His, Mine & now...OURS - Circumcision Dilemna - Mothering Forums
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#1 of 47 Old 06-11-2010, 08:32 PM - Thread Starter
 
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DS is 2 years old. I decided against circumcision for him because I felt it was an unnecessary procedure - Cosmetic really. The way I looked at is is my DD 4 is missing a muscle in her mouth which the Dr. said could be corrected when she gets older (not that we will) but they didn't rush her into correct it just because she "looks weird."

DSS 5 is circumcised. DH will not even entertain the idea of not circumcising baby due 11/10. I have had no opportunity to explain to him my decision with my son, although he knows my feelings. He has often made jokes about my son ie: Calling him an "anteater" etc.

Ultrasound is booked in 5 weeks and I was kind of holding off until and IF we find out it's a girl, then I really don't need to stress about this conversation because this is our last child. We both have very strong feelings on the issue and unfortunately they aren't the same.

If it comes down to "it's a boy!" how would you suggest I go about dealing with this problem...or in other words, what phrases etc might be good to use when discussing my point of view to get my point across without getting attacked?

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#2 of 47 Old 06-11-2010, 08:34 PM
 
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The circ forum would probably be a better place for answers about this. But I would just say no, hands down. Not just because I'm anti-circ, but having gone through surgeries due to my son's meatal stenosis from circ'ing him...I can't imagine having anyone else have a say in that.

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#3 of 47 Old 06-11-2010, 08:38 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I wondered about posting in the circ forum, but thought it might be a little too biased over there

I'm a little worried that I'm expecting him to listen and agree to MY way of thinking and me not even entertaining the idea of agreeing to his. Is that even fair? To me this is so black and white.

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#4 of 47 Old 06-11-2010, 08:42 PM
 
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I agree. This is kindof a no negotiation issue. That is abhorrent that he makes fun of your DS! True, you probably want to start out delicate, let him feel he's been "heard", and that you've expressed your opinion. But, when it comes down to it, you really just have to hold your ground, if it is something you feel strongly about.

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#5 of 47 Old 06-11-2010, 08:42 PM
 
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im sure this wil get moved over to the CAC forum, there you will find some greeat resources to help teach your DH where you are coming from.

a recent one that was posted that i really loved was http://www.davidwilton.com/files/knm...etherlands.pdf its a official publication from doctors and the Netherlands government i think, it was a really good read.

my DH took a bit of time and talking to, he is now on board with keeping any children intact, you will prevail, please keep strong in defense of a future child!

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#6 of 47 Old 06-11-2010, 08:43 PM
 
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I also see it as black and white, and per the mothering UA guidelines, you'll find that there definitely is bias here against circ for good reason. So the bias will be the same in this forum.

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#7 of 47 Old 06-11-2010, 08:47 PM - Thread Starter
 
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i'd move this over to the circ forum but i have no idea how.

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#8 of 47 Old 06-11-2010, 08:48 PM
 
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Moved from I'm Pregnant to The Case Against Circumcision.

Stay-at-home mom to 2 beautiful.busy.boisterous boys b. 08.17.05 & 12.29.08
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#9 of 47 Old 06-11-2010, 08:49 PM
 
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as you can see the moderators will do that for you, no problem, i hope you find all the help and strength you want.

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#10 of 47 Old 06-11-2010, 09:07 PM
 
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Originally Posted by weezix View Post
I'm a little worried that I'm expecting him to listen and agree to MY way of thinking and me not even entertaining the idea of agreeing to his. Is that even fair? To me this is so black and white.
here is how i would personally address this concern.
  • understand that yes, it is a talk with two of you, and that is a hard but important.
  • listen to his concerns, do your reserch and give factual responses to the issues
  • ask him to list his concerns, you can adress with facts all the medical issues, and changing social norms.
  • remember to understand that his feelings are real as well, those have to change on his own, but hopefully with the issues adressed he wil be ok with thinking diferently about it.
  • remember there are many reasons not to circ, some ring true to folks more than others, so maybe think of if he is someone that wants to hear medical stuff, or human rights stuff? there are many angles to take the lead with.


my first talks with my DH were badly times and full of fire, we got nowhere fast. it was before we got preggo and i always jsut dropped it rather than see him that irratated.
after i got preggo i knoew it would haveto be adresses soon.
i gathered my thoughts and started a calm talk with how sad i was that this was a issues in the past and that i would like to talk it thru with him, and gave him the option to talkign then or setting a time for later, we talked then and by the end of the talk he said that since i seemed to care more than him we would go with my choice.
im sure that over time he will learn more and deal with his own feelings, he can take all the time in the world now that our future children are safe.

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#11 of 47 Old 06-11-2010, 09:14 PM
 
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m my experience, don't expect things to be settled after one discussion. It took my DH and I a couple of months, at least, to come to a consensus. It might have taken longer, but DH could see how very strongly I felt about it.

One of my arguments was that it was far easier to do the procedure later than to UNdo the procedure. And one of the best things I did was listen objectively (which was HARD) to DH's reasons for wanting to circ. It really helped me to understand where he was coming from - he was circ'd and he really WAS told all his life that it was better. He still has a hard time equating his genitals with DS's genitals, but still seems OK with our decision. It helped that both peds we interviewed before birth were anti- or neutral-circ.

I recently saw a chart showing the worldwide prevelence of circ that showed the US as one of the very few countries that performs routine cosmetic circumsicion. I wonder if that would help sway him at all? I also found the Penn & Teller "Bullsh!t" about circ interesting, and I think it helped sway DH's opinion more than medical reports, etc. You can find it on Netflix.

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#12 of 47 Old 06-11-2010, 09:21 PM - Thread Starter
 
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DH reason's to circ are: not circ'ing is "grose" it "looks funny". He is also concerned that his son's look like him.

Silly question - do boys really sit around looking at their penis's going "hey...how come his is different?" lol

For the record ds(2) and dss(5) bath together and haven't seem to notice or care that they are different. More interesting the girls (much more curious than the boys) have also not said anything. They have asked such questions as "why do you have bumps on your nipples?" "why are you're boobs longer than mine?" and "what is inside my vagina?" hahaha i'm pretty sure the difference of penis's is no concern to all 5 children in the house

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#13 of 47 Old 06-11-2010, 09:32 PM
 
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DH tried that argument on me, and asked him if he'd ever compared his penis with his father's. He said he had, which suprised me. But really, even if they were both circ'd or both not circ'd, he chances that they would look identical seem slim to me!

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#14 of 47 Old 06-11-2010, 09:37 PM - Thread Starter
 
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haha interesting.
i'm thinking...a man is hairy "down there" a boy is not. isn't that already a difference that boys notice, might ask questions on, and then leave it at that. i think there is far too much put on "looking like daddy."

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#15 of 47 Old 06-11-2010, 09:39 PM
 
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I'm actually pretty disturbed that a grown man is making derogatory comments, or really any comments, about a child's penis. I would personally not tolerate any genital humiliation directed towards my children. As far as arguments...when I was researching before my middle child was born I found a reference that said that circumcision can cause the penis to be shortened by up to an inch when erect. I never needed to say anything beyond that to my ds's father. In reality I would never have agreed to altering my child's genitals without their informed consent and it's something that I would have stood firm on. The procedure can be done later when HE can make the choice. Who compares genitals? Seriously. Can you imagine mother's and daughters comparing external genitalia and noting the inevitable differences. Just weird and creepy.
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#16 of 47 Old 06-11-2010, 09:43 PM - Thread Starter
 
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The procedure can be done later when HE can make the choice.
The argument I always here about that is ...what man wants to go through the pain of that. My dh is pretty worked up about getting "snipped" after the birth hahaha. So really I think what they hear when we say its a choice they can have done later is...it will never happen, what grown man would want to go through that, and so, therefore better to do now.

I have put an end to the derogatory penis comments about my son. We had quite a talk about it. Why are men defined by their penis's???? Weird.

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#17 of 47 Old 06-11-2010, 09:52 PM
 
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I'm glad you put an end to that talk about your ds.

My amazement is that if a grown man, who will certainly have as much anesthesia as he wants as well as very effective pain meds after AND won't have to sit in his own urine and poo with a cut up penis, would never choose to do that then what kind of man would cause such a terrible thing to happen to a newborn whose pain will not be managed and who will have to pee on his own cut up penis.
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#18 of 47 Old 06-11-2010, 09:56 PM
 
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I think it's a really hard emotional issue for some dads. I think that just means that slowly and gently you should deal with his reservations. I think men have to not only work through the cultural assumptions that a lot of us have about the supposed superiority (visually and functionally) of the circumcised penis (all of those myths you can debunk). That's not even to mention the fact that he has to come to terms with the fact that he was never given a choice about his body, or the fact that he deprived his son of a choice about his body. I think admitting that circumcision doesn't need to be done is a HUGE emotional journey for some dads. You get to be a tour guide, and there's plenty of support for both of you. Best of luck and keep us posted.
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#19 of 47 Old 06-11-2010, 09:57 PM
 
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I'm glad you put an end to that talk about your ds.

My amazement is that if a grown man, who will certainly have as much anesthesia as he wants as well as very effective pain meds after AND won't have to sit in his own urine and poo with a cut up penis, would never choose to do that then what kind of man would cause such a terrible thing to happen to a newborn whose pain will not be managed and who will have to pee on his own cut up penis.
Exactly!!!

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#20 of 47 Old 06-11-2010, 10:08 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I think it's a really hard emotional issue for some dads. I think that just means that slowly and gently you should deal with his reservations.
This is the hard part. I totally believe this...but don't know HOW to talk to him about something like this without shouting YOU'RE WRONG hahaha. I guess that has to be my INSIDE voice and I have to try and figure out what appropriate outside voice would be

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#21 of 47 Old 06-11-2010, 10:13 PM
 
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This will help you understand why it is hard for your DP to look at this issue rationally.

http://www.udonet.com/circumcision/v...ty_of_men.html

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#22 of 47 Old 06-11-2010, 10:22 PM
 
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Hi there. Since you are in Canada,d o you think it would help coming at him from a Canadian perspective? I live in Canada(in the Niagara Region) and I know that to get a baby circumcised here, you have to pre-arrange it with a pediatrician because not all of them will do it anymore.

Also, it costs about $300 in my area because the Canadian Pediatric society has re-categorized circ as non-thereputic(cosmetic) and actually recomends against it....stating that the risks and harms outweigh any possible benefit.

Here is some info on that:
http://www.caringforkids.cps.ca/preg...rcumcision.htm

In fact, several of our provinces' medial boards are trying to get doctors to stop doing them altogether, as it is a violation of the babys basic human rights.

https://www.cpsbc.ca/files/u6/Circum...nfant-Male.pdf
http://www.intact.ca/saskmemo.html

Also, it is important to know that the majority of Canadian boys being born today are NOT being circumcised.

http://www.courtchallenge.com/refs/yr99p-e.html

And here is a link to a video of a typical circumcision done in Canada:
http://www.intact.ca/vidintro.htm

Circumcisin can always be done but never truely UNdone. Our sons deserve the choice whether or not they want to have their genitals altered just like our daughters have the choice.

And if your dh responds that he doesn't know any MAN who would want to do it......ask him if he really thinks a baby would choose it if he had the choice. The ONLY reason infants are circumcised is because they are too small to fight back against it. Not fair in my book.

Good luck to you.....I hope your DH comes around soon

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#23 of 47 Old 06-11-2010, 10:49 PM
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When I was pregnant and started researching info about it, my dh resisted the whole idea of not circ'ing. His only argument was that it would look weird. And that everybody circ'd.
It seems to me that is why most men make that decision.
My dh and I each did our own research and wrote up our reasons for our argument. In the end my dh simply had nothing to say, and decided it wasn't worth it for ds to "look like him".
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#24 of 47 Old 06-12-2010, 12:28 AM
 
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When my husband refused to consider NOT amputating part of our child's genitals I tried to reason with him and argued and cried and then realized I was not dealing with a rational part of him on this issue and told him it would be done over my dead body and meant it. And I love to repeat this quote from another MDC poster: "my son's body is not a marital bargaining chip."

You have the right and the obligation to protect your child no matter who wants to hurt him or her. Stay strong mama

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#25 of 47 Old 06-12-2010, 12:44 AM
 
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My dh was really angry about it at our first discussion, which was more of an argument really. He tried the same argument and the whole "I have a penis" routine. I flat out told him that that would not fly and we had to make an educated decision based on REAL reasons, but promised him that I would research pain relief options that might make things easier for me. I did, though I knew all along that it wasn't happening... I just wanted to support his opinion so he would do his own research. He looked long and hard for anything that would support his claims, but found nothing. I think spreading the discussion out over several short conversations, and staying away from discussing sexual side effects (mostly focusing on how the procedure is not necessary) helped. Dh actually said "you were right" after ds was born. We don't talk about it much at all... it is the new normal for us and we couldn't imagine ds any other way! I think you will have a tougher road, since your dh has a previous son who is circ'd. You might just have to weather the storm a bit, but it WILL eventually become a non-issue in short order once the baby comes (IF it is a boy, of course) Your opinion and dh's don't matter (or, to look at it another way, your opinion matters as much as dh's... so you need a tie breaker). It really is about letting the boy decide.

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#26 of 47 Old 06-12-2010, 12:49 AM
 
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and I want to add that from looking into opinions of circ'd men, it seems that they are generally happy with their bodies... so if you wait to let him decide and he decides not to get it done, he will most likely be quite happy with things so it is not an issue... and you avoided an unnecessary surgery and the pain and risks that go with it.

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#27 of 47 Old 06-12-2010, 12:57 AM
 
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Does your husband have any male friends that don't believe in circ? A friend of mine was on the fence, I gave her information, she became violently opposed to circ. Her husband is circ'd and felt that his boy should be as well. They kind of hit a stand off. By chance, my dh and her dh got to talking at a get together and all it really took was my dh (who is also circ'd) to ask, "Would you do it now if it hadn't been done to you?" This got him thinking and he didn't push it anymore. After babe was a few months old he told his wife that out of all the decisions they had made he was most glad that they had kept their son intact. My friend and her dh have a good relationship, but sometimes it takes an "outsider" to get someone to see your point. Just a thought!

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#28 of 47 Old 06-12-2010, 01:22 AM
 
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I'm in Alberta too. Unfortunately, AB is the province with the highest circ rate in Canada. But Intact is in the majority. I don't really have advice. Just know that it shouldn't be hard to find a doc who agrees with you. It would be great if you can ask your doc to back you up and then have your husband attend an appointment with you to discuss circumcision.

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#29 of 47 Old 06-12-2010, 03:45 AM
 
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also... you might want to look into your hospital's policy on circumcision. i did, and i found out that it CANNOT be done without the MOTHER's signature. once i found this out, i really relaxed about the whole thing... knowing that I held the power. i too did a whole bunch of research, printed out a stack of material for DH to read (he never did read it) and when he brought it up with the OB, and the OB gave him the whole "most people do it" reply, and the OB noted that it reduces the risk of infection and penile cancer, i was right there to add that the risk of infection is reduced from only 1 percent to only 1.1 percent (or whatever the low number is... i forgot already) and that the risk of penile cancer is 1 in 100,000 -- and even the doctor had to sorta laugh at the logic of that, i said -- so let's circumcise 100,000 babies to prevent 1 from getting penile cancer in old age... and finally i heard the doctor state that the procedure is really "cosmetic" -- and my husband said "cosmetic! that's a new one to me."

my DH also had 2 previous boys from his first marriage... circumcised i'm sure. so he had to overcome all of that. how we finally settled it was that the OB on our next visit in (this was when i was still pregnant) asked if we had resolved the whole circumcision decision, and i said, yes, it's resolved in my mind that if there's no medical reason to do a surgery, that i'm not doing the surgery! and my husband looked at the doctor and said, "and if she's resolved, then i'm resolved too." and that was that, we never spoke of it again. i have yet to hear any "you were right" comment, but DS has had no problems of course, and he of course looks perfect the way he is.

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#30 of 47 Old 06-12-2010, 04:21 AM
 
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My DH and I were at one point on the same page about circing but someone at work scared him into thinking we should circ. DH is military and a guy scared him about how HE needed a circ as an adult because of cleanliness issues while deployed. My DH didn't have enough information though to be sure it was just a cleanliness issue or if he even needed a circ at all, or if his doctor just defaulted to that like many in America seem to do rather than trying other treatment options first. I didn't get the whole story... I just got a worried husband who doesn't want his kid to feel 'the worse pain' as an adult because it is more likely for our son to want to join the military because his dad is in (I guess)

We haven't approached it again as I'm not pregnant yet, but he felt like I didn't care about his opinion when I started talking on how it still hurts newborns even if they can't remember it years later because they can still feel pain. He felt like I wasn't even considering his opinion when I said that a MAYBE need for a circ when he is an adult isn't enough of a reason for me to be okay with it when he is a newborn and DEFINITELY doesn't need it.

I plan on having the both of us do our own research on the topic for awhile and then have more discussions on it once he is armed with more than one anecdotal story and I can collect all my reasons for being against RIC and show him this isn't a matter of not caring about his opinion, it is just something I feel very strongly about and have so since BEFORE we were even married, much less thinking about kids.

Ultimately though, it really doesn't matter if his conclusions don't match mine again. If I need to, I will just not allow it. It isn't something that has a compromise option and I'm definitely not giving in to something I care strongly enough to have researched and come to conclusions on. He didn't even look it up while I was pregnant with the first child. Ultimately, I care more than he does and I'll be changing the majority of the diapers and spending the majority of the time with the baby, I get to make the decision in the end. I want him to see my side, but if it comes down to it, I'll be pulling rank on this particular issue. I compromise on many things it pains me to compromise on. This won't be one of those things.
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