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#31 of 48 Old 12-21-2010, 10:26 AM
 
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I've had lidocaine injections - they hurt like crazy.

 

My son had 5 stitches in his hand when he was 12 or 13. He got 2 shots of lidocaine before the stitches (with adequate time for the hand to feel numb). After 3 stitches, he could feel again, and the doctor reached for the lidocaine needle. My son stopped her - he said he'd rather feel the stitches than get another injection.

 

The circumcision itself might hurt a lot less with a DPNB, but the lodicaine injection surely must hurt.


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#32 of 48 Old 12-21-2010, 12:57 PM
 
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Originally Posted by nd_deadhead View Post

I've had lidocaine injections - they hurt like crazy.

 

My son had 5 stitches in his hand when he was 12 or 13. He got 2 shots of lidocaine before the stitches (with adequate time for the hand to feel numb). After 3 stitches, he could feel again, and the doctor reached for the lidocaine needle. My son stopped her - he said he'd rather feel the stitches than get another injection.

 

The circumcision itself might hurt a lot less with a DPNB, but the lodicaine injection surely must hurt.


when I was 9 a dog ripped off my bottom lip...seriously and I got 96 stitches. I had a TON of lidocaine shots and mid-way i felt everything and I said the same thing just keep stitching b/c the shot hurt so much worse.


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#33 of 48 Old 12-21-2010, 01:02 PM
 
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My older son got a nerve block to his finger when he was 2 years old, because it was fractured and needed the nail to be put back in place with stitches. He went crazy over the injection and was a screaming, sweaty mess. gloomy.gif

 

The only answer is just don't have the circumcision done. So simple!


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#34 of 48 Old 12-21-2010, 01:24 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Lauren82 View Post

 Even with injections, can you imagine how painful it would be to have them in your genital area and then still feel part of your flesh being ripped, crushed and cut off? 


I could feel ever stitch I received after delivering my son, even though I received numbing injections. When I told the doctor I could feel it, she said, "You ARE frozen, but it's a sensitive area so you are going to feel it. There's nothing more we can do for you. You'll just have to deal with the pain." Then they gave me ibuprofen, tylenol-3 and laughing gas to distract me as I screamed with each stitch. 


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#35 of 48 Old 12-21-2010, 07:37 PM
 
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Originally Posted by NSmomtobe View Post



Quote:
Originally Posted by Lauren82 View Post

 Even with injections, can you imagine how painful it would be to have them in your genital area and then still feel part of your flesh being ripped, crushed and cut off? 


I could feel ever stitch I received after delivering my son, even though I received numbing injections. When I told the doctor I could feel it, she said, "You ARE frozen, but it's a sensitive area so you are going to feel it. There's nothing more we can do for you. You'll just have to deal with the pain." Then they gave me ibuprofen, tylenol-3 and laughing gas to distract me as I screamed with each stitch. 


I'm so sorry you had to go through that. :(


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#36 of 48 Old 12-21-2010, 08:56 PM
 
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Yes, it is still painful.  And yes, you do see that arguement on other message boards and there is some kernel of truth to it. 

 

It is in fact now standard of care to use some kind of pain control for circumcision, and I would guess that at the current date a majority of newborn circs are done with some kind of pain control.  I believe that even ten years ago the majority were done with no pain control at all.  So this much is true.  The other thing that you see on the message boards; that they were there for their son's circ and he really wasn't in pain is probably true in many cases as well.  I would guess that doctors who are comfortable having parents in the room for a circ are much more likely than most doctors to actually use pain relief effectively.

 

However, I think that in the majority of newborn circs the baby is still in extreme pain.  Firstly, even if a majority of docs now use some pain control, there is a very substantial minority who still use nothing at all.  Secondly, of the docs who do use something, I believe that the majority either do not use an effective form (they may use a sucrose paci and call it pain control, or use EMLA cream alone which has almost no effect on the pain), or else, as has been pointed out on other posts, they use Lidocaine injections but don't place them properly or don't wait for them to take effect or both.  The parents who post that they were there and the baby didn't seem to be in pain are a self selected minority who used the doctors who are most likely to use pain relief effectively.  Their experiences may be valid for themselves and their babies, but they are not representative of what circ is like in the majority of cases.

 

My only personal experience in this area is from hanging around my own OB's office during my high risk twin pregnancy.  He does them in his office rather than in the newborn nursery and apparently does use an injection of lidocaine (I heard a nurse say that to a weeping mother as she was relinquishing her son).  I was there for one circ where I watched a baby get taken away and was wailing and clearly miserable when he was brought back.  On another occasion I was waiting in an exam room and could hear as a baby was brought back to be circed.  The soundproofing was heavy and the sound was very muffled and distant, but that baby was clearly screaming and in intense pain.  So I would say that in the case of my own OB, he uses anesthetic but does not use it effectively, and the babies that he circs are in extreme pain during and after the surgery.  My guess is that this is pretty much the norm for circs done in this country today. 

 

So yeah, the vids of circs being done with NO anesthetic whatsoever are outdated in that they are probably in the minority now, but it is still the case that most babies being circed are still experiencing something akin to torture.

 

I am hoping to go to nursing school soon and I expect I will witness circs in person then.  At that point I guess that I will get a better idea of what they are really like. 

 

One of the nurses in my babies' NICU, when she found out I wasn't circing, told me that they were "barbaric" and "horrible" and that it was the only thing she ever saw in nursing that made her pass out.


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#37 of 48 Old 12-22-2010, 06:43 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crunchy Frog View Post

Yes, it is still painful.  And yes, you do see that arguement on other message boards and there is some kernel of truth to it. 

 

It is in fact now standard of care to use some kind of pain control for circumcision, and I would guess that at the current date a majority of newborn circs are done with some kind of pain control. 

 

 

From the 1998 Pediatrics study (questionnaire, so take it for what you will) linked above:

 

 

Quote:
 A total of 67% of the doctors in the West are using anesthetics, which is significantly more than their counterparts in the other regions of the country (45% in the Midwest, 37% in the South, and 28% in the Northeast; P < .0001)

 

I wonder what the percentages are today.

 

Also, the study says that between 75-90% of circumcisers who use pain relief use a DPNB, depending on where they live.

 

The reasons cited in the survey by circumcisers who don't use pain relief make me ill. 

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#38 of 48 Old 12-22-2010, 07:13 AM
 
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When my dd was born in 2000, we were looking for a ped who would circ if (she was a boy). I remember asking her ped if she used pain relief. She said, "Of course!" and implied that pain relief was the norm, there was nothing to worry about. I didn't ask what kind, or how they do it, since obviously we didn't get that far. But I still believe her, at least in intent. She also was a very young doctor, so she wasn't conditioned from years of training and experience with not using anesthesia as the norm. She may have learned and witnessed appropriate use of anesthesia even from medical school.

I still don't know what the reality is vs the selling point to parents, but it wouldn't surprise me if newer doctors are better trained in this now and those that don't use anesthesia are more "old school". If it isn't entirely true now, I think things are gradually moving in that direction.

 

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#39 of 48 Old 12-22-2010, 08:45 AM
 
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when I witnessed those circs at the Brigham and womans they gave the babies sugar, seriously, and this was 2007!


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#40 of 48 Old 01-05-2011, 09:14 PM
 
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I am glad that my son did not experience such a trauma, but you know, this alone is not really satisfying. He is just one of thousands of babies born every day in the US. Knowing that poor little baby boys are being tortured in this way day in and day out makes my heart ache. I don't care that they are not my sons, or that I will never meet most of them. The sad fact that this torture is still legal and commonplace is simply maddening and inexcusable. I just wish people would come to their senses and just.stop.cutting.babies. How can anyone in their right mind think it is not painful? Good lord.

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#41 of 48 Old 01-07-2011, 01:02 AM
 
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I am a nursing student. I'm also the mother of a five year old intact boy. WITH a GIANT fight from his father. I wonder if I'm no longer kept partially because I refused circ for my kid. lol

I had my OB rotation this last semester. I took my instructor aside on our orientation/tour day and said "Dr.P, will I have to participate in a circumcision? I'm very nervous about this. I'm very opposed medically and personally." And, no, I didn't have to. She assured me right there. It never actually came up and none of my classmates had to either. But, had it come up, I was comfortable in referring to that earlier conversation. I go to a SMALL school in a SMALL area. The burbs of the burbs if you will. My "crunchy" views first came up in CNA class, we all have to have it to enter our nursing program. The instructor made some BAD points about circ. I gently corrected. Classmates asked questions. I answered. We moved on. It was all very PC. Then we went drinking after our final and I made my best nursing school friend. HE is now also friends with my new husband. He told me, when I asked him about his opinion on circ when other classmates brought it up "Are you kidding me!? We're Mexican! We don't do that!"

 

My point, the world is turning, thank GOD, and it's easier NOW even than it was five years ago when my son was born to say NO and have it accepted. Nursing schools are still not perfect in their education, but they are working toward being more factual in the info they give to their students.

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#42 of 48 Old 01-07-2011, 09:04 AM
 
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Even if there were a way to make the circumcision surgery itself painless (and I doubt there is), that doesn't cover the post-op period.

 

I had a teeny-tiny "skidmark" after labor, not even a tear, and peeing brought tears to my eyes for almost 2 weeks.  I can't imagine the pain for a baby, peeing in his diaper and into an open wound.  Poor babies can't even have tylenol.

 

An adult circumcision would be done under serious anesthesia (potentially even general anesthesia, if requested) and the man would be given several days' supply of vicodin or other opiates for the post-op pain. Plus, they know what is happening to them and can rationalize it and understand, can pee into a cup of water to dilute, can spend time without their newly exposed glans rubbing against everything.  All the baby knows is that it hurts to pee, and hurts every time they move.

 

I will never forget the sound of babies being cut after I delivered David.  It was the sound of torture, plain and simple.  I cannot respect that choice.

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#43 of 48 Old 01-08-2011, 03:33 AM
 
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Even if there were a way to make the circumcision surgery itself painless (and I doubt there is), that doesn't cover the post-op period.

 

I had a teeny-tiny "skidmark" after labor, not even a tear, and peeing brought tears to my eyes for almost 2 weeks.  I can't imagine the pain for a baby, peeing in his diaper and into an open wound.  Poor babies can't even have tylenol.

 

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#44 of 48 Old 01-08-2011, 05:30 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erin23kate View Post

Even if there were a way to make the circumcision surgery itself painless (and I doubt there is), that doesn't cover the post-op period.

 

I had a teeny-tiny "skidmark" after labor, not even a tear, and peeing brought tears to my eyes for almost 2 weeks.  I can't imagine the pain for a baby, peeing in his diaper and into an open wound.  Poor babies can't even have tylenol.

 

An adult circumcision would be done under serious anesthesia (potentially even general anesthesia, if requested) and the man would be given several days' supply of vicodin or other opiates for the post-op pain. Plus, they know what is happening to them and can rationalize it and understand, can pee into a cup of water to dilute, can spend time without their newly exposed glans rubbing against everything.  All the baby knows is that it hurts to pee, and hurts every time they move.

 

I will never forget the sound of babies being cut after I delivered David.  It was the sound of torture, plain and simple.  I cannot respect that choice.



 

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#45 of 48 Old 01-08-2011, 09:36 PM
 
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Originally Posted by major_mama11 View Post

Here is the thing that boggles my mind, at my place of work (90%+ circ rate): even when presented with more info, parents, especially dads, here seem dead set on circ. Maybe the only answer would be for docs to just refuse to perform them.

 

I have been present many times when one of our (younger) pediatricians at work talks to the parents and obtains consent for the circumcision she is about to do. She *always* explains that there is no medical reason at all for circumcision, and that it is purely a cosmetic procedure. I have even seen her reiterate the cosmetic procedure aspect to a dad who was present as his infant was being strapped to the board. But I have never seen a dad change his mind about consenting to the procedure. (I've seen plenty of moms cringe, but then they still tend to defer to the dad's wishes).



Because it nearly always comes back to the dad.  It's the psychology of them repeating what was done to them.  And it confuses and frustrates me that there are so many moms who are unable to stand up to this.  I guess there's some psychological stuff wrapped up in that too. 

 

Male doctors are victims themselves.  Female doctors are trying to justify what they have already done to their sons or to others' sons. 


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#46 of 48 Old 01-09-2011, 01:47 PM
 
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MoonJelly,

I think you are exactly right.  The burden lies with the medical community to stop this abuse of a baby's right to bodily integrity.  There is a financial motivation to continue the procedure and an after market sale of foreskins for bio tech and cosmetic uses. 

 

It's a snake chasing it's tail situation, the doctors say they are performing it because the parents ask and the parents say the medical community is soliciting it - and round and round it goes.

 

I have little faith in the medical community to stop.  I don't think they want to really analyze the medical ethics of it.  I think too few legal actions have come to make a real impact with doctors.

 

My faith in ending this lies in two areas:  elimination of Medicaid coverage and education of individual parents.

It is my understanding that the private insurance industry follows the government sector in terms of coverages.  As we see more and more stated ceasing medicaid coverage, I think we'll see fewer and fewer private insurance companies paying.  If doctors can't get paid for it, they will stop asking to do it, I think

As individual parents get educated, they will refuse the solicitation from the medical community.


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#47 of 48 Old 01-09-2011, 07:21 PM
 
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I sat in on an infant care class for the hospital up the road from my house. The nurse said that while circ was very painful, the docs use EMLA cream so it's ok. That's ALL they use, EMLA cream! She also mistakenly quoted the circ rate as being at 90% (it's 70% state-wide, I did speak up and correct her and gave the national rate as well) and gave NO functions of the foreskin.


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#48 of 48 Old 01-09-2011, 08:50 PM
 
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Then the lidocaine wears off and the baby is peeing and pooing on an open wound.  At my hospital, they don't even give the babes Tylenol afterwards. 

 

My question for the other RNs --  Did/do they treat the post surgical pain from circ at your hospital?

 

I simply don't understand why we don't give babes anything for pain afterwards.


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