A hill to die on - Page 2 - Mothering Forums
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
#31 of 43 Old 11-05-2010, 01:19 AM
 
MCatLvrMom2A&X's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: With Vin Diesel ;) YUMMMM
Posts: 14,793
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Your right it does vary from hospital to hospital so make sure you ask them what their policy is.

OP keep in mind to that circ now will mean putting him under and any time anyone goes under GA there is a risk of death no matter how small it is there for me to risk GA my child's life would have to be on the line.

 
SAHMlady.gifread.giflovin' trekkie.giffan intactivist.gifwinner.jpg to loveeyes.gifenergy.gifDD 10/00 & superhero.gifmoon.gifDS 10/04 ribbonpb.gifIf your ds is intact, keep him safe, visit the Case Against Circ forumnocirc.gifCirc, a personal choice, Your sonsyes.gifbrokenheart.gif11/98brokenheart.gif6/99ribbonbrown.gifanti-tobaccoribbonyellow.gifThyroid cancer survivor. With cat.gif& goldfish.gif & (Boxer)dog2.gif wishing 4 whale.gif&ribbonwhite.gifsigncirc1.gifselectivevax.gifdelayedvax.gif

MCatLvrMom2A&X is online now  
#32 of 43 Old 11-05-2010, 11:42 AM
A&A
 
A&A's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 16,858
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeminijad View Post
I am sure many moms cave because they have similar thoughts.

Not exactly sure where I am going with this... thoughts?


http://www.noharmm.org/feminist.htm

"Today, it is often the more passive, compliant mother who will allow her son to be circumcised, acquiescing to the demands of medical professionals, husband, family or other outside sources - probably against her better judgment. The more self-determined, confident mother is more likely to insist that her son remain intact, since she has the strength to withstand the outside pressures of a circumcision oriented society.

Therefore, as mothers the time is long overdue for us to stand up and demand - "We're not going to take this any more!"



Be the mama bear.

"Our task is not to see the future, but to enable it."
A&A is offline  
#33 of 43 Old 11-06-2010, 10:59 AM
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 753
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlyle View Post
. If I "let" my dh circ a son (if we had one), I could never look at myself or him the same way again. The marriage would be dead anyway, regardless of whether we divorced. .
I totaly agree with this - the resentment would be so strong that it would be all over anyway.
hakunangovi is online now  
#34 of 43 Old 11-07-2010, 06:42 PM
 
KaylaBeanie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: The South...for now
Posts: 612
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
It's for this reason that I'm really glad I became an intactivist before finding my spouse. I would make sure long before marriage that my DP knew that there were certain things, including home birth, circumcision and full-term breastfeeding, that I absolutely will not budge on.

Hypothetically speaking though, it is a hill I would die on. I am vehemently pro-choice in all aspects of autonomy and could never be with someone who didn't feel the same.

treehugger.gif NMY, uber-crunchy, college student, doula-in-training, health food store worker and future librarian read.gif
                                      

KaylaBeanie is offline  
#35 of 43 Old 11-07-2010, 08:31 PM
 
JessicaS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 43,864
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I did tell my spouse it was a hill I would die on.

My son is intact.

Not all those who wander are lost 
JessicaS is offline  
#36 of 43 Old 11-09-2010, 07:18 AM
 
stellamia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 309
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeminijad View Post
I don't think it is because "HE could not face the prospect of raising a son with normal human genitals." I think it is because an accepted fact in his life- something his own loving mother did, many (or all) of his friends had done on themselves and their sone is now being portrayed as not only unecessary, but a horrific human rights violation.

That is a whole lot to ask someone to accept, and a major change of thinking. The majority of people I have known well lack developed critical thinking skills, or the ability to just be objective on a deeply personal topic like this- I don't think it is an issue of bringing dark ugly things to the surface. You are asking a person to grow a great deal, and that is very tough.

It is oversimplification to say 'well, I don't want to be with someone who would circ anyway' when they are immersed in a culture that has never associated anything negative with circumcision before.


Super crunchy Mama to DS1, DS2, DD and wanting a bunch more!  We homeschool, bed share, homebirth and baby wear. We're attached, we only cloth diaper and we don't vax. There's a lot more to us than that, but it won't all fit. 

stellamia is offline  
#37 of 43 Old 11-10-2010, 07:17 AM
 
nd_deadhead's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 2,140
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)

My twin boys are 16 years old, so when (circ'ed) DH and I had this discussion, it was based strictly on gut feelings, not research. We didn't evven know the subject was controversial, and the Internet didn't exist like it does today.

 

Our thoughts went along these lines:

 

1. That's GOT to HURT! We didn't want to inflict any unnecessary pain on our precious babies.

2. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

3. Baby boys are born with a foreskin - it must be there for a reason (if even we didn't know what the reasons were at the time).

4. "Look like Daddy" wasn't important to my DH - which is lucky, since he and the boys look nothing alike. He has gray hair, brown eyes and a mustache - the boys are blue-eyed blonds, and are just now starting to grow facial hair, and are a long way from being able to grow a 'stache.

 

My sons have been adamently opposed to circumcision ever since they learned what it was, when they were 8. They are also extremely attached to their foreskins (pun intended). Their feelings about having a different penis than their Dad? "Poor Dad - he's missing the best part!"

 

Stick to your guns, Mama. If DH wants his genitals to look like his infant son's, he should shave his pubic hair and pack ice in his shorts. If he insists that your son have surgery before your son even leaves the hospital, he'd better have a darn good medical reason (and good luck finding one, since no medical organization in the world recommends infant circumcision).


If the chips are down, the buffalo is empty.

nd_deadhead is offline  
#38 of 43 Old 11-10-2010, 08:06 AM - Thread Starter
 
jeminijad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 936
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

Ack.

 

The decision is made, for us. I won. No circ. I am lucky, though, and that was the entire point of this thread...

 

People seem to be reading it as a question of "should I stay firm." That was not the issue. The issue was that it isn't Good Versus Evil, and Good must stand firm. It is really about how to reach out to a father to be and avoid it being a fight to the death. I don't see much of that here, honestly. Printed information from links, however credible, is often not successful in winning over people who have an emotional stake in an issue. A post I made earlier that seems to be completely overlooked is that I strongly feel this is an area of personal growth for at least some men, and that on any other topic we would not expect a wife to be able to solve the issue. We would suggest counseling, compromise... or divorce, plenty of 'leave hims!' to be found on forums.

 

I don't expect those who see red when they merely hear of a nephew's circ, and then proceed to cut that entire branch of the family out of their lives, to be able to empathize with the situation posed in my OP. I am hoping that those who are a bit more moderate can.

 

And since this is TCAC and I don't want anyone to take the wrong idea from this- I am anti circumcision, but also anti alienation of those that we love.

 


Mother to R- 2/09, & C- 5/11

jeminijad is offline  
#39 of 43 Old 11-10-2010, 08:11 AM
 
Galatea's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 6,993
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)

But here's the thing... sometimes we can talk and talk and talk and talk and it doesn't encourage the husband to grow personally.  It's like trying to talk an addict into doing something about his addiction... nothing will happen until he has that eye-opening experience called his personal bottom.  Sometimes, pleasant talking about circumcision allows the husband to continue to think that he has a valid point and that this is something that can be compromised on.  Then the threat of divorce seems to get through to him, that this is a big deal and not something to compromise on.

 

So in your scenario, if we talk gently and try many different ways to get through to him, and he won't budge, then what would you think a moderate reaction would be?
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeminijad View Post

Ack.

 

The decision is made, for us. I won. No circ. I am lucky, though, and that was the entire point of this thread...

 

People seem to be reading it as a question of "should I stay firm." That was not the issue. The issue was that it isn't Good Versus Evil, and Good must stand firm. It is really about how to reach out to a father to be and avoid it being a fight to the death. I don't see much of that here, honestly. Printed information from links, however credible, is often not successful in winning over people who have an emotional stake in an issue. A post I made earlier that seems to be completely overlooked is that I strongly feel this is an area of personal growth for at least some men, and that on any other topic we would not expect a wife to be able to solve the issue. We would suggest counseling, compromise... or divorce, plenty of 'leave hims!' to be found on forums.

 

I don't expect those who see red when they merely hear of a nephew's circ, and then proceed to cut that entire branch of the family out of their lives, to be able to empathize with the situation posed in my OP. I am hoping that those who are a bit more moderate can.

 

And since this is TCAC and I don't want anyone to take the wrong idea from this- I am anti circumcision, but also anti alienation of those that we love.

 




DS1 2004 ~ DS2 2005 ~ DD1 2008 ~ DS3 2010 ~ DD2 due Dec. 2014
Galatea is online now  
#40 of 43 Old 11-10-2010, 07:43 PM
 
Quirky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Princeton, NJ
Posts: 12,113
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

I am very glad that you won! Truly, it's your son who won, not you. You just maintained the status quo.

 

I do, however, think it's more than a bit unfair that you title your thread "A hill to die on", ask the question about whether marriages have broken up over this, and then reject the honest answers you've gotten that, yes, if it came to it -- *which it has not for every poster on this thread* -- that this is a hill other posters would choose to die on and stand firm about keeping their sons intact, whether or not it meant the end of the marriage. You got the answer you were apparently looking for.

 

You didn't originally pose the question of "Short of threatening my husband with divorce, assuming he's adamantly pro-circ, how can I convince him that our baby should remain intact?"

 

Believe me, many people who post here have had discussions ranging from easy to extremely difficult with their significant others, and there are plenty of threads going back years about various tactics. You're absolutely right that this can be an area of tremendous emotional pain and cognitive dissonance for many men, and that there are various ways to try to approach that situation -- but that's not the question you asked in your OP, which was geared to the nuclear option of "what happens when no convincing works?" So I do think it's a bit of a straw man to set up a question and then apparently assume that all of us are of the "let's cut everyone who circs out of our lives NOW!!!!" school of thought. That's not what you asked, and it's an unfair generalization especially given your OP.

 

And FWIW, on other forums I'm on, I've seen it happen time and time again that mothers agree to circ because their husbands are so adamant -- and then they live with crushing grief and guilt. I am anti-alienation over this issue, but that most often cuts the way of hurting moms (and obviously their babies). The majority of the time, I would say, it is moms who are in part alienated from their husbands and their babies because they allow their husbands' entirely irrational feelings to override the moms' protective instincts, and some part of them is forever damaged as a result. That is by far the more common scenario in our culture than husbands getting alienated because their wives insisted on intactness.

 


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeminijad View Post

Ack.

 

The decision is made, for us. I won. No circ. I am lucky, though, and that was the entire point of this thread...

 

People seem to be reading it as a question of "should I stay firm." That was not the issue. The issue was that it isn't Good Versus Evil, and Good must stand firm. It is really about how to reach out to a father to be and avoid it being a fight to the death. I don't see much of that here, honestly. Printed information from links, however credible, is often not successful in winning over people who have an emotional stake in an issue. A post I made earlier that seems to be completely overlooked is that I strongly feel this is an area of personal growth for at least some men, and that on any other topic we would not expect a wife to be able to solve the issue. We would suggest counseling, compromise... or divorce, plenty of 'leave hims!' to be found on forums.

 

I don't expect those who see red when they merely hear of a nephew's circ, and then proceed to cut that entire branch of the family out of their lives, to be able to empathize with the situation posed in my OP. I am hoping that those who are a bit more moderate can.

 

And since this is TCAC and I don't want anyone to take the wrong idea from this- I am anti circumcision, but also anti alienation of those that we love.

 


Come visit the NEW QuirkyBaby website -- earn QB Bucks rewards points for purchases, reviews, referrals, and more! Free US shipping on great brands of baby slings and carriers and FREE BabyLegs or babywearing mirror on orders of $100+. Take the QB Quiz for personalized advice!

Quirky is offline  
#41 of 43 Old 11-10-2010, 10:44 PM
 
momo7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: hither, thither, and yon
Posts: 1,116
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

I have 5 boys of my own...when the first three boys were born, I was very much bullied into letting "them" ( meaning Dr.'s , my DH and my MIL) have it done.  I had no back bone and basically had no resources to lay down an argument.  When the fourth boy was coming, I really tried to educate myself and I read a lot and decided not to let anyone bully me into another decision I knew in my heart was wrong.  I told DH that I would take my baby and leave and stay away until the baby was too old to circ. (at the time they only did at up to a certain time after birth).  I was using a midwife by then, I was going to a birth center, and my MIL lived no where around me.....DH "gave in" and after he got the same information I did, he totally changed his view about it.  It doesn't come up now and he totally is on board with leaving the boys intact.  

 

But I will tell you, that if he had not changed his mind, if he still felt the same way, if he was still as adamant as he was before...there would be HUGE issues in our marriage.  That would be a fight that I would not back down on.  It's amazing how strong you become when you really try to educate yourself.   It is very definitely a hill that I would die fighting on.


 

 

Crazy mom of 9. grouphug.gif  A wife to one.  flowersforyou.gif

 

 

-Life is a long lesson in humility.-

 

James M. Barrie

momo7 is offline  
#42 of 43 Old 11-11-2010, 08:00 AM
 
erin23kate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Rhode Island
Posts: 211
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

I made the circumcision decision clear to my husband before we got married.  There were a bunch of things we both set as "in stone" before we had children - for me, circumcision, going to church, gentle discipline.  For him, private school, physical activity, and naming our first boy David.  smile.gif 

 

I agree with PP, I don't think any marriage would end over just circumcision.  It would be a general inability to respect each others' opinions and choices. 

erin23kate is offline  
#43 of 43 Old 12-27-2010, 07:30 AM
 
homebirthing's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 2,732
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

I have four girls and one boy. All of my children have intact genitals.

 

I understand what you are asking as far as trying not to alienate people when talking about circumcision. As someone who talks with families (sometimes I am the first person to ever bring it up with them) about circumcision, I have to be VERY cautious about how I go about it. Very often I am talking with dads and partners about what it actually is, and you have to be so careful to make sure that when you talk about the facts, you aren't at the same time, saying that they are "less".

 

I have a great website that people often see before meeting me, and that helps too. It has a great circumcision page, and I just might have to ask to add the 50 reasons to it!!

 

As far as my husband...I wouldn't choose to be with someone who wanted to cut any of my childrens genitals to make them look more attractive. Ten years ago, before I knew anything about circumcision (much less that there was something called a foreskin) I said to my husband...I think that they have to cut the penis somehow...and we both say no.


wife - mother - midwife

CIRCUMCISION

The more you know, the worse it gets.

homebirthing is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Drag and Drop File Upload
Drag files here to attach!
Upload Progress: 0
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Mothering Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off