Having a boy... to circ or not to circ? - Page 3 - Mothering Forums
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#61 of 107 Old 12-12-2008, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by BnInTheOvn View Post
Someone said to check out the circ video... where do I go about doing that?
Here is the video of the procedure.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...27632617&hl=en
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#62 of 107 Old 12-12-2008, 07:53 PM
 
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Hey there, if you're still reading here is a 24 page doc on the procedure (all the possible current ones). http://tinyurl.com/5eq4cz

WARNING NSFW and GRAPHIC.
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#63 of 107 Old 12-12-2008, 08:14 PM
 
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: yeah for you for getting all the facts!! IMO that the important part!

I'm crunchy... Like a Dorito.
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#64 of 107 Old 12-12-2008, 08:27 PM
 
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The simple answer is not to circumcise anybody.

There is no harm from not circumcising.

I have 2 boys aged 15 and 11 and neither has ever had any problems with their penis and its foreskin.

We are in the UK and we are considered totally normal; not wacko, crazy, irresponsible, crunchy, or anything else. Just normal.
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#65 of 107 Old 12-12-2008, 09:04 PM
 
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this!!

UK here too, routine, non religious, non medically indicated circ does not exist here, just as with the rest of Europe. Estimated over 90% of the population are intact (the ones that are not are mostly Jewish or Muslim)

Yet, you don't hear of countless people going off for circs later in life, they're all pretty happy with their penises so it seems... and everyone who I've talked to about RIC as it is done in the USA is utterly shocked and horrified. It's a cultural mindset and I think that stops many Americans from seeing the true horror that is circumcision.


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Originally Posted by orangefoot View Post
The simple answer is not to circumcise anybody.

There is no harm from not circumcising.

I have 2 boys aged 15 and 11 and neither has ever had any problems with their penis and its foreskin.

We are in the UK and we are considered totally normal; not wacko, crazy, irresponsible, crunchy, or anything else. Just normal.
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#66 of 107 Old 12-12-2008, 09:22 PM
 
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Congrats on the pregnancy! :

I was on the fence my whole pregnancy, and even after he was born on what to do. It was the norm in my life to circ, and same in my boyfriends. We ended up deciding against it, and all the things that made me teeter the other way of getting it done, now seem so silly to me. It was one of the biggest sources of turmoil for me until we finally made the choice not to. We are so thankful and happy with our choice. I hope all the information here is helpful.

I also wanted to add that I think it is great that you are actively searching out the absolute best for your son. He is one blessed boy to have such a loving Mama!

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#67 of 107 Old 12-12-2008, 09:29 PM
 
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I haven't read past this, but will address these points, anyway...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BnInTheOvn View Post
I have SO MANY questions!! And my reasonings for considering it are as follows:

1. I am not a boy, don't have a boy, and have never seen an uncirced penis. I don't know exact %, but I do know that most males are circed in the US. However, I do know that it is a "European" thing not to circ (my grandfather is from Germany, and I know he is not circed and that it isn't as common over there?). But the fact that most US males are has led me to assume that there must be a reason for it.
I don't remember the source, but I've seen quotes that show quite clearly that the original reason for routine infant circumcision in North America was an attempt to promote "moral cleanliness". That is, it was believed that they could stop boys from masturbating by amputating a very sensitive piece of their penises. The biggest "reason" it continues is force of habit...men who don't want their sons to be intact, because they aren't, and I've even seen quotes from women saying they'll circ their sons, so that they have a "prettier" penis.

Quote:
2. My fiance is circed, and when I even brought it up, he said "We are circ-ing him." His standpoint was that he wouldn't want our son to be made fun of when he has to change in front of other boys (or feel like he can't change in front of them), or feel like he is "different", or feel insecure with his body in front of a woman.
Circ rates are dropping in the US. They're lower here in Canada. My 15 year old ds1 has never expressed any feeling that he's a freak or different because he's intact. In terms of feeling insecure with women, I've heard more than one woman say that after being with an intact man, she won't have sex with one who is circ'd. Of the women I know who don't go that far, but have had sex with both, every one of them prefers a partner who is intact. I can't say from personal experience, as men of my generation were almost all circ'd, so I've never had a chance to experience sex the way it's supposed to be...but from all accounts, it's more pleasurable and far less likely to cause soreness. This isn't an issue.

Quote:
3. I have heard (and realize from PP that this is not true??) that it is harder to keep the area clean. I am wondering though-- when your boys get to age 5-10ish, when they really arent capable of cleaning it well themselves but it becomes uncomfortable to have mommy touching, what then? Or is cleaning not as big of a process or deal as I'm imagining?
Cleaning is not an issue. Once the foreskin retracts, a swish through bath water or letting shower water run on it is perfectly adequate. DS2 isn't quite 3.5, and he cleans his own penis in the tub, including his foreskin (his started to retract very young). It's not a problem at all.

ETA: I don't know if you and/or your fiance have thought about the "he needs to look like daddy" argument, but if so, I want to counter that, too. We don't go around routinely giving infant boys a hair transplant into their genital region, so the "look like daddy" excuse is self-evidently idiotic. Infant penises don't look like that of a grown man, whether they're both circ'd, both intact, or one of each.

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#68 of 107 Old 12-12-2008, 09:50 PM
 
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I haven't read the other responses, and other people can give you more detailed medical info and all, but I just wanted to chime in as a mother of two intact boys, one preschool age and one just a few weeks old. Neither has had any problems whatsoever, and I'm glad we have chosen to leave them intact. I hope they will choose to remain that way, but at least I am not going to take the choice away from them. Quite simply, it's not my body and not my choice to make. (Thankfully my DH has always agreed with me that we don't want to do it, and it's been a total non-issue around our house.)

I also can't imagine putting a newborn through all that pain, both during the surgery and in the days afterward. Even with the gentle births we've had, being born and adjusting to life outside the womb is still so much for a newborn to process; I make it such a point in the first several weeks to nurse my newborn on cue, cuddle him a lot, etc., and it just goes against every maternal instinct I have to think about choosing painful elective cosmetic surgery for my baby in the absence of compelling medical information. And from a selfish standpoint, it would be a lot more for *me* to deal with immediately postpartum when I'm dealing with hormone changes, milk coming in, lochia, etc. Not going to make things harder for myself, for sure!

Bottom line: just leave him alone and enjoy him the way he is. And congrats -- I've enjoyed having boys way more than I even thought I would!

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#69 of 107 Old 12-12-2008, 10:06 PM
 
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Our 9 mo boy is intact. Dh wanted to circ. We talked about it a lot. If our first had been a boy, he probably would have been circ'd, but fortunately, we had a girl.

I went through a process after dd was born where I re-evaluated why we would have circ'd a boy, and realized it didn't really make sense on balance.

It took a long time to convince dh. In the end, he only seemed to relent because I was so upset about the alternative. It was tough.

After our son was born (maybe a month or two after), he told me that he was glad ds wasn't circ'd. That he really did think it was better and he was glad we didn't do that to him. It was hard for him to get there, but he got there.

We've had no problems with the intact penis. Looks great, works great, no probs!

My dad and brother are both intact. They're the ones who got me thinking about it. They're both very happy the way they are and have never had any problems. No one in my dad's family has been circ'd, ever . . . his parents were from Russia and Germany. Just not done there.

My brother grew up intact in the midwest of the U.S. and he never had any problems with teasing or any other issues about being intact.

I am so, so glad our ds is intact. I know we did the right thing.
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#70 of 107 Old 12-12-2008, 10:53 PM
 
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I'd like to specifically adress the "pros" of circ.
  1. UTI prevention: even if one takes the nonrandomized studies at face value, the potetial benefit is not great enough to out way the potential risks. The risk of UTI for an inact boy is 1%; The risk of severe bleeding during the circ or post op infection is 2%, the risk of meatal stenosis is 10%, the risk of adhessions is 70%.
  2. STD, HIV, AIDS prevention: Aside from all the studies having huge flaws, your son should not be having sex till he is a teenager, by which time he will be old enough to make his own choices and several more years of research into these illnesses may have changed the issues. So, if you have your DS circ'd to prevent HIV now and they have a vaccine in ten years...
  3. Cervical cancer prevention: The 1920s study that this was based on has been proven completely inaccurate.
  4. Penile cancer prevention: Again this is based on flawed studies but taking it at face value, the risks of circ out weigh the risk of penile cancer. Penile cancer is extremely rare and generally happens to men in their 70s or 80s. The risk of death from penile cancer in old age is lower than the risk of death during the circ of a healthy infant.
  5. Masterbation prevention: It doesn't work, and even if it did would you want it to?
  6. Cleanliness: I've cleaned both my intact son, and circed babies I have baby sat. Just trust me, intact is easier.
  7. Cosmetic appearance: While attractiveness is always open to interpretation, intact penises are veiwed in most places around the world as the natural norm. No one ever complains about Michealangelo's "David." (Though the historical David would be circ'd the statue is intact.)

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#71 of 107 Old 12-13-2008, 03:03 AM
 
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To me the argument goes like this. Leaving the child whole as he was born or cut off a perfectly designed, functional body part of an infant just hours or days after he is born.

That is the reality of the situation. Reading that I totally don't understand how there is even a doubt as to the answer.
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#72 of 107 Old 12-13-2008, 03:22 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Arduinna View Post

That is the reality of the situation. Reading that I totally don't understand how there is even a doubt as to the answer.
ITA!

Just the thought of cutting off part of someone elses genitals just seems like such a strange thing to do...if you forget about culture and tradition and all the other nonsense that surrounds this issue and bring it down to it's core it's laughable (if it weren't so disturbing)..

anyone considering male genital mutilation is contemplating cutting off part of someone elses genitals...it's weird!

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#73 of 107 Old 12-13-2008, 04:04 AM
 
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I just wanted to add that Im so glad I found this forum when I was in your place, OP. I just thought circ'ing was what you did, something that had to be done, and thankfully, I learned that is false.

My son is almost 9 months, and i've never had to do ANYTHING special to his penis to clean it. Its even easier to clean than a baby girl's genitalia is, IMO. And once that baby is about 6 months and realizes "Hey, whats that thing down there? Lets play with it!" Believe me, you will understand that when he is 5-10, you';ll be more worried about whether he cleaned behind his ears, lol.

As for the husband, I made the decision, and he dealt with it. At this point, he now realizes we made the right choice. And I think he's starting to realize what he's missing. I dont' want him to be sad or angry at his parents, but I do want him to realize that he left his son with somethig that was taken from him, ya know?

Artie, mom to Riley 3/22/08 and a surprise due Oct 2011!
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#74 of 107 Old 12-13-2008, 06:33 AM
 
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Originally Posted by BnInTheOvn View Post
3. I have heard (and realize from PP that this is not true??) that it is harder to keep the area clean. I am wondering though-- when your boys get to age 5-10ish, when they really arent capable of cleaning it well themselves but it becomes uncomfortable to have mommy touching, what then? Or is cleaning not as big of a process or deal as I'm imagining?
I haven't read all the replies so please forgive if this has already been stated but you will not have any difficulty in having your son keep clean when he's older. I'm not trying to be overly crude but...boys masterbate in the shower all the time! So it's really not that hard to get an older boy to play with his penis during shower time. Plus, anytime a boy/man thinks there is even a remote chance that he can get a girlfriend/date to touch his penis in any way possible, he's going to make sure it's nice and clean (that goes for both circed and intact boys). Teenage boys think about sex quite a bit. Trust me, he'll keep it clean. It's a possibility he won't even be retractable until pre-teen or teenage years, so don't worry too much about it during that time. Just remind him to periodically rinse off his manly bits just like you'd remind him to floss his teeth or clean his ears.

My little boy is intact and has never had any issues at all. I must say though, even if I could have been 100% assured he would suffer no pain or complications, I still wouldn't have had him circumcised. To me, the pain, as awful as it is, is just a temporary issue. It boils down to the foreskin is his body part and it's healthy and functional and he was born with it. It's not mine to alter. It's just my job to love him exactly as he is.
He doesn't match his circed daddy but he doesn't match his sister or his mother either. And despite all of that, we were all able to learn to use the toilet and we can all sleep well at night. We've never once sat around and compared genitals, so it's really a non-issue in our family.

Here are a few more links in case nobody else has posted them:

http://nocircpa.org/4642.html

http://www.homiegfunk.com/RIC2.htm

http://www.circumstitions.com/Itsaboy.html

http://www.infocirc.org/uti2.htm

http://noharmm.org/appeal.htm (might be a good one to have your partner read)

http://www.healthcentral.com/drdean/408/9985.html (from a Dr. posted on Health Central)

If you haven't already, please search for photos and videos of infant circumcision and photos of botched circs.
Good luck to you. I hope you choose to keep your son intact. I promise, it's very easy to take care of an intact child.

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#75 of 107 Old 12-13-2008, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by eepster View Post
[*]Penile cancer prevention: Again this is based on flawed studies but taking it at face value, the risks of circ out weigh the risk of penile cancer. Penile cancer is extremely rare and generally happens to men in their 70s or 80s. The risk of death from penile cancer in old age is lower than the risk of death during the circ of a healthy infant.
Important to mention that cancer can grow on circumcision scars:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/en...t_uids=3944860

The tumors involved the prepuce (n = 1), prepuce and distal shaft (n = 1), circumcision scar line (n = 2), circumcision scar line and distal shaft
http://www.ajsp.com/pt/re/ajsp/abstr...195629!8091!-1
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#76 of 107 Old 12-13-2008, 12:01 PM
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Its even easier to clean than a baby girl's genitalia is, IMO.
I SOOO totally agree. Every time I wash my daughter's privets, I think about just HOW MUCH EASIER it is to wash my intact son's privets.

I should have circ her...all those folds are such a headache!
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#77 of 107 Old 12-13-2008, 01:15 PM
 
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Hi Mama,

Congratulations on your new baby.

First I would like to say that before you make any decision, look back in the archives and find the posts here from Mamas who wish they never would have circ'd. The guilt and rage they feel is very apparent in their posts. They can never take that moment back, and many say if they could have only gone back in time they would have ran out of the Ped office/hospital with their perfect little son and his perfect little penis!

My son is 18 months old, and intact. My husband is circ'd, but was REALLY anti-circ once we started having babies (thank you Howard Stern!!!)

My point to this is life with a circ'd husband and intact son is no big deal. He watches Daddy pee, and he thinks it is great, just as if he Daddy looked just like him. If you don't make him feel like HE is the odd duck, than he won't be. The truth is your husband will have to give up a little manhood, which is so hard for some guys, and tell him that his penis is the one that is not natural, and your son's is perfect. I thank my lucky stars my husband has no problem with this, but maybe yours will. It is your husband's responsibility to break the chain of mutilation. Don't let his pride get in the way of what is right.

Plus, if my husband ever told me that I had to circ my baby, I would tell him to sit down and zip it. Good thing he agreed! (thanks again Howard Stern!!)

Good luck! You have some awesome information in this thread!
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#78 of 107 Old 12-13-2008, 01:54 PM
 
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My dh and I were completely ignorant regarding circumcision until following the birth of our dd1. Before becoming educated on the topic, I had never considered not circing my son. It just seemed like it was the thing to do.

Once I'd done my research, I asked dh what he thought and he wanted to circ. I presented information to him and he is now an even bigger intactavist than I am. He's even gotten into an argument with his bestfriend over the issue. He feels robbed of his foreskin and the plesure it might have provided.

Reasons we both changed our minds.

1) Boys are born that way and even the American Association of Pediatrics doesn't recomend routine infant circumcision.

2) One of dh's reasons to circ was so his son would look like him. Well... my dd's labia don't look like mine and I'm certainly not going to get surgery on her to make them mirror me.

3) The foreskin has a function and taking it off of a penis disturbs the natural pleasure/protection it provides.

4) The majority of America is not ciricing any longer.

5) Europeans don't circ and their penises are fine.

I hope you make an informed decision on this OP, as circing is one that can't be reversed.
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#79 of 107 Old 12-13-2008, 03:38 PM
 
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I'll put a link to my site (why not?):

http://emmagfunk03.googlepages.com/circumcision
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#80 of 107 Old 12-13-2008, 07:32 PM
 
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Everytime I hear someone say " before you make the decision " I want to scream. It should not be even up for consideration to sexually mutilate your child. Period. Listen to what you are saying people ( meant generally to anyone that considers circ a choice ). Listen to each word and see the action that they imply. Do you notice the appalling and destructive action you are discussing? We are talking the choice of parents to cut off parts of their childs genitals. The question being asked at all is just insane.
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#81 of 107 Old 12-13-2008, 07:37 PM
 
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ITA!

Just the thought of cutting off part of someone elses genitals just seems like such a strange thing to do...if you forget about culture and tradition and all the other nonsense that surrounds this issue and bring it down to it's core it's laughable (if it weren't so disturbing)..

anyone considering male genital mutilation is contemplating cutting off part of someone elses genitals...it's weird!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arduinna View Post
Everytime I hear someone say " before you make the decision " I want to scream. It should not be even up for consideration to sexually mutilate your child. Period. Listen to what you are saying people ( meant generally to anyone that considers circ a choice ). Listen to each word and see the action that they imply. Do you notice the appalling and destructive action you are discussing? We are talking the choice of parents to cut off parts of their childs genitals. The question being asked at all is just insane.

Victim of Birth Rape & Coerced ribboncesarean.gifUnnecesareanribboncesarean.gif What makes people think they can cut up someone else's genitals? nocirc.gif
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#82 of 107 Old 12-13-2008, 08:16 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arduinna View Post
Everytime I hear someone say " before you make the decision " I want to scream. It should not be even up for consideration to sexually mutilate your child. Period. Listen to what you are saying people ( meant generally to anyone that considers circ a choice ). Listen to each word and see the action that they imply. Do you notice the appalling and destructive action you are discussing? We are talking the choice of parents to cut off parts of their childs genitals. The question being asked at all is just insane.
I could not agree more.

OUR DAUGHTERS ARE PROTECTED SHOULDN'T OUR SONS BE TOO! :
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#83 of 107 Old 12-13-2008, 09:42 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Arduinna View Post
Everytime I hear someone say " before you make the decision " I want to scream. It should not be even up for consideration to sexually mutilate your child. Period. Listen to what you are saying people ( meant generally to anyone that considers circ a choice ). Listen to each word and see the action that they imply. Do you notice the appalling and destructive action you are discussing? We are talking the choice of parents to cut off parts of their childs genitals. The question being asked at all is just insane.
ITA, but when I bring up the subject to a person who lives in a circ'ing culture and thinks it's *totally normal* I tend to tread lightly. Preaching has never gotten me very far! Unfortunately, male circ IS a choice for any parent in this country and it's always better IMO to present the information and leave the "ah ha" moment up to them. Of course, I've only just started my intactivism, so I don't have much of a leg to stand on!

Mama to two girls 12/05 and 8/09

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#84 of 107 Old 12-13-2008, 09:53 PM
 
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ITA, but when I bring up the subject to a person who lives in a circ'ing culture and thinks it's *totally normal* I tend to tread lightly. Preaching has never gotten me very far! Unfortunately, male circ IS a choice for any parent in this country and it's always better IMO to present the information and leave the "ah ha" moment up to them. Of course, I've only just started my intactivism, so I don't have much of a leg to stand on!
: I've also found this. If you rage on at them about mutation they just feel like the are being pelted with granola by a crazy woman in an ivory tower on a horse on a soap box.

Although, on the inside I'm on my horse in my tower chucking granola. Thats the inside tho, its weird in there

I'm crunchy... Like a Dorito.
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#85 of 107 Old 12-13-2008, 09:55 PM
 
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Originally Posted by BnInTheOvn View Post
The idea that "well yes, it hurts, but the baby will never remember it" is just horrifying to me. My daughter broke her leg at 1 year, and wont remember it. But that doesnt mean it didnt hurt so I should break the other one too... I just hate that form of reasoning that they wont remember it. I cant imagine hurting a little baby like that.
In a different post it was compared to tearing off a fingernail, is that accurate??
A friends son does remember his circ, and told his mom about it in detail as a child... the really sad part is they did it in the hospital despite the parents saying they dod NOT want him circ'd.

Another friend's baby is 2.5mo and still screams during diaper changes. What does it do to a baby to have the most sensitive part of your body.. .your sex organ partially amputated as one of your first life experiences?: Gives me the chills to think about it.
I'll tell you from personal experiencethat sex with an intact man is on a whole different level. PM me if you want more info on that.
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#86 of 107 Old 12-13-2008, 10:36 PM
 
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BnInTheOven--One other thing to do while deciding is to stop using the term "uncirced". You are not undoing anything when you leave your baby intact. You are leaving your baby as he was born--natural and perfectly intact.

I think the terms "uncirced" and "uncut" perpetuate the idea that circumcision is normal and that to not circumcise takes a lot of effort and action. And it does not, it is very simple, leave your baby as is.
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#87 of 107 Old 12-14-2008, 01:35 AM
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Teenage boys think about sex quite a bit. Trust me, he'll keep it clean.
Although I am an intactivist and my boys are intact, I have to disagree with this.

I know quite a few teenaged boys, and some of them still have to be prodded to shower daily. My almost 17yo is one of them, and a few of my boys' friends have admitted to not showering all that often. I can't speak for the other boys, but I inherited my son's computer when we upgraded his, and I found some pretty interesting things on it....I know he thinks about sex!

I also run into teens and grown men who can't be bothered to use deodorant and don't seem to have any sense of smell. They look clean, but smell bad. Last night my two sons had two other boys sleeping over. They were all in the basement playing video games when I got home from work, and I could smell the stench of B.O. on the first floor. I hollered down the stairs and said "whoever smells like armpit needs to clean up and put on a fresh shirt." They all laughed and argued over who was the stinky one.

However, I think that daily showering/bathing is mostly a social issue, and not a health issue. So, while a guy might not smell very nice if he doesn't clean himself often enough, he's not necessarily going to do himself any harm (except in the dating arena). Europeans during the Middle Ages were filthy people, and I don't recall hordes of men dying from penile funk.
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#88 of 107 Old 12-14-2008, 02:23 AM
 
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Europeans during the Middle Ages were filthy people, and I don't recall hordes of men dying from penile funk.

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#89 of 107 Old 12-14-2008, 03:05 AM
 
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Europeans during the Middle Ages were filthy people, and I don't recall hordes of men dying from penile funk.
Ditto, this is precisely why the hygiene argument is baseless. Most Europeans in the Middle Ages died because of TB, dypheria, poor nutrition, the Plague, and alcohol related issues (the water was so polluted, they could only drink alcoholic beverages). Foreskin infections, though, never made to the top of that list. And by the way, a lot of teen guys, guys in their 20s do shower regularly, at least by the time college comes around.
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#90 of 107 Old 12-14-2008, 03:12 AM
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And by the way, a lot of teen guys, guys in their 20s do shower regularly, at least by the time college comes around.
One can only hope.
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