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#1 of 25 Old 10-21-2008, 02:53 AM - Thread Starter
 
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A thought occured to me today and I wanted to share.

as I was watching my beautiful intact son run around the house naked before his bath.... By choosing not to circ' him I have likely also saved his sons, and their sons, and their sons from being circ'ed.

I have only ever met one man who was intact who wished he wasn't. Every other intact man I know likes it that way and thinks it's barbaric to cut off a piece of perfectly health skin and can't imagine doing it to their sons.

So by the simple act of not circ'ing your sons you have very possibly saved several generations of sons in your line from being circ'ed.

makes you feel kinda good don't it?

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#2 of 25 Old 10-21-2008, 03:37 AM
 
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I only have one grand daughter so I've never had to "save a grandchild" from a cutter. One of our most active intactivists here in Vancouver BC, Canada is a retired nurse from Europe who was completely horrified to find out that her grandson had been cut. I think it's important to "not assume anything" in these matters.

From being friends with her, I make it a point to vet every boyfriend of my daughters. Whenever they meet a new guy my question is "Does this guy understand that you have to give birth at home and that my grandchildren will be intact!" The reply from my girls always involves eye rolling and saying "Oh Mom, for G--'s sake, we know, we know." I don't mind being written off as a nag. When something's important to me, it get communicated over and over.
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#3 of 25 Old 10-21-2008, 05:39 AM
 
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From being friends with her, I make it a point to vet every boyfriend of my daughters. Whenever they meet a new guy my question is "Does this guy understand that you have to give birth at home and that my grandchildren will be intact!" The reply from my girls always involves eye rolling and saying "Oh Mom, for G--'s sake, we know, we know." I don't mind being written off as a nag. When something's important to me, it get communicated over and over.
You do realise that your kids will not be destroyed forever if they choose to give birth in a hospital right? My mom had a homebirth many years ago, and I choose to give birth to muy child in a borth center connected to a hospital. It doesn't make you a bad person...
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#4 of 25 Old 10-21-2008, 11:26 AM
 
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^^^ I have to agree with that. In the end, you have no hold over your children's choices. Your girls will decide for themselves what is important for them.
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#5 of 25 Old 10-21-2008, 11:56 AM
 
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I pretty sure my daughter won't circumcise either (along with my intact sons). All my children know (or will age appropriate) what circumcision is. I think we not only need to allow our sons to have whole bodies but to also educate them about intactness and circumcision (our daughters as well).

I also talk about birthing choices ect so I will know my daughter will be informed so that choice will be made with all the information she needs to make the best choice for her.

OUR DAUGHTERS ARE PROTECTED SHOULDN'T OUR SONS BE TOO! :
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#6 of 25 Old 10-21-2008, 03:30 PM
 
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I needed this today! I've been wondering why the universe keeps giving me daughters, as much as I adore them, and gives certain other people sons. : It's a long term investment I guess.

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Originally Posted by txdancer View Post
You do realise that your kids will not be destroyed forever if they choose to give birth in a hospital right?
Some women won't be, and some will. You really cannot predict the outcome or control it much once you walk in that door. Rather risky game of Russian roulette. But hey, I'm just another woman destroyed by a hospital birth, what do I know?
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#7 of 25 Old 10-21-2008, 03:38 PM
 
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Originally Posted by baybee View Post
I only have one grand daughter so I've never had to "save a grandchild" from a cutter. One of our most active intactivists here in Vancouver BC, Canada is a retired nurse from Europe who was completely horrified to find out that her grandson had been cut. I think it's important to "not assume anything" in these matters.

From being friends with her, I make it a point to vet every boyfriend of my daughters. Whenever they meet a new guy my question is "Does this guy understand that you have to give birth at home and that my grandchildren will be intact!" The reply from my girls always involves eye rolling and saying "Oh Mom, for G--'s sake, we know, we know." I don't mind being written off as a nag. When something's important to me, it get communicated over and over.
I would never presume to tell my daughters how they should give birth or how they should parent their children.
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#8 of 25 Old 10-21-2008, 05:26 PM
 
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I have never been with any man that was mutilated at birth or later; my 2 sons, 7 and 2, are as they were born>INTACT< and they both realize this is natural and my oldest has already told me when he is older that his sons will be left this way as well:
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#9 of 25 Old 10-21-2008, 05:30 PM
 
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I think it's important to talk with children of both sexes about the issue. Otherwise, your daughters may not know where you stand. Without giving your intact sons information, they may marry a very pushy pro-circ woman and just get their kids circed without knowing any better. Education is paramount, as is leaving your children intact.
I talk to my brother about this issue all the time; he's 15. We discuss all sorts of human rights issues, including this one.
Also, oddly I have a friend who is 27, and only this year realized he is circumcised. I guess he was never curious enough about it to get the info on whether he was or not. Very strange.
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#10 of 25 Old 10-21-2008, 06:02 PM
 
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Sadly, just being an intact man doesn't guarantee you'll leave your sons intact. DH has an intact friend whose wife talked him into circing their little boy. She even tried to talk him into getting circed. I'll agree, it's less likely, but we still need to pass on to our kids how important it is. Otherwise, they'll get bowled over by pro-circ spouses.
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#11 of 25 Old 10-21-2008, 06:37 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by baybee View Post
From being friends with her, I make it a point to vet every boyfriend of my daughters. Whenever they meet a new guy my question is "Does this guy understand that you have to give birth at home and that my grandchildren will be intact!" The reply from my girls always involves eye rolling and saying "Oh Mom, for G--'s sake, we know, we know." I don't mind being written off as a nag. When something's important to me, it get communicated over and over.
this is going to be me too.

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#12 of 25 Old 10-21-2008, 08:26 PM
 
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I think having an intact DH increases the odds of intact children. I've been with 2 guys one circed one not, both of them had the same views on circ "I dunno, I was/n't so I guess they will/not" boys. I married the circed one, but he doesn't have a choice! hahahaha.

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#13 of 25 Old 10-21-2008, 11:53 PM
 
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Originally Posted by quarteralien View Post
Sadly, just being an intact man doesn't guarantee you'll leave your sons intact. DH has an intact friend whose wife talked him into circing their little boy. She even tried to talk him into getting circed. I'll agree, it's less likely, but we still need to pass on to our kids how important it is. Otherwise, they'll get bowled over by pro-circ spouses.
It makes me so sad when I hear about that kind of thing happening. It must be such a blow to an intact man's ego that his wife doesn't think his penis is perfect the way it is. That in fact, she thinks it's so imperfect that she insists on having their sons' penises mutilated according to her preference, a preference which in itself is insulting to her own husband's manhood.
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#14 of 25 Old 10-22-2008, 12:24 AM
 
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Gee, I read a bit of 'funny' in the tone of Baybee's post. At least that was how I interpreted it...

As for the OP, yes, that makes me feel great! That my children will have a precedence set, and also that both of my children have experienced postive gentle birth (my sons wasn't totally, but he was a big part of my dd's birth, and my birth movie junkie pal), breastfeeding, babywearing.

I LOVE that my children walk around playing mommy- slinging their babes or animals, and ds will nurse on occasion (dd, still too young). There's not such a visible scrapbookable reminder of these things for something like intactness that we can 'coo' over, so it is absolutely a value that must be brought forth.

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#15 of 25 Old 10-22-2008, 12:39 AM
 
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Originally Posted by baybee View Post

From being friends with her, I make it a point to vet every boyfriend of my daughters. Whenever they meet a new guy my question is "Does this guy understand that you have to give birth at home and that my grandchildren will be intact!" The reply from my girls always involves eye rolling and saying "Oh Mom, for G--'s sake, we know, we know." I don't mind being written off as a nag. When something's important to me, it get communicated over and over.
This made me laugh...last weekend, a dear dear friend and I took our kids to the mall...Her son is one week older than DD and cut (we had lost touch and reunited soon after the kiddos were born). She knows how I feel about it and completely disagrees with me. (she actually left one afternoon when I was wearing an intactavist sweatshirt because she refused to be seen with me in it...It has caused a riff in our friendship..I try to let it go since I know she will not be having any other children and I am in a position to have some influence over her 2 sons when their time comes...anyway...long story short...

At the mall...she says to me "so, should we start planning the wedding?" I said something to the effect of - I don't think so since DD will will be looking for a DH with all his parts since she will know better and I don't want to be in the position of having to fight for her future sons genital integrity.

She very quickly changed the subject...I'm really not sure that our relationship will last much longer - over this and other parenting choices. It's a question of major ethical differences with genital mutilation being just one of them...it's just so hard to walk away from a 30 year friendship.


Sorry to hijack

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#16 of 25 Old 10-22-2008, 02:58 AM
 
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<<Gee, I read a bit of 'funny' in the tone of Baybee's post. At least that was how I interpreted it...>>

Definately, I thought I was making a cute and funny post--sometimes the flat print takes the charm out of my writing

When you have a dominating, controlling mother, like me, you can be pretty sure that the daughters are going to grow up with an opinion of their own

I had genital mutilation as a 17 y.o. when a doctor cut thru my perineum while I was busy giving birth. That incision cut through nerves that can never be repaired. Just because I was young, trusting and didn't know to protest, doesn't mean I had a "choice" about my genital mutilation. Why is this (expletive deleted) cutting always done on those who are vulnerable? It is the work of ignorant bullies. I am just as committed to keeping my female family members intact as I am the males in my family (read 100% committed).
I'm not just a grandmother. I am a gorilla grandmother. A gorilla grandmother is one who is operating on her own hormones. She is a force to be reckoned with. In gorilla tribes, people assume the huge silverback male is the most dangerous gorilla. Not so, it's the grandmother gorilla who will take a man apart within minutes if he dares get to close to a new mother/baby. That's the way grandmothers are supposed to be--they're not meant to stand around meekly and watch their grandchildren be assaulted.

When you're old you'll understand.
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#17 of 25 Old 10-22-2008, 03:06 AM
 
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<<Gee, I read a bit of 'funny' in the tone of Baybee's post. At least that was how I interpreted it...>>

Definately, I thought I was making a cute and funny post--sometimes the flat print takes the charm out of my writing

When you have a dominating, controlling mother, like me, you can be pretty sure that the daughters are going to grow up with an opinion of their own

I had genital mutilation as a 17 y.o. when a doctor cut thru my perineum while I was busy giving birth. That incision cut through nerves that can never be repaired. Just because I was young, trusting and didn't know to protest, doesn't mean I had a "choice" about my genital mutilation. Why is this (expletive deleted) cutting always done on those who are vulnerable? It is the work of ignorant bullies. I am just as committed to keeping my female family members intact as I am the males in my family (read 100% committed).
I'm not just a grandmother. I am a gorilla grandmother. A gorilla grandmother is one who is operating on her own hormones. She is a force to be reckoned with. In gorilla tribes, people assume the huge silverback male is the most dangerous gorilla. Not so, it's the grandmother gorilla who will take a man apart within minutes if he dares get to close to a new mother/baby. That's the way grandmothers are supposed to be--they're not meant to stand around meekly and watch their grandchildren be assaulted.

When you're old you'll understand.
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#18 of 25 Old 10-22-2008, 10:44 AM
 
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Originally Posted by liliesandliars View Post
It makes me so sad when I hear about that kind of thing happening. It must be such a blow to an intact man's ego that his wife doesn't think his penis is perfect the way it is. That in fact, she thinks it's so imperfect that she insists on having their sons' penises mutilated according to her preference, a preference which in itself is insulting to her own husband's manhood.
It was maddening to talk to him about it. I vented about it here.

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At the mall...she says to me "so, should we start planning the wedding?" I said something to the effect of - I don't think so since DD will will be looking for a DH with all his parts since she will know better and I don't want to be in the position of having to fight for her future sons genital integrity.
I've tried to tactfully say the same thing to some friends of mine. I know they are joking about the wedding, but it is an opportunity to educate them about how important I think it is. It always leaves them a bit confused, because, you know circ isn't a big deal to them. Makes me wonder if it's not such a big deal why have it done to begin with?
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#19 of 25 Old 10-22-2008, 04:52 PM
 
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It makes me so sad when I hear about that kind of thing happening. It must be such a blow to an intact man's ego that his wife doesn't think his penis is perfect the way it is. That in fact, she thinks it's so imperfect that she insists on having their sons' penises mutilated according to her preference, a preference which in itself is insulting to her own husband's manhood.
Yeah!!!
Sorry to hijack, but this very thing has been on my mind a lot lately. I have an intact SO (, and I can't imagine how some other women who do are able to be so insensitive. I mean, first of all, having an intact husband should kill a lot of the pro-circ myths pretty quickly - you can see that it isn't "dirty" or "hard to clean", you can see what a sensitive body part you're dealing with, etc. Even if it isn't enough to convince a woman to put her prejudices aside, though, she should at least realize how hurtful - no, how sick it is to tell her DH his normal, natural body is unacceptable and insist on mutilating their son's!
Imagine how obviously offensive it would be if the situation were reversed - a woman from the US married a man from a culture that practiced FGM, and he tried to talk her into getting "circed" and having it done to their daughter!

Anyway, in response to the original topic - I agree that just leaving your sons intact isn't necessarily enough. Parents need to talk about this issue with their sons and daughters, while they're still young. From what I've seen, when young children learn about circ, it tends to be an "Emperor's New Clothes" type situation, anyway. Kids can see, right off the bat, why cutting off healthy body parts just doesn't make sense, while adults sometimes don't get it.
As for birth choices, I want my daughters to be well-informed, but I recognize that the type of birth they feel most comfortable with might not be the same as what I prefer for myself. I do hope that my example (having all my babies at home) will give them confidence in their bodies and nature's design to counteract all the messages to the contrary (which I fear will only be louder 20 years from now ).
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#20 of 25 Old 10-22-2008, 05:29 PM
 
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Furthering the hijack.

What about women who talk to their circed husbands about restoration? Depending on how that's approached, that could certainly be seen as a blow to his male ego, that she thinks he isn't good enough on his own and needs to alter his body to be better. It's a sticky situation.

And yes, that particular set of friends continue to blow my mind.
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#21 of 25 Old 10-22-2008, 05:59 PM
 
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Furthering the hijack.

What about women who talk to their circed husbands about restoration? Depending on how that's approached, that could certainly be seen as a blow to his male ego, that she thinks he isn't good enough on his own and needs to alter his body to be better. It's a sticky situation.
Well, I suppose it can be a blow to his ego, but then - his body has already been altered, kwim? A woman who criticises her DHs intact status, is attacking his natural state - and telling him she wants part of him cut off. It seems to me that, like as a parent, I see every part of my children as precious, a woman who loves her husband should feel that way about every part of him (not counting a tumor or something!). Does that make sense?
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#22 of 25 Old 10-22-2008, 09:16 PM
 
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I would never presume to tell my daughters how they should give birth or how they should parent their children.
Circumcision is not a "parenting" decision. Period. Not your body, not your decision.

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#23 of 25 Old 10-22-2008, 10:25 PM
 
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Yep, I am very happy to have broken the cycle.
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#24 of 25 Old 10-23-2008, 07:11 AM
 
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Circumcision is not a "parenting" decision. Period. Not your body, not your decision.
: Genital integrity should be a basic human right. It's unnecessary and barbaric and when you force it on a minor child, it's a human rights violation.
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#25 of 25 Old 10-23-2008, 10:17 AM
 
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Genital integrity should be a basic human right. It's unnecessary and barbaric and when you force it on a minor child, it's a human rights violation.
Exactly! If you really look at the act w/o cultural blinders, strapping down a baby spread eagle and cutting off a part of his/her genitals is absurd and disgusting. Doesn't sound much like a parenting decision to me (it does sound like something much less benign).

OUR DAUGHTERS ARE PROTECTED SHOULDN'T OUR SONS BE TOO! :
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