problem if people would learn to have self control, self respect, and respect for their future family and spouse by a simple thing called ABSTAINENCE. And then monogamy AFTER marriage. The cure for HIV is to SAVE SEX until marriage. This is the only way. Free sex is not free, hence all of these STD's that are destroying lives. Condoms do not prevent STD's as much as you would want to believe it. They do not cover all of the body parts that come in contact during sex. If condoms are effective against pregnancy only 3 out of 4 times, and we all know that fertilization can happen only a few days out of the month, then why would anyone think that condoms prevent an STD that can be contracted 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Not to mention that sperm are huge compared to a virus. And I don't buy it that people are going to do it anyway because they just can't help themselves. Come on people. We are higher thinking human beings who must take responsibility for their actions. We need to teach our children and young adults to keep their freaking pants on and to stay out of the bedroom and the back seat of a car. The best thing that you can wear to proctect yourself IS YOUR PANTS!
Sorry, but abstinence is a unrealistic solution. And honestly there is absolutely nothing wrong with sex, its something that can be a lot of fun, BUT people need to be educated properly and practice safe sex. Just in the same way people should learn how to drive before they drive a car. Another big reason I have a problem with abstinence education is it often comes along with incorrect sexual health facts. For example, the idea that condoms fail 1 out of 4 times they are used. Completely wrong. Condoms provide protection from STD's and pregnancy nearly 99% of the time, and the percent it fails, is almost solely based on calculating in human error.

We must teach children and young adults proper sexual health not because people cant restrain themselves, but because they want to have sex, and they are going to do it even if they are taught ways of staying responsible and educated or not.

This kind of information is especially lacking in part of Africa, and condoms need to be the first line of defense against HIV there, and here. Anything else, is just taking too much of a risk, and that goes for circumcision as well as abstinence.
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#18 of 50 Old 07-08-2008, 06:28 PM
 
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As a Mother to a new baby boy.....I was dismayed to find such incredible polarization on this issue. I have an eight year old daughter that I am constantly working on with regards to simple, basic heigene. I wanted some true dialog and simple facts in order to make an informed decision about circumcision. It is so hard to find this without the intense emotional convictions that seem to supress information on each side of the issue.

For example, I have enough knowledge of intact grown men (2 that I know) who have had adult infections resulting in adult circumcisons....but am thinking that many, many more statistically do not. STD's aside, is it possible that an intact man can give his wife more simple vaginal/bladder infections? Do most adolesent boys take the cleaning seriously? Where is the voice of the Moms who weren't convinced one way or another and have grappled with this choice? What are their thoughts now, after their choice?

This procedure is not something to take lightly and something to which I wanted intelligent input.....but found two answers: You MUST do this procedure and You MUST NOT do this procedure. All the links I found were designed to convince the reader of the author's position. Has anyone else had this experience and wished for a pro/con conversation and not a sermon?
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#19 of 50 Old 07-08-2008, 07:14 PM
 
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Where is the voice of the Moms who weren't convinced one way or another and have grappled with this choice? What are their thoughts now, after their choice?
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=112410

I know what you mean, but here's my thought. If you circumcise, you can't take that back. You can't reattach your son's foreskin and you can't predict how he'll feel without one. If you leave his body alone, he can make the decision himself when he's old enough.

Regardless of the zealousness of both sides, no national or international medical organization supports it.

Your son can always say later, "mom you should have circumcised me. I'm going to have it done because it will make me happy." It's a lot harder to deal with a son who is unhappy because a piece of him is missing.

You have intact genitals. Say you wanted to reduce the size of your inner labia because they got in your way, or you didn't like how they looked. Wouldn't you want that to be your decision to make? Or would you rather your parents had made the decision for you? How would they know you would be unhappy with your genitals?
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#20 of 50 Old 07-08-2008, 09:02 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Mana Mamma
As a Mother to a new baby boy.....I was dismayed to find such incredible polarization on this issue. I have an eight year old daughter that I am constantly working on with regards to simple, basic heigene. I wanted some true dialog and simple facts in order to make an informed decision about circumcision. It is so hard to find this without the intense emotional convictions that seem to supress information on each side of the issue.

For example, I have enough knowledge of intact grown men (2 that I know) who have had adult infections resulting in adult circumcisons....but am thinking that many, many more statistically do not. STD's aside, is it possible that an intact man can give his wife more simple vaginal/bladder infections? Do most adolesent boys take the cleaning seriously? Where is the voice of the Moms who weren't convinced one way or another and have grappled with this choice? What are their thoughts now, after their choice?

This procedure is not something to take lightly and something to which I wanted intelligent input.....but found two answers: You MUST do this procedure and You MUST NOT do this procedure. All the links I found were designed to convince the reader of the author's position. Has anyone else had this experience and wished for a pro/con conversation and not a sermon?
One simple question, and I ask this in all seriousness -- did you do your research on the pros and cons of female circumcision? Did you consider whether the health benefits of female circumcision might outweigh the risks? If not, why not? Why would you consider circumcising your son and not your daughter? The genital structures originate from the same embryonic tissues, have many analogous functions, and are more similar than they are different.

Have you researched the structure and function of the foreskin? Do you know what happens to the penis and to normal sexual functioning when you cut the foreskin off?

There's a fallacy that the circumcision issue for males has pros and cons, a balance on each side. Because the simple fact is, all human beings, regardless of gender, have the basic human right to have an intact body.

If we want to discuss pros and cons, then we should be discussing the pros and cons of female circumcision, too.

ETA: and particularly in the context of HIV, because there is research demonstrating that independent of all other factors, female circumcision is associated with a significantly reduced incidence of HIV infection.

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#21 of 50 Old 07-08-2008, 10:18 PM
 
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As a Mother to a new baby boy.....I was dismayed to find such incredible polarization on this issue. I have an eight year old daughter that I am constantly working on with regards to simple, basic heigene. I wanted some true dialog and simple facts in order to make an informed decision about circumcision. It is so hard to find this without the intense emotional convictions that seem to supress information on each side of the issue.
Welcome to the board Mana Mamma! Congratulations on your new baby boy. Well you've come to the right place we can provide you with all the information you need. I will point out that the forum is the Case Against Circumcision so I suppose you know which way we'll lean. People here do get emotional but you have to understand that is only because we care. We won't try and suppress information but rather try and put it into context. If you have direct questions please start a thread so we can address them.

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For example, I have enough knowledge of intact grown men (2 that I know) who have had adult infections resulting in adult circumcisons....but am thinking that many, many more statistically do not. STD's aside, is it possible that an intact man can give his wife more simple vaginal/bladder infections? Do most adolesent boys take the cleaning seriously? Where is the voice of the Moms who weren't convinced one way or another and have grappled with this choice? What are their thoughts now, after their choice?
That is a surprise (about the men) though it is hard to know without knowing the details of the individual cases, I can tell you that in countries were infant/child circumcision is rare or unheard of, the adult circumcision rate is at least 1/15000. It was proabably the result of US doctors who don't know or practice less invasive alternatives. As an intact guy myself I would be very wary of a doctor suggesting circumcision for any problem. Most have non invasive alternatives that should be exhausted first. I am not saying they didn't do that but given the true odds knowing even one adult getting circumcised would be rare.

I have never heard that intact men pass vaginal/bladder problems to their partners. Intact men do more readily show symptoms of yeast infections, even though circumcised and intact men get these at the same rates. Having been an adolescent boy I can assure you that we take hygiene pretty seriously, particularly when pursuing the ladies. Now having said that I want to point out that such a notion, that boys can't take care of themselves, I would fine pretty insulting. Sure we role around in the mud and frequently come back filthy (hey I still do sometimes. ) but we are capable of washing ourselves. I would point out that it has only been since WWII that circumcision, in the US (remember it is uncommon elsewhere), became common. And it wasn't too long before that that daily bathing was rare. So men spent many eons in the days before plumbing not having too many (if any) problems. Do you think nature would mess up one of the most important components?

I can't really address your last two questions but to say I don't think anyone hear regrets their decision, or they wouldn't be here. But there is a thread of those who regret circumcising.

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Originally Posted by Mana Mamma View Post
This procedure is not something to take lightly and something to which I wanted intelligent input.....but found two answers: You MUST do this procedure and You MUST NOT do this procedure. All the links I found were designed to convince the reader of the author's position. Has anyone else had this experience and wished for a pro/con conversation and not a sermon?
Let me leave you with a this thought. If you leave your boy intact, you give him an option. A boy/man can be circumcised at any point though few ever choose it for themselves. You can never really undo a circumcision so there is only one path that you would ever truly commit your son and one that gives him reasonable options. I REALLY hope you'll stick around and ask questions. We are hear to help, give us a chance. Again Welcome to the board.
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#22 of 50 Old 07-08-2008, 10:34 PM
 
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ummm. I should hope she would teach her son to use a condom whether he is circed or not. She honestly thinks circing is going to prevent him from catching HIV?
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#23 of 50 Old 07-08-2008, 11:39 PM
 
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As a Mother to a new baby boy.....I was dismayed to find such incredible polarization on this issue. I have an eight year old daughter that I am constantly working on with regards to simple, basic heigene. I wanted some true dialog and simple facts in order to make an informed decision about circumcision. It is so hard to find this without the intense emotional convictions that seem to supress information on each side of the issue.

For example, I have enough knowledge of intact grown men (2 that I know) who have had adult infections resulting in adult circumcisons....but am thinking that many, many more statistically do not. STD's aside, is it possible that an intact man can give his wife more simple vaginal/bladder infections? Do most adolesent boys take the cleaning seriously? Where is the voice of the Moms who weren't convinced one way or another and have grappled with this choice? What are their thoughts now, after their choice?

This procedure is not something to take lightly and something to which I wanted intelligent input.....but found two answers: You MUST do this procedure and You MUST NOT do this procedure. All the links I found were designed to convince the reader of the author's position. Has anyone else had this experience and wished for a pro/con conversation and not a sermon?
Most guys on this planet are not cut, including me. They all lead perfectly happy, healthy lives. I never had any problem, ever, whether medical, social, etc. So, why would cut part of a penis off without the patient's permission when everything is normal? It just sounds strange, doesn't it?
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#24 of 50 Old 07-09-2008, 04:27 AM
 
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Originally Posted by tennisdude23 View Post
Most guys on this planet are not cut, including me. They all lead perfectly happy, healthy lives. I never had any problem, ever, whether medical, social, etc. So, why would cut part of a penis off without the patient's permission when everything is normal? It just sounds strange, doesn't it?
Ditto. I'm intact and have absolutely no even minor problems.

To circ a boy because you think they have more trouble cleaning is a sincere insult to their intelligence and exercises gender inequality.

And Quirky's response to researching the "pros/cons" to female circumcision just echos the gender inequality boys are unfairly up against in rare circumcising countries face.
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#25 of 50 Old 07-09-2008, 01:03 PM
 
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I think the reason you aren't going to find people who are neutral or on the fence is that the nature of the issue basically dictates it. It's the removal of a healthy body part without the patient's consent (I'm trying to say this as neutrally as I can), and not even one, like an appendix or tonsils, that the patient is not aware of having or not, but a very sensitive external part of the body.

Since that is the case, either it is medically justified, in which case the foreskin is truly dangerous and parents who leave it in place are neglectful, or it is not medically justified, in which case the right to bodily integrity becomes an issue and parents who do it are violating that right.

A lot of pro-circumcision people I've run into lately actually don't claim that it "must be done". They used to say this, but lately the line seems to be "it's a personal choice". However, this completely undermines their position. If they admit it isn't needed, how can they justify it?
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#26 of 50 Old 07-09-2008, 01:03 PM
 
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My BILs are intact as well and have never had a problem. My circ'd dh is the unhappy one.

You never know what your son will want when he gets older. Most intact men are quite happy with their status and would never dream of getting circ'd. Of the few I have met online who did opt to have it done as an adult they either A.) deeply regretted it after the fact or B.) were happy with their decision but also their parents decision to let them decide.

Obviously without knowing the two men that were circumcised for infections and knowing their history, I cant say for sure, but 99% of *necessary* circumcisions in the US are NOT necessary. Did they have cancer of the foreskin? Gangrene? Then it wasnt needed. The problem is, doctors in the US have this attitude that if something is wrong with a penis and it still has the foreskin attached, well, obviously its the foreskin's fault. I know two men who were circ'd as older kids, one at 8 and one at 16. The first one was circ'd due to a yeast infection. No joke. Do we circ our daughters for a yeast infection?? Heck no. We give them antibiotics. Ironically after the circ his yeast infection got worse, not better. The other man was circ'd because he couldnt retract yet. Thats all. There was no pain, he wasnt having infections-simple stretching could have fixed the issue. But instead, he was circ'd.

Again, how do we treat a girl or a woman with an infection in the genital area? We give her medications to get rid of it. I have never met a girl who had her labia removed due to recurrent infections. Sadly, those men you met wouldnt have been circumcised had they been treated the way they should have.

I will be honest, I couldnt have cared less about the circumcision debate when my ds was born or even for months after. He was left intact because my insurance didnt cover it, simple as that. What made me actually look into it was my dh's unhappiness over being circ'd. Yes, most men never care whether they were circ'd or not, but as the info gets out there, more men are realising what was taken from them and arnt happy with it. Especially with circ rates being the way they are now (around 50% nationally, 30% in my own area), these boys will very much be exposed to both intact and circumcised penises as they grow up. Personally I'd be a lot more upset to see what I had lost than what I still had. And again, even my brother in laws, who are in their 20's and were born during a time when most boys were still circ'd, are very happy with their status and were never made fun of (to clarify, they are intact). The most they got was curiosity over it. As they said, most guys wouldnt admit to looking at another guys junk anyway!

I am leaving the decision to my son. Leaving him intact was the default; circumcising is not. I wouldnt risk my sons health or life for a cosmetic procedure.

Cari-mama to Eriq, Lile, Paikea, Kaidyn, and Mieke is here!! 2/9/10
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#27 of 50 Old 07-09-2008, 02:37 PM
 
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I have researched the pros and cons of male circumsicion and there ARE pros and cons. My difficulty is finding if the "pros" are true or if the information is biased. This is also my difficulty with the "cons". Most of the information I receive is highly emotionally charged. All the circumcised (as babies) men I have discussed this with are fine with having had it done...especially with the cleaning issue. It's quite possible they don't know what their missing?....but then again, there is no report of not having enough pleasure. The men I know who have had it done as adults are supportive of having it done as babies. Two men is not enough input for me for such a intense procedure....

With regard to female circumsicion, I cannot find any pros for female circumcision and it appears the practice has evolved simply to control women. I've never heard of an adult woman who, for medical reasons, had to get the procedure done.....has anyone?

Thank you to the person who mentioned that you cannot get the foreskin back. That's a good point and is the simple kind of dialog I am looking for.
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#28 of 50 Old 07-09-2008, 02:49 PM
 
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I also want to add that I am not saying my boy won't have good hygeine because he's a boy. It is actually my experience with my 8 year old daughter, who is horrible at it unless we step in that is making me wonder about the hygeine issue. I do not want to have to inspect my son's private area the way I have to inspect my daughter's teeth. The smell of her pants is horrible but her "forgetting" to put on underwear insures adequate airflow to the area. This (airflow) is where I see a pro for being circumsised.

However, I don't want to judge my infant based on his sister. I have another daughter with impeccable hygeine.
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#29 of 50 Old 07-09-2008, 03:24 PM
 
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Mana mama, if you haven't found any 'pros' for female circ then you haven't looked very hard. Girls are circed for cleanliness, lower infection rates, so it will look purity ect. Basically the same reason boys are cut here.
Adult women do opt to alter their genitals all the time. Vaginal rejuvenation, is that what one of the cosmetic procedures is called?

And if you remove the cultural blinders you'll realize quickly there are no real pros to either. Cutting off healthy functioning body parts of children is just a bad idea.

How much air flow are you getting in your vagina , me not so much. I think your argument in favor of circ is one of the most illogical I'ver heard, air flow seriously. I have two intact boys and no inspection has ever been needed.

OUR DAUGHTERS ARE PROTECTED SHOULDN'T OUR SONS BE TOO! :
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#30 of 50 Old 07-09-2008, 04:03 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mana Mamma View Post
I have researched the pros and cons of male circumsicion and there ARE pros and cons. My difficulty is finding if the "pros" are true or if the information is biased. This is also my difficulty with the "cons". Most of the information I receive is highly emotionally charged. All the circumcised (as babies) men I have discussed this with are fine with having had it done...especially with the cleaning issue. It's quite possible they don't know what their missing?....but then again, there is no report of not having enough pleasure. The men I know who have had it done as adults are supportive of having it done as babies. Two men is not enough input for me for such a intense procedure....

With regard to female circumsicion, I cannot find any pros for female circumcision and it appears the practice has evolved simply to control women. I've never heard of an adult woman who, for medical reasons, had to get the procedure done.....has anyone?

Thank you to the person who mentioned that you cannot get the foreskin back. That's a good point and is the simple kind of dialog I am looking for.
Well I am a circumcised male and I wish I was not. I have no idea how sex would feel different if I had a foreskin. But I do know that circumcision removed a lot of nerve endings, where sensation comes from, so that leads me to believe that I have less sensation. Also, many of the studies that say sensation has not changed, usually only compare the penis glans, and for tests on uncut men during those studies, the foreskin is held back and ignored. And if you ignore the extra nerves, obviously the study is going to say there is no difference.

Look, I would be more supportive of circumcision if it was being used to treat an actual problem, and it was the least invasive solution.
If there is a medical problem, of course, but circumcision does not treat anything. A circed boy can still get an STD, a UTI, a infection, a yeast infection. There penis can still get dirty, as children they can still be made fun of for something, and they will still have to wear a condom.

So you have to ask yourself, whats really the point? Reducing the risk of something that probably wont happen in the first place? Because thats all there is to it, circumcision does not provide treatment to actual problems.

This might be slightly of a biased belief, but I believe "My body, my rights"
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