How to discuss non-circ with Muslim family? - Page 2 - Mothering Forums
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#31 of 46 Old 01-30-2004, 02:18 PM
 
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I totally understand what you are saying but you and your husband is the parents and must do what is right for your child and not no one else no matter how different their opinions may be.

God is good.

Good Luck
Fay
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#32 of 46 Old 02-05-2004, 11:15 PM
 
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I know I'm coming in so late on this topic that maybe nobody will even see this, but I just wanted to point out a few things I think were missed here:

1) The links that were posted are not representative of mainstream Islamic thought. The mandate for circumcision comes from statements of the Prophet which, in mainstream Sunni Islam, is the second half of the source for Islamic law along with the Qur'an. The "Qur'an only" sect is a very tiny group with very few followers.

2) There is no exact statement by the Prophet as to the exact reason for circumcision, so although we can *speculate* that it's for cleanliness reasons, we don't know that for sure. IF cleanliness is one of the reasons, it's because a person's prayer is invalid if there are any traces of urine left on their body and shaving of pubic hair and (for men) circumcision would facilitate this cleaning. Other than that, we know that this is something God has requested and we need to follow that regardless of the reasons.

3) The type of circumcisions practiced by Western doctors today (using the Gomco clamp or Plastibell methods) are extremist and go way beyond the traditional method done in Muslim countries where doctors haven't taken over circumcision. Instead they use what is basically the Mogen clamp method where only a tiny portion of the bottom of the foreskin is removed, as opposed to the whole thing all the way up the shaft of the penis which is what the other two methods do. As Islam prohibits unnecessary mutilation of the body, my personal opinion is that those two methods are Islamically unacceptable.

So maybe there is a compromise here, where the minimal kind of circumcision could be done. It can be difficult to find a practitioner who will do this, sometimes it even takes finding the Jewish (is it mohel?) who will do it that way.

Incidentally, I can't believe they were shocked about the not shaving the head thing, because that is NOT obligatory, although it is highly recommended. Maybe only half of the families in our local Islamic center even do it!

Just my .02

Umm Zaynab
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#33 of 46 Old 02-06-2004, 07:22 AM
 
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Uhm, maybe I don't get this, but how can the removal of a "tiny portion from the bottom of the foreskin" help in keeping traces of urine from the body? As long as the foreskin's still there and covering the glans, urine can get "trapped" under there (unless, of course, the man retracts to urinate – hey, a simple trick to "keep clean" without cutting! And why not simply wash before prayer?). To achieve this effect, you'd have to remove at least so much of the foreskin that the glans is only partly covered, and that sounds much more extreme than what you described as a non-medicalized Islamic circumcision. And as far as I understand, if this kind of partial circumcision is done during childhood, chances are high that it'll look (and work) more or less like a radical circumcision once the boy's grown.

Anyway, to me, it doesn't make a difference how much is cut off. A violation of a child's right to bodily integrity is a violation of a child's right to bodily integrity is a violation... BTW, I suppose that where doctors haven't taken over circumcision, no one bothers with pain relief techniques, right? All in all, it doesn't sound one bit better to me.

The more I learn about this, the more I think that Islamic circumcision is as much searching for a definite reason or justification (I've read so many: cleanliness, to honour Abraham, because Mohammed was born "circumcised", because it's always been done, because that makes him one of the men, to curb the "dirty" sexuality of men) as RIC in the USA is searching for a disease to cure. At least, within Judaism, the reason is clear-cut and documented (even though that's being disputed as well...).

Can you provide me with the quote(s) where God specifically requests or commands circumcision? And where does it say that it has to be done in childhood? Thank you!

Whatever the reasons, I think the decision should be left for the adult man to make.

Stardust
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#34 of 46 Old 02-06-2004, 02:21 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Stardust27


The more I learn about this, the more I think that Islamic circumcision is as much searching for a definite reason or justification (I've read so many: cleanliness, to honour Abraham, because Mohammed was born "circumcised", because it's always been done, because that makes him one of the men, to curb the "dirty" sexuality of men) as RIC in the USA is searching for a disease to cure. At least, within Judaism, the reason is clear-cut and documented (even though that's being disputed as well...).


Quote:
Can you provide me with the quote(s) where God specifically requests or commands circumcision? And where does it say that it has to be done in childhood? Thank you!
Stardust [/QUOTE]

If this is the case than you should continue with your intactivism because it matters not what Islamic law states about circumcision, it will have no effect on what you think. You say that "at least judaism the reason is clear cut and documented" and proceed to insult the beliefs of millions of people because of your lack of understanding of Islamic law. If you believe so wholeheartedly in circumcision being a violation, then why the comparison between judaism and islam? Does it matter whose law says what if you find it so repulsive? Or is your protest just a thinly veiled attempt to degrade Islam?

At any rate according to the rules of the board:

So I ask that discussion of a religious nature be discontinued on this board.

If you would like to understand and discuss the spiritual laws related to circumcision as they are presented and practiced in the faiths of the world you may take that discussion to the Spirituality board with respect, appreciation, and sincerity.


If you are sincerely interested in understanding Islamic laws as they relate to circimcision then I will gladly PM you or we can respectfully take it to the Spirituality forum. If you are only interested in insulting the religious beliefs of so many mamas here, then there is no reason to waste my time or yours.
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#35 of 46 Old 02-06-2004, 05:04 PM
 
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The more I learn about this, the more I think that Islamic circumcision is as much searching for a definite reason or justification (I've read so many: cleanliness, to honour Abraham, because Mohammed was born "circumcised", because it's always been done, because that makes him one of the men, to curb the "dirty" sexuality of men) as RIC in the USA is searching for a disease to cure. At least, within Judaism, the reason is clear-cut and documented (even though that's being disputed as well...).

Can you provide me with the quote(s) where God specifically requests or commands circumcision? And where does it say that it has to be done in childhood? Thank you!

Whatever the reasons, I think the decision should be left for the adult man to make.

Stardust [/B][/QUOTE] >>>>

Nowhere in the Koran does it state that circumcision is required.Circumcision is something that man commanded. I think I understand your comparision of judaism and islam regarding circumcision.Many articles mention circ in islam not being clear cut since the timing of and sex of those circed varies so much.

Man was mutilating the genitals of both sexes before either religion(islam/judaism) came along. Religion just gave some legitimacy/protection to the act. I agree,violation of personal rights.Whose to say a child won't grow up and want to be a part of another religion?

Hopefully in time both religions will abandom this practice for something far more peaceful and welcoming.We simply do not need to be cutting at our genitals for any reason.
Take care!
Sara
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#36 of 46 Old 02-06-2004, 08:53 PM
 
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I think i can address this issue without getting into a debate about religion . . . . . Just by sharing a little information.

Christians, Jews and Muslims all believe in the Old Testament of the Bible and it does in fact prescribe Abrahamic circumcision on the eighth day after the birth. Where Christians separate from Muslims and Jews is at the birth of Christ. Circumcision is a blood sacrifice and according to the New Testament, Christ was the (Sacrificial) "Lamb of God" and shed his blood for us that we do not have to ever shed our blood for the approval of God. Simply, Muslims and Jews do not believe that Christ was the son of God and therefore, they are commanded to continue to participate in the blood sacrifices.

Now, maybe someone can answer some questions for me. First, why do Muslims circumcise children instead of infants as prescribed in the Bible and second, why have Jews abandoned all blood sacrificial rituals for themselves but continue to force the one remaining blood sacrifice on their babes?






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#37 of 46 Old 02-08-2004, 04:24 AM
 
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T as it concerns Frank's question about Jews ...

Frank far be it from me to go against the board rules and bring up religion, but since you asked, I'll answer.

First, the "blood sacrifice" thing is entirely *your* theology's descriptor, not mine.

Bris milah is entirely unrelated to concept of sacrifices. Nothing to do with it. Entirely unrelated. Completely separate. Different issue. No connection. Zip. Zero. Zilch. Nada.

We no longer perform the sacrifices because there is no longer a Temple in Jerusalem.

Bris milah has nothing to do with the Temple in Jerusalem. No connection. Entirely unrelated. Completely separate. Different issue. No connection. Zip. Zero. Zilch. Nada.

So what does the fact that there are no longer sacrifices in a Temple have to do with the fact that bris milah continues?

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#38 of 46 Old 02-09-2004, 10:22 AM
 
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Does the infant not sacrifice his foreskin? Is there any such thing as a bloodless circumcision? Some of the Jewish parents that reject circumcision still have the foreskin nicked to shed a little blood. If it's not a blood ritual, why the insistence on shedding blood? Sorry, it just doesn't add up.





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#39 of 46 Old 02-09-2004, 02:19 PM
 
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Frank it doesn't add up because you're looking at it through your eyes, and you don't understand anything not in your own paradigm. Think outside of your own box, Frank.

Christians do the blood sacrifice stuff, Frank. Not Jews.

That is not the point of bris milah. If you'd like to think of it that way, fine, that's your choice, it's a free country, and comes totally from your imagination. But that's not what it is.

Get past it, Frank.



In re those Jewish parents who reject circumcision but insist on shedding blood ... I have no clue, Frank, because what they are doing is their own imagination and their own invented ritual that has nothing ... zero, zip, nada, zilch ... to do with bris milah. And if they choose to "shed blood" as their variant, then you'll have to ask them why, because they made it up out of whole cloth and because I have no clue. None at all.
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#40 of 46 Old 02-09-2004, 04:00 PM
 
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Oh, Amy! Those who live in glass houses should not throw stones!

No where in Christianity is there a command for blood sacrifice. Not the blood of humans, not the blood of our children and not the blood of animals in sacrifice. I don't know where you got that idea but you are totally off base there. Christians sacrifice our money in tithing, we sacrifice ourselves in love and forgiveness and we sacrifice our time in service. Blood is never sacrificed to our God. Never.

I am past it. I am past shedding the blood of innocent children for the possible future sins of having their full sexuality. I am not commanded by my God to harm children and I wouldn't do it even if I were. I would just have to find a more gentle and loving God. Thankfully, I don't have to go to that extreme.

A little introspection may be helpful.





Frank
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#41 of 46 Old 02-10-2004, 02:37 AM
 
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T Continuing the off-topic responses to Frank. Whom I know is a hero around this board, so am treading very lightly here.

Why else I'd be bothering with this I surely don't know.

:








Frank. Duh. I know there are no commands for sacrifices in Christianity.

Since you insist on "misunderstanding" me, I will elaborate in one line: Christianity does the whole Jesus-Sacrificed-For-Our-Sins thing. "This is my body, this is my blood." That's what I meant.

Jews don't "do" blood. And you know it. You just want to rile me up.

Am conscious of the ease-of-riling of my pg hormones, so am going to make the effort not to be riled up



Read the rest of my post, Frank, it's an answer to your question.

Jews don't do blood sacrifices either. Haven't for 2,000 years.
Bris has nothing to do with blood sacrifices, Frank. Live and learn.

Oh, and as usual, appreciating the kind suggestion that my G!d is evil and that yours is loving. Jesus might take issue with that, sir. Since his G!d was mine.

Not living in glass houses here or throwing stones, Frank. Now stop throwing them at me and mine, please.
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#42 of 46 Old 02-10-2004, 02:44 AM
 
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Not to hi-jack this thread, but damn i hate religion i swear, it's so damn annoying and no one can ever get along. I'm not flaming you guys, i love you guys, i'm just kinda getting out my anger over bible-thumpers and this is the perfect oppurtunity i guess.
Sorry i'm just pissed tonight over people's ignorance over the usual....., circ, vegetarianism, me?

Eric
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#43 of 46 Old 02-10-2004, 02:56 AM
 
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OK, STOP PLEASE BOTH OF YOU! Amy and Frank, I like both of you a lot and although I think both of you are coming from well-intentioned places PLEASE STOP. Both of you know perfectly well that this discussion is against the rules, and while I admit to a certain sick voyeuristic pleasure in watching you two duel it out YOU KNOW IT'S AGAINST THE RULES and one of these days might get one of you kicked off, which would be a crying shame for everyone.



So just stop, or take it to PM. This is not the place for it.


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#44 of 46 Old 02-10-2004, 09:39 AM
 
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Amy:

I have no goal to rile you up. You really don't even come up on my radar screen except when you come here and inject your religion into the discussion. I only respond to you. I really don't understand why you can't stay away from this discussion. It always comes to the same thing. This site purposely tries to stay away from any religious discussion.

Saying that ritual circumcision is a blood rite is totally correct. It is the shedding of blood for religious purposes. Please tell me which part is incorrect. Is it not for religious purposes or is there no blood shed? If both are correct, then it is a blood ritual. If it walks on four feet, has a tail that wags and barks, it is a dog.





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#45 of 46 Old 02-10-2004, 11:04 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Frankly Speaking
Amy:

I have no goal to rile you up. You really don't even come up on my radar screen except when you come here and inject your religion into the discussion. I only respond to you. I really don't understand why you can't stay away from this discussion. It always comes to the same thing. This site purposely tries to stay away from any religious discussion.



Frank


This thread is entirely about dissuading people of varying religious beliefs from circumcision. Read the thread title. The Muslims and Jews who posted here *all* tried to do it sensitively and with tact.

And in this thread *all* of my posts were in direct response to *your* questions. If you wouldn't have asked the questions, I wouldn't have attempted answers. Unless your questions were meant to be rhetorical and purely for baiting purposes.

You don't merit attention on my radar either, Frank. As long as you don't spread misinformation and distortion about me and mine.
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#46 of 46 Old 02-10-2004, 07:57 PM
 
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I am closing this until I can figure out what to do with it.
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