phimosis after circumcision - help! - Page 3 - Mothering Forums

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Old 08-12-2008, 02:08 PM
 
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I would also be wary of assuming that your son has "true" phimosis. He has lots and lots of time to heal. He probably doesn't follow up with patients who do heal on their own and can retract by puberty. Or, he may have been trying to cover himself by putting out the worst-case scenario.

I'm sorry you're going through so much stress right now. I hope you can find the resources you need to get that second opinion.

Mom to DD ('06) and DS ('08)
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Old 08-12-2008, 03:19 PM
 
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The doctor was very gentle with DS. He did give some good news that he thought it is unlikely DS will get to the point that he can't pee or that that was any other immediate danger, which was a huge relief to me. Otherwise his opinion was pretty depressing. He said there is no need to do anything in any certain time frame, but he doesn't think that his foreskin will ever be able to retract without surgery. He said this is "true phimosis" as opposed to the kind of phimosis in intact boys. What makes it different is that DS has so much scar tissue. The pinhole that he can pee through is a tight ring of scar tissue and scar tissue does not stretch like regular foreskin. It's worse than an adhesion where a small part is attached because the scar tissue is so tight and all the way around. I'm not going to take this as the final word, but it does make me very sad.

I would definitely like a second opinion. We'll be in the San Diego area until December and then in Seattle. Can anyone recommend a doctor in either place? I haven't heard back from the doctors recommended by nocirc, but neither are in this area and I can't blame them for not wanting to volunteer their time for a phone consultation when the damage is already done. I might try to call again this week.

I'm sorry if my questions have sounded demanding. I didn't intend that. I assumed you would only take the time to answer if you wanted to help & I think my desperation probably came across as more demanding. I do appreciate all the time you've invested in helping me.
Thank you for the update.

I can see what you're talking about and it makes sense. A scar isn't going to be as pliable as skin because a scar isn't a stretching connective tissue.

I'm going to do some research for you and see what I can find. It might be a day or two before I can post anything - if I can find anything relevant.

In the mean time I'd recommend applying Evening Primrose Oil on his scar.
EPO helped break down the scar tissue I had after a labial tear when ds#2 was born.
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Old 08-12-2008, 04:24 PM
 
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The doctor was very gentle with DS. He did give some good news that he thought it is unlikely DS will get to the point that he can't pee or that that was any other immediate danger, which was a huge relief to me. Otherwise his opinion was pretty depressing. He said there is no need to do anything in any certain time frame, but he doesn't think that his foreskin will ever be able to retract without surgery. He said this is "true phimosis" as opposed to the kind of phimosis in intact boys. What makes it different is that DS has so much scar tissue. The pinhole that he can pee through is a tight ring of scar tissue and scar tissue does not stretch like regular foreskin. It's worse than an adhesion where a small part is attached because the scar tissue is so tight and all the way around. I'm not going to take this as the final word, but it does make me very sad.

I would definitely like a second opinion.
Very, very glad to hear the doc is not pushing for immediate surgery!
I believe he only called it "true phimosis" because he had been circ'ed and the "origional seal" had already been broken. Yulia is right, it can't be diagnosed until after puberty.

You know how scars fade over time? Well, in 13-16 years, that scar tissue is going to be MUCH smaller in proportion to the size of the penis, and is going to break down and fade quite a bit. And yep, steroid creams at that time could very well help release the adhesions, as could gentle stretching. It is very true that scar tissue doesn't have the same elasticity as unbroken skin, but it's not a complete loss. Look into foreskin restoration (Doug's Manual Restoration Site is all drawings and info, very unintimidating, good starting point), and you will see different methods of breaking down the scar tissue, different oils to use, etc.

Hey... just had a thought: evening primrose oil is used internally for mom's that have had episiotomies to soften and break down scar tissue. I see no reason what so ever that you wouldn't be able to put a dab of EPO daily on your son until he is out of diapers! That would definately help the scar situation and not cross any boundaries-- I'm not at all suggesting you start restoring your infant's foreskin, just that you have the info to be able to present to him when he is older... and applying a natural oil after a bath to reduce scar tissue sounds like a good idea to me.

ETA: You know, I should really just read the responses before posting :P

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Old 08-12-2008, 05:46 PM
 
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Hey... just had a thought: evening primrose oil is used internally for mom's that have had episiotomies to soften and break down scar tissue. I see no reason what so ever that you wouldn't be able to put a dab of EPO daily on your son until he is out of diapers! That would definately help the scar situation and not cross any boundaries-- I'm not at all suggesting you start restoring your infant's foreskin, just that you have the info to be able to present to him when he is older... and applying a natural oil after a bath to reduce scar tissue sounds like a good idea to me.
Wow! you said that way better than I did.
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Old 08-12-2008, 07:26 PM
 
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I would definitely like a second opinion. We'll be in the San Diego area until December and then in Seattle. Can anyone recommend a doctor in either place? I haven't heard back from the doctors recommended by nocirc, but neither are in this area and I can't blame them for not wanting to volunteer their time for a phone consultation when the damage is already done. I might try to call again this week.
I think Dr Paul Fleiss is in LA which is only about 1.5 hours from San Diego, I'd try to get an appt with him. I'd call the DOC drs again and also check to see if there are any more DOC drs in the SD/LA area to consult with. Seattle should have some intact friendly drs there.

I wouldn't worry too much about what the dr said, though I know that's easier said then done. You have a long, long way to go and his penis has a lot of growing to do. The descriptions I've read of adhesions sound exactly like what you're describing, complete adherance all the way around, and most of the drs advise moms of those boys to just let it be, it will resolve around 3 or more- and these are often moms that are still pro circumcision : and are on pro circumcision boards (I troll occasionally to see what's up with the 'other' side ). Your DS is still sooo little and as long as he can pee I would just let it go and see what happens, try not to worry too much. Luckily, the body has an amazing capability to heal itself, just nurse him as long as possible and feed him a healthy diet, see what happens in a few years.
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Old 08-12-2008, 09:09 PM
 
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Hugs momma.

Please leave it alone. I know you are nervous about everything right now, all first time mommies are. That was me 5 months ago. Most the members here have been researching for YEARS about circ. Doctors are not even taught about foreskin in med school. They are only taught about how to cut them off. If you look at the NOCIRC website it explains how most parents of intact children have more knowledge about foreskin than doctors. This is so true!!! Franklyspeaking is extremely knowledgeable about foreskin, forced retraction, and circ. Maybe you can PM him for reassurance. If you babe can urinate then everything is working as it should. No need to worry about future issues. Those can be resolved if necessary when the time comes. As far as the steroid cream. I would stop doing that if he is urinating find. When you stop the cream the foreskin will just go back to a small hole b/c your son doesn't yet have the hormones himself. If by puberty it is a problem, then the steroid cream can be used. Let your little guy heal. His body is doing what it should and he is lucky for that b/c foreskin is extremely important to the male sex organ. Sadly your husband doesn't understand this b/c he doesn't have it. Maybe you can point your hubby to some reading about the functions. There is a sticky with links for you to browse.

My sons opening is tiny, he even sprays a funny direction when he pees. It is perfectly normal in infancy and childhood. Your little guy will be okay so long as you LEAVE IT ALONE.

I know this is a time when you feel very insecure. Please trust your instincts. My only regrets for my son have been the times I didn't follow my instincts.

(((HUGS)))
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Old 08-12-2008, 09:25 PM
 
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many, many complications of circumcision in picture form to various degrees deformities:
http://www.circumstitions.com/Complic.html#major
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Old 08-12-2008, 11:47 PM
 
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I would stop doing that if he is urinating find. When you stop the cream the foreskin will just go back to a small hole b/c your son doesn't yet have the hormones himself. If by puberty it is a problem, then the steroid cream can be used.
: this steroid cream serves to purpose right now and will give the impression it is helping only for things to go back the way they were after you stop using it.

 
SAHMlady.gifread.giflovin' trekkie.giffan intactivist.gifwinner.jpg to loveeyes.gifenergy.gifDD 10/00 & superhero.gifmoon.gifDS 10/04 ribbonpb.gifIf your ds is intact, keep him safe, visit the Case Against Circ forumnocirc.gifCirc, a personal choice, Your sonsyes.gifbrokenheart.gif11/98brokenheart.gif6/99ribbonbrown.gifanti-tobaccoribbonyellow.gifThyroid cancer survivor. With cat.gif& goldfish.gif & (Boxer)dog2.gif wishing 4 whale.gif&ribbonwhite.gifsigncirc1.gifselectivevax.gifdelayedvax.gif

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Old 08-13-2008, 02:53 PM
 
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I'm in the Seattle area Whimseymom I have an awsome, foreskin friendly ped on the eastside (in Kirkland) who I trust whole heartedly. Maybe you could give her a visit and see what she says. If she thinks there is a problem, she probably knows of a good urologist. Her name is Donna Zimburean at Totem Lake Pediatrics. You could ask DOC again-they are located in Seattle and I know they had a couple on their list in the area. Or if all else fails-go to Childrens and find a urologist there. I have never had a problem with anyone there-they are very knowledgable and are also VERY good about keeping kids comfy and not causing pain unless they seriously have to. In fact, I'll ask my ped next time I go in if she has any recommendations around here.

Hugs-and I'm glad they arnt pushing you to do anything right now

Cari-mama to Eriq, Lile, Paikea, Kaidyn, and Mieke is here!! 2/9/10
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Old 08-13-2008, 04:32 PM
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and I can't blame them for not wanting to volunteer their time for a phone consultation when the damage is already done. I might try to call again this week.
What makes you think that? Marilyn Milos, the founder of NOCIRC, has 3 circumcised sons. I'm going to guarentee she understands your position on this one.

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Old 08-13-2008, 06:28 PM
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What makes you think that? Marilyn Milos, the founder of NOCIRC, has 3 circumcised sons. I'm going to guarentee she understands your position on this one.
She is a RN, by the way and is awesome. OP, you can easily contact her over the phone.
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Old 08-13-2008, 09:24 PM
 
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Whimsymom, good luck to you. It is obvious you care a lot about your son. I am so sorry for the false accusations and rudeness that you've experienced in this thread.

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Old 08-13-2008, 10:13 PM - Thread Starter
 
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most parents of intact children have more knowledge about foreskin than doctors.
I'm starting to see how true this is. Thank you for all the advice and information. I'm not very good with quoting more than one PP, but you've all offered very helpful info. It does make sense that the scar tissue that looks like it covers such a large area now will be very tiny compared to a full grown penis. The restoration site definitely gives me a much better idea of what can be done. Someone who was circumcised at 15 must have a lot more scar tissue than my baby. So I'm feeling better. Still scared and sad, but a little more hopeful. We've stopped the steroid & I'm going to get evening primrose oil. I would still like to find a doctor I trust to give us the best options. I think DH would feel more comfortable with that. He's not pushing to do surgery right away, but he's pretty willing to accept what the doctor said. I'm sure it might just take a while to hear back from DOC doctors or nocirc. When I talked to Marilyn on the phone, she asked me to let her know how it goes, so I'm sure if I don't reach the ones she gave me, she would have more ideas. When we get to Washington, I can at least try the one DocsNemesis recommended. I still welcome any other additional info. Thanks!
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Old 08-13-2008, 10:34 PM
 
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Someone who was circumcised at 15 must have a lot more scar tissue than my baby.
From what I have seen it is more so the opposite. I have seen more adult circs that had minimal/almost nonexistent scars. I actually cant recall seeing an infant circ with the same minimal results...and I am a member of a restoring website where plenty of images are available, perhaps they exist, but I dont remember seeing any. It must be easier to minimize the appear of scars in a fully/mostly developed penis.
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Old 08-13-2008, 11:34 PM
 
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From what I have seen it is more so the opposite. I have seen more adult circs that had minimal/almost nonexistent scars. I actually cant recall seeing an infant circ with the same minimal results...and I am a member of a restoring website where plenty of images are available, perhaps they exist, but I dont remember seeing any. It must be easier to minimize the appear of scars in a fully/mostly developed penis.
The doctors have more skin to work with/stitch and the foreskin has already retracted, so no scar tissue from the forced seperation or constant forced retractions.
I was talking about the actual scar tissue, not just the appearance of scarring... sure, the actual incision/crush line is going to be thinner in adults (more skin, ease of stitching)... but the actual amount of scarring is usually due more to retractions, forced seperations, etc. As long as those aren't constant, studies show adhesions will release on thier own. If they are continually torn and retracted, it is more likely to develop scar tissue. Sooooo.... and infacnt who was circ'ed, and then left alone to heal should have about as much scar tissue as an adult circ. Make sense?

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Old 08-14-2008, 12:39 AM
 
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The doctor was very gentle with DS. He did give some good news that he thought it is unlikely DS will get to the point that he can't pee or that that was any other immediate danger, which was a huge relief to me. Otherwise his opinion was pretty depressing. He said there is no need to do anything in any certain time frame, but he doesn't think that his foreskin will ever be able to retract without surgery. He said this is "true phimosis" as opposed to the kind of phimosis in intact boys. What makes it different is that DS has so much scar tissue. The pinhole that he can pee through is a tight ring of scar tissue and scar tissue does not stretch like regular foreskin. It's worse than an adhesion where a small part is attached because the scar tissue is so tight and all the way around. I'm not going to take this as the final word, but it does make me very sad.
Well, at least you got some good news. I can see the issue with the scare tissue clearly the scar will be around the tip of what remains so I can see what you mean. But as long as your son is urinating properly and easily there shouldn't be a major concern. As an aside, if you leave him as is, there are a number of options he may have when he gets older if he can't retract his foreskin. The first being the cream you are using now. Failing that there are a few less invasive surgical options which he could choose too. That is if it becomes problematic for him and he wanted to do something about it. But I am guessing it won't.

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I would definitely like a second opinion. We'll be in the San Diego area until December and then in Seattle. Can anyone recommend a doctor in either place? I haven't heard back from the doctors recommended by nocirc, but neither are in this area and I can't blame them for not wanting to volunteer their time for a phone consultation when the damage is already done. I might try to call again this week.
This isn't true. Those at NOCIRC should be more than happy to speak with you. It certainly isn't your fault more than anything they'll want to be sure your son gets the most reasonable and less invasive treatment he needs. It could be as simple as they are very busy. I read you called Marilyn and I know she is as willing to help a parent in your situation as any other.

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I'm sorry if my questions have sounded demanding. I didn't intend that. I assumed you would only take the time to answer if you wanted to help & I think my desperation probably came across as more demanding. I do appreciate all the time you've invested in helping me.
No you're not demanding, you're just a parent trying to get the best answers for your son's problems because you care so much for him. That's all and it's nothing to apologizes about. Everyone here wants to help you with that; it's just that sometimes posters here get really passionate (it's because we care so much) we know what your son went through and we want to help you find the best and least invasive option for you and for him.

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When I talked to Marilyn on the phone, she asked me to let her know how it goes, so I'm sure if I don't reach the ones she gave me, she would have more ideas. When we get to Washington, I can at least try the one DocsNemesis recommended. I still welcome any other additional info. Thanks!
I am not sure about the scar situation but I would expect infant circumcisions to have the worst scar results. In any case since you are moving to Seattle I might also suggest that when you get there you could contact Doctor's Opposing Circumcision and get an additional referral. D.O.C. is head quartered in Seattle.
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