If you have convinced someone... - Mothering Forums

Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
#1 of 20 Old 08-07-2008, 10:01 PM - Thread Starter
 
mama24-7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: with the dust bunnies
Posts: 2,428
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
no to circ, especially a typical circ supporter, such as the father-to-be who wants his son to "look like him," or the someone who is worried about how the child will compare to his classmates many years down the line...

What convinced them?

I don't know of anyone personally who has been convinced not to. Dh has said that if we were Jewish, it'd be done. Not a problem since we're not, but even if we were the answer would still be NO!!! (Not trying to debate this here, just mentioning what dh has said & my answer.)

Please share what has worked for you in convincing others.

TIA!
Sus

Baby the babies while they're babies so they don't need babying for a lifetime.
mama24-7 is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
#2 of 20 Old 08-07-2008, 10:15 PM
 
2Late2BCreative's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Rocky Mountains & Mile High
Posts: 299
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
:
2Late2BCreative is offline  
#3 of 20 Old 08-07-2008, 10:25 PM
 
carriebft's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 6,219
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
YOu just never know what will bring people over... try some of these tactics:

1) The realities of circumcision/ it's NOT just a little snip:
-circumcision video
-verbal account of what happens during a circumcision (tidbits concerning things like safety pinning the foreskin sometimes with gomco clamp or how you let the foreskin rot off with the plastibell seem to be really get people's attention)
-written account of the procedure with pictures

All the of the above can be found online and much of it is in the wed resources thread.

2) the function of the foreskin
-Doctors Opposing Circumcision education video on the prepuce
-lists of what is "lost" in circumcision
-"sex as nature intended it" website

3) Human Rights
-comparisons to female circumcision (removal of clitoral hood, pricking the clitoral hood)
-choice effects no one but the child
-studies showing boys remember pain of circumcision
- pain in general-- inhumane cosmetic surgery

4) ease of care
-no gauze, blood, wound care, pus, or fiddling with the penis required
-washing = leave it alone! swish a bit in the bath-- no retraction! no Q tips! no scrubbing!

5) Risks of circumcision:
-meatal stenosis-- 10% of circumcised boys suffer this
-adhesions- 71%
-buried penis
-trapped or webbed penis
-glan amputation (partial/whole)
-infection
-bleeding
-death
-etcetc many more to add to this list

"Parents are simply trustees; they do not own the bodies of their children"-Norm Cohen  Martial arts instructor intactlact.gifhomebirth.jpgnak.gif and mom to 4: DD1 (1/05) DS (7/06) DD2 (5/08) DD3 (2/11)
carriebft is offline  
#4 of 20 Old 08-07-2008, 10:32 PM
 
Quirky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Princeton, NJ
Posts: 11,770
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
For the "look like daddy," I usually try to use humor: I say, "well, we're not going to be having Naked Daddy-Son Picture Day at Sears, so who cares if they look the same? After all, ds has brown eyes and dh has blue eyes, so it's not like they look that much alike anyway." Then I ask the guy (or ask his wife to ask him) whether he knows what his dad's penis looks like.

I think a humorous lead-in that makes people look at their long-held assumptions can open the door to other information, like the functions of the foreskin, the pain and trauma of circumcision, and the fact that it's simply not necessary.

I also really like to spin it in a way that puts the blame on the medical establishment for promoting and continuing circing without true informed consent....by spinning it as "here's what your doctor may not tell you and oh by the way did you know doctors make millions of dollars off circ every year??" you can give the parents an excuse for not knowing the truth, because the doctors haven't told them. It's "forced teaming" -- us against the doctors.

(And for as many wonderful doctors as there are out there, I totally blame the medical profession for the continuation of this abomination. If the doctors would refuse to do it, circ would be a thing of the past.)

Come visit the NEW QuirkyBaby website -- earn QB Bucks rewards points for purchases, reviews, referrals, and more! Free US shipping on great brands of baby slings and carriers and FREE BabyLegs or babywearing mirror on orders of $100+. Take the QB Quiz for personalized advice!

Quirky is offline  
#5 of 20 Old 08-07-2008, 10:35 PM
 
jyurina's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Arizona
Posts: 365
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
My friend didn't circ her son and was sure to show me when they came to visit. I think it was just the fact that I made her think about something she wouldn't have. And she also listened to my brokenhearted ranting when my sister circed her boys despite ALL the info. It made me feel good that I stopped at least one little baby from being hurt. Another friend noticed my anti-circ signature on e-mail and I sent her links to the video and here. Another little guy left normal
jyurina is offline  
#6 of 20 Old 08-07-2008, 10:46 PM
 
thixle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 2,945
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Beware, I don't make much sense, i've been birthday-party planning all day, I'm tired.

Honestly? Well, it depends on the person. Usually anyone into body-mods or tattoos take the body-mod & choice opinion very well. "So the kid can wait til he's past puberty and have the exact amount of skin removed, if he wants." No one thinks about that. Dh had a lot removed, and it caused problems But neither one of us are really shy about talking about it with close friends or acquantences. You know, not just a second-hand story, if they need it. Most of the guys are pretty crass and so are we, so it is an easy "click."

I simply try to be honest and open and remember how bewhildered by it all I was when I first found out. Who finds adhesions and scars attractive? The skin removed is the size of an index card. Could you imagine how much bigger you would be if you still had all that? Or waited until you had a full-sized penis and choose? Well, you get what I'm saying. It's just easier to do it as an adult and the kid/guy can pull the foreskin back in the locker room if he really wants to, but sheesh... who's gonna be checking out his package?
What if the doc takes too much skin? What if he doesn't take enough? What if the kid hates it either way?

Yep, I'm pretty blunt about it with most people.

---feeling like an emu on acid---
thixle is offline  
#7 of 20 Old 08-07-2008, 10:48 PM
 
Fellow Traveler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Formerly JWhispers
Posts: 1,842
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by carriebft View Post
YOu just never know what will bring people over...
This is very true, it's hard to know what people will be receptive to, what their concerns are. If possible I think the best approach is to use a broad approach and then if they have concerns find out what they are and work to dispel those myths. This could be a iterative process but it prevents overload and focuses on their concerns.
Fellow Traveler is offline  
#8 of 20 Old 08-07-2008, 10:56 PM
 
carriebft's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 6,219
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Some good myth/fact lists:

http://www.nocircpa.org/4642.html

http://www.coloradonocirc.org/myths.php

"Parents are simply trustees; they do not own the bodies of their children"-Norm Cohen  Martial arts instructor intactlact.gifhomebirth.jpgnak.gif and mom to 4: DD1 (1/05) DS (7/06) DD2 (5/08) DD3 (2/11)
carriebft is offline  
#9 of 20 Old 08-08-2008, 01:14 AM
 
2Late2BCreative's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Rocky Mountains & Mile High
Posts: 299
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I'm in the process of sending info to a very good friend. My problem is that most of the anti-circ sites are just that...anti-circ. I want to send some thing that will NOT seem like a shove-it-down-your-throat approach. I think it's so important to know what might get their attention...something that will make them stop a minute to just think that "just bc it's always been done" might not be true, right, proper, healthy, etc, etc.

Another very good point is the $$$$ approach. Of course doctors make TONS of money from circ'ing and that is a huge reason the public does not get the proper information to make an informed decision. I mean no one makes money by leaving a penis intact!

For me, I find some of the more shocking reasons not to circ will not actually convince someone who is pro-circ to not do it in the end. It's a delicate battlefield.

2Late
2Late2BCreative is offline  
#10 of 20 Old 08-08-2008, 01:26 AM
 
robertandenith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: South Florida
Posts: 1,980
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
The Penn & Teller video did the trick on my own husband! I now have an intact boy (born Aug 5)

Latina Mama of 3 and Wife of a great man since 1997
: : : : : : :
robertandenith is offline  
#11 of 20 Old 08-08-2008, 08:28 AM
 
carriebft's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 6,219
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
I'm in the process of sending info to a very good friend. My problem is that most of the anti-circ sites are just that...anti-circ. I want to send some thing that will NOT seem like a shove-it-down-your-throat approach.
My approach would be to send study abstracts (if they are into that kind of thing-- such as this one: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...?dopt=Abstract )

Or pages like these from medical communities:

http://www.cirp.org/library/statements/

"Parents are simply trustees; they do not own the bodies of their children"-Norm Cohen  Martial arts instructor intactlact.gifhomebirth.jpgnak.gif and mom to 4: DD1 (1/05) DS (7/06) DD2 (5/08) DD3 (2/11)
carriebft is offline  
#12 of 20 Old 08-08-2008, 10:11 AM
 
Lit Chick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,049
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I'm wondering right now, too.

I was indifferent until I knew we were having a boy. I really thought I was having a girl, so Circ was a moot point. And then DH just assumed we'd circ, but I started thinking that it made no sense to HB and have such a gentle, low-intervention preg/birth and then intentionally hurt my baby. So, I threw a fit (which made him stubborn) and then got a bunch of info and made him read it and talk about it.
Heh, and at first he was one of the "but he should look like me" dads, until I pointed out that if he really wanted that, we'd have to amputate a testicle as well.... and that was the end of that

But now my aunt is pregnant again... her 1st was a girl (yay)... and she is the most conventional person EVER. Scheduled a C, FF'ed, pierced the little girl's ears really early... she'd probably circ just for the cosmetics of it. Sigh. I'm hoping it's another girl, but I'd like to educate her just in case it's a boy...
sigh. And I know she'd never, never, never listen.

Mom to two intact boys, born at home. DS1 11/07, DS2 9/10
Lit Chick is offline  
#13 of 20 Old 08-08-2008, 11:49 AM
Banned
 
Yulia_R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Lafayette, CO
Posts: 2,832
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
the history of circ in North America, so people see how sick it is from the very get-go.

Circumcision started in North America in the Puritan 1870s as a cure for masturbation (yes, you read it right! masturbation was considered to be evil and sinful and was blamed for all sort of illnesses including blindness, paralysis and mental retardation) http://www.noharmm.org/docswords.htm , http://www.cirp.org/library/history/ , http://www.sexuallymutilatedchild.org/shorthis.htm

As late as the 1970's medical books were claiming that desensitizing the boy was good medicine as well as good morality. The idea of that, touted openly by medical scholarship with notable pride, was carefully tucked away when the sexual revolution permitted sexual pleasure.
Yulia_R is offline  
#14 of 20 Old 08-08-2008, 01:54 PM
 
DocsNemesis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: I make milk..whats your superpower?
Posts: 2,969
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
My dh has convinced a lot of people. For him, its just having people see how angry/unhappy about being circ'd he himself is and then going on to tell them the facts. I havent done as much convincing, at least not IRL (online I've convinced quite a few people though ), but I really havent had the opportunity when I'm alone since um...I'm almost always with dh. We're buddies, lol. I did try to convince my *friend* but she is dead set on it and eventually admitted that she just thinks intact penises are ugly. (she cant answer why she cares what her SONS penises look like)

Also simply saying oh, my ds isnt circ'd and he's never had an issue, and niether have his intact, adult uncles can be enough to draw intrest and make someone go oh, so it isnt the end of the world?

We've also had a few people come up to us and say that they like our bumper sticker (Foreskins are not a birth defect) and say they've never thought about it that way. Its such a simple statement but apparently some people really hadnt thought of it like that.

Cari-mama to Eriq, Lile, Paikea, Kaidyn, and Mieke is here!! 2/9/10
DocsNemesis is offline  
#15 of 20 Old 08-08-2008, 04:40 PM
 
ramlita's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: eating pesto in Vermont
Posts: 2,936
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
That's what's maddening: it's very hard to guess which key will fit the locked mind of the person next to you.

Often it's the most basic of information that gets the ball rolling well: basic anatomy and what is done (ie, it's fused, not loose; ripped/crushed away, not snipped off)
An open, calm approach: people used to think it was for the best, but now we know that's not the case.

The press given to the whole HIV thing is so annoying.
How could anyone argue that they should circ, and act as if condoms aren't still appropriate? If they concede that their boys should (someday) wear condoms, why do surgery on something that will be covered anyway?

DIYer mama to DD 11/00 and DS 6/05- both intact, naturally!
...missing Mothering Magazine...
 
ramlita is offline  
#16 of 20 Old 08-15-2008, 10:45 AM
 
Lit Chick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,049
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Popping in again.

I have a good friend that is having a boy. I know she'll circ, because she circ'd her 1st. Sad, but I'm not even going to go there w/her. She's the anti-crunchy, and non AP. (And yes, somehow we are friends!).

But my aunt.... this kiddo will be my cousin. If it's a boy... I still think that I will have probably 0 success of convincing her if she is very pro-circ... but maybe this is just something she never really thought about and maybe some info can change her mind. I don't have a lot of hope, because, well, I know my aunt. BUT, I feel like I should make a little attempt anyway.

I'm just wondering the best way to go about it.

Bleh.

Well, I know my aunt is likely not going to listen to anything I say, given her track record. I should probably start working on my brothers. If they ever have kids.... I should start wearing them down now.

Mom to two intact boys, born at home. DS1 11/07, DS2 9/10
Lit Chick is offline  
#17 of 20 Old 08-15-2008, 11:42 AM
 
carriebft's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 6,219
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Good article here from a mainstream men's magazine that dispels most myths plus shows exactly what happens in a circumcision (dispelling the "just a snip" idea)

http://www.infocirc.org/MensHlth.htm

more printer friendly versions here at bottom:

http://www.coloradonocirc.org/pamphlets.php

"Parents are simply trustees; they do not own the bodies of their children"-Norm Cohen  Martial arts instructor intactlact.gifhomebirth.jpgnak.gif and mom to 4: DD1 (1/05) DS (7/06) DD2 (5/08) DD3 (2/11)
carriebft is offline  
#18 of 20 Old 08-15-2008, 12:14 PM
 
Katie Bugs Mama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 2,160
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I have a friend who was leaning away from circing her son, but was a little bit wishy-washy.

She's pretty germophobic, so what really convinced her was finding out that an intact penis requires no special care to stay clean. She also didn't like it at all when I pointed out that, if she circed the poor little thing, she would then have to deal with an open, seeping wound being in direct contact with feces. I thought that she was going to faint when I put it that way.

She was also really struck by the analogy between a removing a fingernail and removing the foreskin. I think that a lot of people -- probably most people -- think that the foreskin is just a loose piece of tissue, sort of like a hangnail. Learning that her son's foreskin would be every bit as completely attached to his penis as his fingernails are to his hands really solidified her decision not to mutilate him.
Katie Bugs Mama is offline  
#19 of 20 Old 08-15-2008, 01:11 PM
 
DocsNemesis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: I make milk..whats your superpower?
Posts: 2,969
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Oh yeah, as for the looking like dad thing-that ones easy for us since dh's brothers are intact and his dad is circ'd-and he is circ'd and his sons are intact. No one cares!

Cari-mama to Eriq, Lile, Paikea, Kaidyn, and Mieke is here!! 2/9/10
DocsNemesis is offline  
#20 of 20 Old 08-15-2008, 07:07 PM
 
DJay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 75
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
My friend did not know that he himself was circumcised until I raise the question about his upcoming baby. I urged him to research and provided information and links.

He and his wife came to the conclusion that it was not necessary and thus they did not circumcise their son, nor son #2. Their doctor was willing to do a circ, but respected their wishes and left the boys alone.

I never had any sons, so this was the next best.

DJ
DJay is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Drag and Drop File Upload
Drag files here to attach!
Upload Progress: 0
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Mothering Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off