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#61 of 112 Old 08-24-2009, 07:59 PM
 
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Originally Posted by MissMommyNiceNice View Post
This is awful! I hope everyone took the poll at the todayshow.com. Bomb the board and let them know what people really think. Idiots!

I already voted, so it wouldn't let me go right to the page, but it's on the upper right hand side right under the pic of the baby.

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/
Here's the direct link:
http://www.newsvine.com/_question/20...et-circumcised

Currently at 36% in favor of RIC, 60% opposed.

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#62 of 112 Old 08-24-2009, 08:11 PM
 
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Did anyone ever do a study on HIV transmission amonge circumcised FEMALES? If that showed a decrease in HIV would the CDC be pushing for cicumcision of a American FEMALES? I'd love to see that outcry.
That study was done also (comparing women who had previously undergone FGM with intact women). The FGM group had lover HIV infection rates, though also different cultural/economic background. Fortunately, there is no pro-FGM lobby in the USA at this time.
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#63 of 112 Old 08-25-2009, 12:00 AM
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Here's a NY Times article about it:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/24/he...n.html?_r=1&em

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#64 of 112 Old 08-25-2009, 12:44 AM
 
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That study was done also (comparing women who had previously undergone FGM with intact women). The FGM group had lover HIV infection rates, though also different cultural/economic background. Fortunately, there is no pro-FGM lobby in the USA at this time.
I've heard this before- does anyone have a link to this info? I would LOVE to post it around...

-Angela
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#65 of 112 Old 08-25-2009, 01:09 AM
 
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I've heard this before- does anyone have a link to this info? I would LOVE to post it around...

-Angela
http://www.ias-2005.org/planner/Abstracts.aspx?AID=3138
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#66 of 112 Old 08-25-2009, 01:12 AM
 
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here is an article that pokes holes in the Africa study:

http://www.circumstitions.com/HIV-SA.html

If only we could get people to bother reading it.
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#67 of 112 Old 08-25-2009, 01:59 AM
 
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here is an article that pokes holes in the Africa study:

http://www.circumstitions.com/HIV-SA.html

If only we could get people to bother reading it.
I just posted this on Facebook. A lot of people I know are pregnant right now, including at least two with boys. Hopefully this will make a difference.

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#68 of 112 Old 08-25-2009, 03:25 AM
 
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Here's the direct link:
http://www.newsvine.com/_question/20...et-circumcised

Currently at 36% in favor of RIC, 60% opposed.
I voted.

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#69 of 112 Old 08-25-2009, 03:33 AM
 
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OK, here is the abstract book for the conference:
http://www.2009nhpc.org/doc/2009_NHPC_Abstract_Book.pdf

On page 140 is the one you have been referring to: DR09 - Introducing Male Circumcision for HIV Prevention in Non-Circumcising Communities in the U.S.

Looks like they are going to be specifically targeting African-Americans and Hispanics

Also of interest page 221
Presentation Title: Elective Male Circumcision for the Prevention of HIV

and page 13
Presentation Title: Physicians’ Knowledge of and Attitudes Toward Male Circumcision as a Means to Reduce HIV Acquisition

I think the big mistake they are making is that it makes no sense to circumcise infants as they do not have sex, but should instead just educate sexually active male adults that if they want to have repeated unprotected sex with partners of which they are not sure of their HIV status, circumcision can delay how long it takes for them to contract HIV
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#70 of 112 Old 08-25-2009, 10:35 AM
 
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I'm happily surprised by the poll percentage rates against circ! Did MDC just blow it up or what?! Or better thought: is the US really changing?
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#71 of 112 Old 08-25-2009, 11:03 AM
 
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NPR was talking about the studies in Africa this morning. Actually everyone- the hosts and guests felt that the study couldn't really be translated to the US. We have the highest rate of circumcision of industrialized countries and also the highest rate of HIV.

The host really went after the idea that these studies mean every newborn boy should be circumcized. The one guest said that parents should present the pros and cons and he said- "what, to the baby?".

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#72 of 112 Old 08-25-2009, 11:04 AM
 
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The study that I would like to see is "HIV and STD transmission in Newborn Males". THAT ONE might get some attention, no?

CDC is a UAV.
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#73 of 112 Old 08-25-2009, 11:16 AM
 
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I vomited when I heard yesterday, literaly. I am so mad and sad and pissed and every bad emotion there is!
I am going to post the video in the link here on my facebook who wants to join me, people have to see what they are doing, more than likely they are not! WHO WANTS TO JOIN ME!?

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#74 of 112 Old 08-25-2009, 11:25 AM
 
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I'm ready for a bumper sticker. Usually, I keep opions to myself (IRL lol), but I really want an anti circ sticker. Where can I get one?
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#75 of 112 Old 08-25-2009, 11:51 AM
 
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Originally Posted by chambom View Post
NPR was talking about the studies in Africa this morning. Actually everyone- the hosts and guests felt that the study couldn't really be translated to the US. We have the highest rate of circumcision of industrialized countries and also the highest rate of HIV.

The host really went after the idea that these studies mean every newborn boy should be circumcized. The one guest said that parents should present the pros and cons and he said- "what, to the baby?".
What show was that? I'd like to listen to the archive.
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#76 of 112 Old 08-25-2009, 12:08 PM
 
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It's rather obvious they don't approach this from a logical, scientific or ethical standpoint...and we have pretty clear evidence how in Europe we have really low rates of HIV with an intact culture. And here in the US, where the majority of men are already circ'd we have much higher rates.

Yes, the CDC and those making up this policy are all made up of circumcised men....I'm sure they wouldn't admit to any bias.

Mass cultural psychosis--that is what this whole phenomenon is. And, for those of us who have the ability to take a step back, to use logic and reason are pretty darn &*(^&* mad about what is going on. Now, with the tides turning the last 15 years or so, people are questioning and they medical community now making that mad dash to do something to increase the plummiting circumcision rates to ensure not only their steady source of income among other things...

It seems pretty flippin obvious that we shouldn't have a right to chop normal parts off of our children's genitals. How can people not see that?

What is with the double standard. Why? Don't my baby boys deserve protection as much as my baby girls?

(speaking as a mother of 2 boys and 2 girls all of this stuff freaks me out...what does it mean for future generations?)

Just when I thought people in this country were seeing the lunacy!

And, you know, they don't want to do a true study on circumcision death/complication rates in infants. Because if they did one they would likely find out it was like that study they did in Britain all those years ago, after which virtually circumcision stopped, because they discovered how risky it was.

Head beating against the wall...

how many baby boys/men are going to be suffering because of this?

They really need to have some non-biased pediatricians/MDs address these issues in the media.

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#77 of 112 Old 08-25-2009, 12:13 PM
 
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NPR was talking about the studies in Africa this morning. Actually everyone- the hosts and guests felt that the study couldn't really be translated to the US. We have the highest rate of circumcision of industrialized countries and also the highest rate of HIV.

The host really went after the idea that these studies mean every newborn boy should be circumcized. The one guest said that parents should present the pros and cons and he said- "what, to the baby?".
Yes...educated people GET THIS!

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#78 of 112 Old 08-25-2009, 12:31 PM
 
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If it is so effective at preventing HIV transmission why are we not recommending that the 40% of the US population of ADULT males who are uncircumcised go get the procedure? (You know the people who are actually having sex)"
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Originally Posted by zensven42
I think the big mistake they are making is that it makes no sense to circumcise infants as they do not have sex, but should instead just educate sexually active male adults that if they want to have repeated unprotected sex with partners of which they are not sure of their HIV status, circumcision can delay how long it takes for them to contract HIV
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Originally Posted by kiara7
The study that I would like to see is "HIV and STD transmission in Newborn Males". THAT ONE might get some attention, no?
ITA with these points raised by PPs. I see this as the same rationale CDC uses with the recommendation to give newborns - at only a few days old - a vaccination for hepatitis. Where, like this, the target population for the vaccination is promiscuous, illicit drug-using adults.

In both cases, the risk of CDC's "prevention" strategy (RIC) is borne by many many babies that grow up *not* to engage in the risky behavior that would make the "prevention" necessary in the first place. (And that generously assumes that circ actually would prevent some HIV transmissions, which I am not sure has actually been established). It's like punishing the many for the "sins" of the few. It isn't logical.

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#79 of 112 Old 08-25-2009, 02:23 PM
 
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This was recently on the Today show... they were saying that the AAP was planing on changing their position on circ too.
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#80 of 112 Old 08-25-2009, 04:10 PM
 
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http://www.healthnews.com/family-hea...-hiv-3469.html

You know, it's amazing that these researchers can't see their bias :...they go out to prove one thing (circ decreases HIV for women for example) and then start a study, then stop the study--not because they find more women being infected by the circumcised partners (which was the case) but because their research not only didn't support their position but refuted it...

Circumcision in men appears to increase HIV transmission from men to women. I dont' think a lot of us women here are surprised about that. Because we know that the foreskin insures that a woman's natural lubrication stays in, and also ensures comfortable and less abrasive intercourse. Circumcision, allowed the natural lubrication to wick out, and decreased sensitivity often leads to men requiring rougher intercourse in order to climax.

The overwhelming majority of women I've talked to IRL and here on MDC agree with those...and scientifically the machanics are correct. If you look at animal studies where circumcision were performed on the males you see those same sort of issues with coitus. I took an animal physiology course in college and they had 'the purpose of the foreskin' on there (of course though I'm sure most of the men in the class wanted to just not consider themselves as having 'animal physiology' though it was indeed applicable to humans.

It's just so plain obvious what the plan here is.... That is what bugs the *&(^ out of me. It defies logic, and just when I think for once the majority of the population is starting to question this routine genital alteration of boys this kind of stuff happens. Grrr....

And, of course in irony in this article the picture up there is a bunch of condoms. Which of course is the only proven way to prevent HIV transmission.

What are we telling our future generations of men here?

As a parent, logic tells me that I teach my children about safer sex practices. It is about education.

You don't chop off nerve dense tissue from their private parts because you think they might not wear condoms. You teach them to wear condoms, and you give the education to make the right decisions.

This is not sub saharan Africa either...if you look at the Australian PDF which has their stance, it is quite reasonable. The main mode of transmission is receptive anal intercourse--I believe that is the same here in the US. The heterosexual trasmission from a woman to a man is rather low as it is--and I think people forget that and start making blanket statements. I've already heard the US media here using the blanket statement "circumcision reduces the rate of HIV 60%" while in reality they have no clue what their saying and what it implies is completley different than what is accurate. That was one study in AFRICA which only studied heterosexual female to male transmission. That is not a common way for HIV to be transmitted in this country at all. So, no way in heck it would reduce HIV by 60% ...it's such a joke that the media is representing it this way because here we are, with the majority of US men circumcised and we've got the highest HIV rates in the developed world.

::

I'm trying to not get upset, but it's really difficult not to. Because when you're not biased, and you read the facts and a scientist it's pretty darn obvious this should not be applied to newborn babies in this country!

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#81 of 112 Old 08-25-2009, 04:26 PM
 
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I am so worn out. This is just ... beyond words how people can be so cruel for profit. And that is all it is. I just can not fathom why people don't understand that it is the WRONG thing to do.

I feel stuck. And tired. ANd I need to know this will get better. I need to work for this. Will it ever get better? Sorry.. a little rambly, I'm a little depressed...

Anyone have some ideas to stop this? It should be illegal. My new mission is to make this illegal. Ugh.
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#82 of 112 Old 08-25-2009, 05:49 PM
 
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That study was done also (comparing women who had previously undergone FGM with intact women). The FGM group had lover HIV infection rates, though also different cultural/economic background. Fortunately, there is no pro-FGM lobby in the USA at this time.
What does FGM stand for? Is there a link to this study? I debate this issue with some women I know, and I want to come armed.

This news about the CDC absolutely disgusts me.
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#83 of 112 Old 08-25-2009, 05:54 PM
 
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And, you know, they don't want to do a true study on circumcision death/complication rates in infants. Because if they did one they would likely find out it was like that study they did in Britain all those years ago, after which virtually circumcision stopped, because they discovered how risky it was.
Does anyone have a link to this study? I have someone I'm trying to convince who thinks the cosmetic reasons are enough. I think something like this would help.
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#84 of 112 Old 08-25-2009, 06:13 PM
 
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Originally Posted by hparsh;
What does FGM stand for? Is there a link to this study? I debate this issue with some women I know, and I want to come armed.

This news about the CDC absolutely disgusts me.
FGM is Female Genital Mutilation. I prefer to call it FGC -- Female Genital Cutting. Less of a loaded term (and easier to call it MGC and not close people's ears right away when they hear the term "mutilation").

Link is here: http://www.ias-2005.org/planner/Abstracts.aspx?AID=3138

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#85 of 112 Old 08-25-2009, 06:29 PM
 
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I am so worn out. This is just ... beyond words how people can be so cruel for profit. And that is all it is. I just can not fathom why people don't understand that it is the WRONG thing to do.

I feel stuck. And tired. ANd I need to know this will get better. I need to work for this. Will it ever get better? Sorry.. a little rambly, I'm a little depressed...

Anyone have some ideas to stop this? It should be illegal. My new mission is to make this illegal. Ugh.
you said it sister

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#86 of 112 Old 08-25-2009, 11:27 PM
 
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Does anyone have a link to this study? I have someone I'm trying to convince who thinks the cosmetic reasons are enough. I think something like this would help.
Oh, they have that 'timeline' animation basically that shows the rates based on year...hopefully someone knows what I'm talking about and has the link. It's talked about in there. It's like an animation that shows rates in US, UK and other parts of the world by year.

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#87 of 112 Old 08-26-2009, 01:08 PM
 
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I sure do hope not. I think it is just so ingrained in this culture that to do anything else is preposterous. I have been feeling like that though. On other boards I will be involved in discussion and some moms said they just did it because they can and they will not read any research or studies because they won't change their mind. Fingers in their ears singing ladeeda deedaa... I just don't get that mindset. At all. I really think that they are just trying to get my goat.

Or they were misinformed or not informed at all and they don't want to admit to themselves or anyone else of any wrongdoing. That is a big barrier to push past.

Today I have renewed hope.
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#88 of 112 Old 08-26-2009, 02:10 PM
 
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Oh, they have that 'timeline' animation basically that shows the rates based on year...hopefully someone knows what I'm talking about and has the link. It's talked about in there. It's like an animation that shows rates in US, UK and other parts of the world by year.

Do you mean this one?

http://www.icgi.org/medicalization/#Page_64

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#89 of 112 Old 08-26-2009, 04:10 PM
 
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Or they were misinformed or not informed at all and they don't want to admit to themselves or anyone else of any wrongdoing. That is a big barrier to push past.
To me, that sums up exactly why the CDC is considering this recommendation. To "prove" that American doctors and hospitals were "right" all along with the huge numbers of routine infant circumcisions. "See, all you people who were questioning our rights to take your children without your informed consent or often your consent at all? Well, you have no reason to complain because we were SAVING YOUR CHILDREN FROM AIDS!!! So you can all line up to get yourselves and your children circumcised now and STOP ASKING QUESTIONS!!"

I just can't believe anyone could consider surgery on infants as a "protection" against a sexually transmitted disease of adults. Even imagining there were no ethical considerations, the risks of the surgery are far greater than the "protection" afforded anyway (reducing risk of HIV from heterosexual vaginal intercourse from 0.03% to 0.015%.) And of course, there are HUGE ethical concerns. Who knows what will happen in these boys' lives? Some, sadly, may never survive childhood. Some may be celibate. Some may marry and be faithful to a faithful spouse. So they need to be subjected to risky, painful, amputative surgery as infants.... WHY? What would be wrong with letting young adult men decide how THEY wish to deal with avoiding HIV? They may or may not feel that circumcision would be useful to them.
The only reason I've heard for NOT letting adults choose for themselves was the pediatrician on the Today show who was featured along with Ms. Chapin from IntactAmerica:this pro-circ doctor said that it is too hard for parents to talk about sex with their children and teens. Wonderful. So instead of teaching our children about sexuality and sexually transmitted diseases and ways to reduce chances of getting one, we will just perform painful risky amputative surgery on them when they are infants. Then we won't ever have to bring up those icky subjects! Great!

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#90 of 112 Old 08-27-2009, 12:20 AM
 
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sorry if this has already been discussed, but the article says:

"But they acknowledge that a circumcision drive in the United States would be unlikely to have a drastic impact: the procedure does not seem to protect those at greatest risk here, men who have sex with men."

how is it that circ protects straight, but not gay, men? does your foreskin know whether you're having sex with a man or a woman? REALLY? if foreskins are that smart, we'd better get rid of them, or they'll take over the world! :::

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