How far do you take it, with your pro-circ DH? Am I over the top? Crazy? - Page 3 - Mothering Forums

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#61 of 124 Old 06-08-2009, 07:00 AM
 
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Averysmomma! I'm so sorry you're dealing with this. I posted the other day and have just edited b'c it was a pretty emotionally charged post. I was taken aback b'c you're always so strong & wise when responding to others' issues and usually have advice on how the rest of us can work something out. I know you must be torn up by this & I send you strength!

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#62 of 124 Old 06-09-2009, 08:28 AM
 
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With guys you have to be firm with them.

Remind him that a circumcised child is:
a) in pain and discomfort
b) will require a lot more care.

Tell him that reports of problems later are greatly exaggerated and that problems post-circumcision are vastly under-reported.

Also say that in Canada (the closest country to the USA ) neonatal circ rates have dropped to less than 10%:
http://www.cirp.org/library/statistics/Canada/


Finally, get him to watch this video with Doctor Dean Edell:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHVvB1oHAgg&feature=related
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#63 of 124 Old 06-09-2009, 09:25 PM
 
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Aaaaand back to your regularly scheduled program! Sorry about the little delay in getting the thread back!

 
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#64 of 124 Old 06-10-2009, 01:02 PM
 
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Curious to know if it's a boy....

Casey
Mama to DS 2/22/06 and DS 3/27/09 :
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#65 of 124 Old 06-10-2009, 01:13 PM
 
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I went to her profile and then "all posts." She posted on another topic that it's a boy!

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#66 of 124 Old 06-10-2009, 01:23 PM
 
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I went to her profile and then "all posts." She posted on another topic that it's a boy!
Let the storm begin...


Everyone get all their info ready, this lady is going to need a lot of help and support!
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#67 of 124 Old 06-10-2009, 01:49 PM
 
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My DH was set in much the same way and has much the same overall pholisophy. He was appalled that I asked about piercing my DD's ears. He said not till she asked for it. We left our cats claws intact becasue it is inhumane and actually illegal to have them declawed in some states. He is a tatoo artist and won't tatoo my sister who has been begging for a while because she is not 18 and therefor not legal age, even though my parents have said it was okay.

Basically I left it alone till we knew we had a boy coming. No use arguing about it if there was no reason, right? Then I made up rules. We didn't discuss it face to face, e-mail only, becasue it was to emotional for both of us. We would have ended up yelling and someone would get hurt feelings.

Then (and this was the big thing) I put it on him to come up with facts/ reasons/ studies to prove his point. I was on the side of nature, the default. Innocent basically. He was trying for modification, surgery. Therefor HE needed to convicne me that it was a good idea. Coercion like leaving the marrage would not be tolerated.

Every once in a while I would send him a link to interesting onfo I found, but other than that we didn't discuss it. When the time came and my wonderful HB turned into a transfer, the nurses asked. And I just looked at him. He said no circ. Had he said that we were circ'ing, I would have immediately corrected them, but putting that power in his hands (even if I already knew the answer) forced his hand. He couldn't do it and i knew it.

In a year or so our son will need surgery to correct a syndactly (fusion) of his fingers. DH tried one more febal attempt at the circ issue. He claimed that since I was so against it happening w/o anesthesia, maybe they could just do it when he had his surgery. I balked and said that no, it was not about the anesthesia thing, it was about it being HIS body. It was not our decision to make. He dropped it after that.

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#68 of 124 Old 06-10-2009, 01:57 PM
 
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I haven't read the whole thread but I'm sorry you are dealing with this! As someone who DID circ my son (though not due to my DH - it was due to my own/our combined ignorance!) I can tell you that you will never forgive yourself if you do this. But it sounds like you already know that & plan to stand firm.

Do you think that (maybe once a period of not discussing it has passed... time to cool down maybe...) he would be open to some sort of compromise - say, leave the baby intact for 1 year and THEN discuss it again? I'd be shocked if he would really want to put his baby through that after getting to know him & how perfect he is... Just an idea.

I don't know what I'd do in your shoes really. I'm lucky that it didn't take much for DH to agree with me on this one. Our next son is due in 3 weeks and will be intact. Good luck.

Amanda , mama to my two boys: N (10/06) and : A (7/09)
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#69 of 124 Old 06-12-2009, 08:33 PM
 
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Congrats on expecting a little boy, Averysmomma!

"How far I'd take it", personally, is... very far. Luckily I married a man who's now an intactivist (neither of us were really aware of the issue beforehand) and live in a country where circ is rare. But if for any reason push comes to shove in the future... yeah, I'd do whatever it took. The outcome is non-negotiable. The method of getting to the outcome could vary - medical evidence, emotional arguments, even threatening separation - but at the end of the day, my son would remain intact.

I think I startled my mother about this one. She knows I'm an intactivist, but I also believe in wifely submission (religious thing) so she asked if I'd "defy my husband" on this issue if it came down to it. I said "Absolutely, just as I would have if he'd tried to circ our daughter". I think she "got it" then.

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#70 of 124 Old 06-12-2009, 10:09 PM
 
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#71 of 124 Old 06-13-2009, 06:14 AM
 
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We are having a girl, If we were having a boy we wouldn't cut him.

This is our first, and we talked about it before we knew the sex.

All it took is for us both to watch a vid how its done.

Then we did a little research on how it is just a ritual.

Then we realized how brutal the female version is.

That pretty much sealed the deal for both of us.

I can understand how some men will say," I want my son to look like me" I totally understand. That was my first stance on the subject. But then I realized how selfish that was.

like: " I only have one arm I want my son to look like me"

hmmm.

By the way this is my second post here, looks like a great forum.
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#72 of 124 Old 06-13-2009, 06:20 AM
 
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Hey Real Life Dad, glad to have you here
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#73 of 124 Old 06-14-2009, 02:56 PM
 
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I agree. I think its an age issue. God maybe there was a time (the 50's, or 70's,?) Where if you were intact you were seen as a freak. That a little boy with a foreskin would teased and harassed in the locker room, and avoided by all the girls. Maybe some of these older Dad's saw this one day as a child, and it cemented into them as this really funny day, but horrified them to imagine their son being at the other end of those social attacks.

Maybe that happened decades ago. But not anymore. Younger fathers may remember seeing an intact guy (heck maybe a group) and it was different but no one took notice, it was never as big of a deal.


Side note: Benji- I dont know what your reasons were, but those must have been some strong reasons if you did it knowing you might view your own penis has mutilated afterwards.
Yeah...from the atmosphere in my high school, if you were to say anything about another guy's penis in the locker room, you'd be accused of being homosexual (which isn't good either...)

However, I was turned down once for being intact. And it did suck, but if it can keep me away from stupid and ignorant girls, I guess that's just another positive function.

Nah, it's not that bad. I just have to change my attitude, although it might take some time.

two amazing sons & .
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#74 of 124 Old 06-16-2009, 02:05 AM
 
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Averysmum i just stumbled upon this, sorry you are going through this. I dont think you are going to far at all, not at all. I seriously wouldnt hesitate to take my baby and run if i felt that he would be circed behind my back, and i would be entirly uninterested in being in a reslashionship where i was fearful of that happening.

I would not allow my child to be sexually abused and mutilated, that may seem over dramatic to some but that is honestly how i feel in my hearts of hearts.

Good luck, seriously do what you have to, i hope this works out for you.
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#75 of 124 Old 06-16-2009, 02:15 AM
 
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However, I was turned down once for being intact. And it did suck, but if it can keep me away from stupid and ignorant girls, I guess that's just another positive function.

Nah, it's not that bad. I just have to change my attitude, although it might take some time.
wtf? i would love to meet the girl who asks about a guys circ status before she gets intimate. i would also sort of wonder why you would turn someone down b/c they are intact... that makes no sense.

as a girl who had zero opinion on foreskins...and whose friends had zero opinion on foreskins prior to dating a guy with one.. the ones whose b/f's were intact knew this and appreciated this spiffy feature. i had no idea.. it never occurred to me to wonder... i wasn't performing a medical examination after all.... and i didn't spend a lot of time staring at it.

some people are down right strange.
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#76 of 124 Old 06-16-2009, 09:28 AM
 
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wtf? i would love to meet the girl who asks about a guys circ status before she gets intimate. i would also sort of wonder why you would turn someone down b/c they are intact... that makes no sense.

as a girl who had zero opinion on foreskins...and whose friends had zero opinion on foreskins prior to dating a guy with one.. the ones whose b/f's were intact knew this and appreciated this spiffy feature. i had no idea.. it never occurred to me to wonder... i wasn't performing a medical examination after all.... and i didn't spend a lot of time staring at it.

some people are down right strange.
Oh, she didn't ask before.

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#77 of 124 Old 06-16-2009, 03:20 PM
 
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Oh, she didn't ask before.
yikes! Sorry dude. Probably a positive thing in the long run! I've always heard foreskin makes a great shallow woman filter.

I have never been with an intact guy, just because circ. was really common when I was born so most guys in the US my age are circed. I didn't even know what an intact penis looked like until I came to MDC. I didn't intend to circ my son though, pretty much from the time I thought about it.

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#78 of 124 Old 06-17-2009, 01:19 PM
 
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I do not think you are taking it too far, can you really take protecting your child from unnecessary, painful and sexually altering surgery too far?

I would do whatever it took to protect my child. A child's body parts aren't marital bargaining chips.

I truly hope your dh comes around but if not I hope you do everything in your power to protect your son.

OUR DAUGHTERS ARE PROTECTED SHOULDN'T OUR SONS BE TOO! :
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#79 of 124 Old 06-17-2009, 03:16 PM
 
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Oh, she didn't ask before.
Ouch. I'm sorry. I can't even imagine...

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#80 of 124 Old 06-18-2009, 10:22 AM
 
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So many good things in this discussion. What is clear, is that for someone who has been circumcised, circumcision of their children is still a sort of primeval compulsion, regardless of how it occurred for the father initially.
-I saw this in my brother's case. I think it's terrible. :

My sons are both intact, : -I am not. I was totally Pissed when I found out people knew 600 years ago of the specific damage from circumcision. Damage to sex, damage to the couple's love bond, chronic bickering, 5 minute sex, -for some folks these are the desired fruits of circumcision.

My Sweetie said it should be my choice. Oh yeah? What if I am wrong? What if I am misinformed? What if I can't listen? Being male confers no special decision making privilege, or insight, actually it can detract.

I am still wounded by this. : Post 35 was superb. : It is spot on. This stuff is not in a part of the brain you can "voluntary access" -much as you'd like to, just to be done with it. :

Anyone who's informed that would do this to their child well it makes me wonder.... Wounded? So work on it Bub! Harming your children doesn't make you feel better. -Many posters have said this, its true.

I am just repeating other's ideas. Just wanted to say thank you for post 35 especially, but all of them as well. Great healing community here.

It is women -who have the power to create life, that truly can heal us. Men tend to be destroyers, while women are creators. Envy Much? I think the world would be a better place if more boys learned to knit a pair of socks, after cleaning, carding and spinning the wool by hand. Knowing firsthand the effort that goes into the smallest things, -ones we take for granted, might make them less likely to break things, go to war, etc. My children knit, as do I. (No socks yet!) Knitting teaches patience, counting, beauty,... whats not to like?

Let men stop their violence, -even if women have to hold their hand, or stare them down, all the way to the end. Medicine has aspects of this violence too, in the medicalization of birth, excessive hysterectomies and so on.

Question everything, but especially culture.... Mark Twain said, culture was all the prejudices you inherit by the age of 18. Some truth to that.
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#81 of 124 Old 06-18-2009, 11:51 AM
 
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It is women -who have the power to create life, that truly can heal us. Men tend to be destroyers, while women are creators. Envy Much? I think the world would be a better place if more boys learned to knit a pair of socks, after cleaning, carding and spinning the wool by hand. Knowing firsthand the effort that goes into the smallest things, -ones we take for granted, might make them less likely to break things, go to war, etc. My children knit, as do I. (No socks yet!) Knitting teaches patience, counting, beauty,... whats not to like?

Let men stop their violence, -even if women have to hold their hand, or stare them down, all the way to the end. Medicine has aspects of this violence too, in the medicalization of birth, excessive hysterectomies and so on.
I got to say thats an incredibly sexist thing to say. "Men tend to be destroyers"? You should take a trip to a pro female circ society. You will find that it is mothers, sisters, and grandmothers (women) who are the ones holding little girls down as they go genital mutilation. Forced circ is not problem specific to any gender, both sides do it to their own gender.

A male baby is no more prone to destroy, or be violent then a girl baby.

I think your completely missing the point when you say "It is women -who have the power to create life, that truly can heal us." Because its only partly true.

The power to create life is shared between women and men. Men fertilize the seed, and women give it a place for it be safe while it develops. What that example should be teaching you is that only when we come together can we see positive results in the world around us. And not that any one side is "the problem" (or the solution).

We must support and open each others eyes. Because violence knows no gender bounds. Its only working together can we see where we have become misguided in what we might have thought was best.
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#82 of 124 Old 06-18-2009, 01:37 PM
 
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yikes! Sorry dude. Probably a positive thing in the long run! I've always heard foreskin makes a great shallow woman filter.

I have never been with an intact guy, just because circ. was really common when I was born so most guys in the US my age are circed. I didn't even know what an intact penis looked like until I came to MDC. I didn't intend to circ my son though, pretty much from the time I thought about it.
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Ouch. I'm sorry. I can't even imagine...
I can brush it off now, don't worry. But at the time, I will admit it was pretty awful and humiliating. She ended up apologizing eventually.

two amazing sons & .
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#83 of 124 Old 06-18-2009, 05:16 PM
 
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Women are holding down their daughters to be circumcised because their male dominated culture dictated them to. It's much more complicated than whose holding them down and making the cut. The mutilation started with Patriarchy here and there.
That said I am horrified by women forcing sexual mutilation onto girls no matter the cultural push.

I'd love to know if you have had any luck with your dh, OP.

OUR DAUGHTERS ARE PROTECTED SHOULDN'T OUR SONS BE TOO! :
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#84 of 124 Old 06-18-2009, 06:00 PM
 
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Women are holding down their daughters to be circumcised because their male dominated culture dictated them to. It's much more complicated than whose holding them down and making the cut. The mutilation started with Patriarchy here and there.
That said I am horrified by women forcing sexual mutilation onto girls no matter the cultural push.

I'd love to know if you have had any luck with your dh, OP.
Cultures can manipulate men as much as they do women. The point of that example is to show that women have the ability (and are) just as violent and destructive as men can be. Just as men can be as loving and caring as women are traditionally seen.
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#85 of 124 Old 06-19-2009, 02:08 AM
 
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I got to say thats an incredibly sexist thing to say. "Men tend to be destroyers"? You should take a trip to a pro female circ society. You will find that it is mothers, sisters, and grandmothers (women) who are the ones holding little girls down as they go genital mutilation. Forced circ is not problem specific to any gender, both sides do it to their own gender.
Perspective, all good points you make here. I tend to think about these folks: Bin Laden, Bush Cheney, endless USA wars, the Taliban types. Some men go for destruction wholesale. Others let them do it. I think they have a problem! But FGM is also very very awful, and very personal of a violation. The poster who said FGM also served men, was also right.

In talking to one person about infant circumcision, -his response was, "Who says human rights are important?" He just feels entitled to do it -and recommend it to others. Sad. FGM probably has similar adherents in the older women in those cultures.

A male baby is no more prone to destroy, or be violent then a girl baby.

Yes, babies is where we start, but things do eventually differ! I have two rather large boys and take very seriously the task of raising them to be thoughtful, expressive, compassionate etc. because the balance is needed. Socializing boys is important, they can easily use size and power to their advantage. Testosterone level in individuals does have correlates to behavior, -but it certainly doesn't dictate it. [Boys are sometimes seen as "flawed girls" in schools nowadays, and that is just plain unfair to the boys.]

I think your completely missing the point when you say "It is women -who have the power to create life, that truly can heal us." Because its only partly true.

This would have been clearer, "It is women that truly can heal us." -Not that we can't heal on our own! -Yet, it can help a lot to have the support and perspective of women.

The power to create life is shared between women and men. Men fertilize the seed, and women give it a place for it be safe while it develops. What that example should be teaching you is that only when we come together can we see positive results in the world around us. And not that any one side is "the problem" (or the solution).

Totally agree. You are very wise here. But women really have the bulk of the bodily function and involvement. I have "womb envy" I admit it. -The whole thing is amazing from courting to conception to birth and growth. Men can feel a little left out.

We must support and open each others eyes. Because violence knows no gender bounds.


True, yet men commit most of the violent crimes assault, murder, rape. Yuck. War. Big yuck (usually). -I was bullied a great deal in grade school. That colors my perception of males and authority figures, most certainly. Girls also bully, via exclusion, and that is just as rough -and less well known.

Its only working together can we see where we have become misguided in what we might have thought was best.

Again, the two perspectives (and more) are often better than one. Agreed.

Thank you for the kind criticism, it is appreciated. -These are habitual ways of thinking. Lately I have been sifting through them with a fresh eye, maybe I'll change some. I certainly hope so.
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#86 of 124 Old 06-19-2009, 03:28 AM
 
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Perspective, all good points you make here. I tend to think about these folks: Bin Laden, Bush Cheney, endless USA wars, the Taliban types. Some men go for destruction wholesale. Others let them do it. I think they have a problem!
Well, yes but all those roles, from leader of the free world, to figure heads of terrorist groups are positions that traditionally excluded women. It is not that women would not act in similar ways if put in these positions, its just they have not had as many chances to. And in times where there have been women in leadership roles over countries, they still carried out wars, there still was corruption, innocent people died, and at times greed/power still won over their better nature.

The problem is when people take traditional gender roles and say that these are inherent, instead of reactions to the situations people are thrown into. If you are the gender which is traditionally responsible for the caring and nurturing of the family, of course is going to seem like the more “healing gender” versus the one traditionally in charge of leadership/ protection, who is forced to be on the front lines of dealing with cultural problems.

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I have two rather large boys and take very seriously the task of raising them to be thoughtful, expressive, compassionate etc. because the balance is needed. Socializing boys is important, they can easily use size and power to their advantage. Testosterone level in individuals does have correlates to behavior, -but it certainly doesn't dictate it.
Its true that males have more aggressive hormones then females do, that hardly trumps level headed judgement of adults. I do agree that boys need to be raised with compassion, love and socialization, but not because of their hormones. But because society spends so much time telling men to be less emotionally, and less socialized. Like girls are given dolls and they play mock situations that simulate things adults deal with. While boys are told not to cry, and are handed a ball, or an action figure, with preparation for the emotional realities of adulthood.




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This would have been clearer, "It is women that truly can heal us." -Not that we can't heal on our own! -Yet, it can help a lot to have the support and perspective of women.
Just as it can women to have the support and perspective of men. This is a two way street.

Quote:
Totally agree. You are very wise here. But women really have the bulk of the bodily function and involvement. I have "womb envy" I admit it. -The whole thing is amazing from courting to conception to birth and growth. Men can feel a little left out.
Of course, I think everyone is amazed by the developmental process that goes on within the female body, and would not mind experiencing it myself. (Although not really the birthing part, yikes!) But women do not have any majority control over the creation process. That ball starts rolling with man and woman pushing at the same time, its the developmental/incubation process that they over see. Although its not creation, its still pretty amazing stuff.

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True, yet men commit most of the violent crimes assault, murder, rape. Yuck. War. Big yuck (usually). -I was bullied a great deal in grade school. That colors my perception of males and authority figures, most certainly. Girls also bully, via exclusion, and that is just as rough -and less well known.
Its true men commit most of the violent crimes, but that does not mean most men are violent, or that we can say "men are the violent ones, lets get advise from the less violent females." It would be just as untrue to say "since most violent crimes in NYC are commited by African-Americans then African-American New Yorkers are more violent."

You would not say they should get advice from other demographics that commit less crimes, would you? No, of course not. Because just because more violent actions are caused by a certain group does not mean most people in that group are violent, or have some lesson they need to learn.

As you said, and as I said really the focus should be we all have something we can learn from each other. But I have to say your comments have been quite interesting. And as you can tell from my SN, the views of others is very important to me.

As the analogy goes, your understanding of where the sun hangs in the sky is completely relative to where you stand on the ground.

Meaning there is no one, right point of view. Only together can we see clearly.
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#87 of 124 Old 06-19-2009, 05:53 AM
 
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Perspective,

Well, yes but all those roles, from leader of the free world, to figure heads of terrorist groups are positions that traditionally excluded women. It is not that women would not act in similar ways if put in these positions, its just they have not had as many chances to. And in times where there have been women in leadership roles over countries, they still carried out wars, there still was corruption, innocent people died, and at times greed/power still won over their better nature.

Well, I am weak on historical knowledge of what you speak. I concede it can be possible, but don't know of it myself. Certainly women in tragedies (Greek Shakespeare) commit many sins too.

In theoretical moral choice scenarios, men tend to choose "the most good for someone" -even at the expense at another party, sort of an "end justifies the means." This was viewed (by men) as superior moral development to women's responses which tend to, "Can't we find a way to do good, without penalizing someone else in the process?" A second look at this, by feminists shows women are not less developed morally, they just frame it differently.

Still men kill over ideas and "the R word" I don't see women doing that nearly so much, historically speaking.

The argument also could be made (for either gender) that selection for these roles is not uniform: You have to be sleazy or ruthless to be successful as a politician. The rest of us might be much more decent folk. -You make a similar argument further down about New Yorkers.

I'm keeping this short as we are mostly on the same page, (and it's a bit off topic). You -and others- might enjoy this striking essay, with the tongue in cheek title Is There Anything Good About Men? :
http://www.psy.fsu.edu/~baumeistertice/goodaboutmen.htm

Baumeister discusses the idea that men tend to have numerous, less deep relationships, they compete with other men, and create culture in order to do so. Specific data that applies is mentioned. It's a good read.

See you tomorrow, -I have a day job I need to sleep for!
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#88 of 124 Old 06-19-2009, 08:56 AM
 
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wtf? i would love to meet the girl who asks about a guys circ status before she gets intimate. i would also sort of wonder why you would turn someone down b/c they are intact... that makes no sense.
LOL ::: I ask... you know, prospectives, but just cause I'm nosey like that. My current is my first circ'd and really, the foreskin is such a wonderfully functional and fantastic part of the human body i'm needing to learn how to work with something pretty different now. I'm all about going for the person and not their parts, just noting the difference.
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#89 of 124 Old 06-19-2009, 11:55 AM
 
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Perspective,

In theoretical moral choice scenarios, men tend to choose "the most good for someone" -even at the expense at another party, sort of an "end justifies the means." This was viewed (by men) as superior moral development to women's responses which tend to, "Can't we find a way to do good, without penalizing someone else in the process?" A second look at this, by feminists shows women are not less developed morally, they just frame it differently.
I dont see what evidence you have to show that "men tend to think this way, and women tend to think that way" beyond the influences of your own opinion. I dont think this is something you can prove. The closest anyone could get to doing so would in the end be a cherry picking project.



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Still men kill over ideas and "the R word" I don't see women doing that nearly so much, historically speaking.

The argument also could be made (for either gender) that selection for these roles is not uniform: You have to be sleazy or ruthless to be successful as a politician. The rest of us might be much more decent folk. -You make a similar argument further down about New Yorkers.
Are you trying to say what kept women from getting into real positions of power, was that they were not sleazy/ruthless enough? Men often were born into positions of power, if not that they had family legacies to fulfill. Often they had plans set up for them from birth. What do you think women could not have been clever enough to gain leadership positions? Every step of the way women were excluded from the "power ladder" and not because they wouldn't be ruthless but because traditional gender roles excluded them from getting anywhere near it.

Men did not fight over ideas, or "the R word", cultures did. Since women could not really gain power, it appeared simply that these were issues only the men were dealing with, and fighting over. But that paints a very simplistic view of history.

But getting us back to the point here. I guess the reason I focus so much on this is because people often make the mistake to blame genders for different problems in our culture. Instead culture itself, and this can be a problem if we go into circ discussions with the assumption that men are the problem, while I would say culture is the problem. This defuses the situation and I have seen many circ fights resolved by taking out the anger and blame.
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#90 of 124 Old 06-19-2009, 12:11 PM
 
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Please keep the discusion on topic for CAC. Thanks.

 
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