DH is uncut, he favors circ on DS at birth, I'm still undecided... - Mothering Forums
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#1 of 29 Old 01-04-2011, 05:31 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I don't know why DH favors the choice to circumcise when DS is born, and I am still on the fence.  I don't care, either way, there will be different care for both either way.

 

I've brought it up a few times during the pregnancy, and I wonder if there is a different way to bring it up to figure out a more definitive reason for both of us on whether to leave DS intact like his father.  I don't see the harm in it.  And while Tri-Care (military insurance) will cover the cost of it - why take the extra expense on the government for something that is purely cosmetic?  (And don't get me wrong, I understand there are circles that do it for religious purposes, but I still see it as cosmetic.)


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#2 of 29 Old 01-04-2011, 06:26 AM
 
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Why does your DH want to circumcise your son? Sharing your reasons with us would help us inform your decision.


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#3 of 29 Old 01-04-2011, 06:54 AM
 
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I would guess it is b/c he grew up during a time when most boys were circumcised and the culture (ignorantly) favored circumcised men.  The issue is in his head and though you can't force it out, it is HIS job to deal with his issues rather than force his issues onto his son permanently.  If he thinks circumcision is good, then challenge him to circumcise himself.  If he won't, then that speaks volumes.

 

Tell him that today, less than half of baby boys are circumcised, and that the younger generations know all about circumcision and intactness and prefer intact.  Tell him that his son will not be mocked in the locker room if he is in the majority.  Tell him that you will teach your son to say, "Why are you looking at my junk anyway?" if he is challenged (which he won't be.)  Tell him that all the best sensations he has from his penis come from the foreskin.  And then tell him that though you are willing to discuss his issues with him, your son will not be circumcised as it is not dh's choice to make.

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#4 of 29 Old 01-04-2011, 06:58 AM
 
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As for care, it is SUPER-EASY to care for an intact baby.  You absolutely do not pull his foreskin back ever.  It would cause him intense pain.  You just wipe the outside like a finger and that is that.  Once his foreskin retracts on his own (3 years to puberty is normal), you just tell him to swish it in the water when he bathes.  That is it.

 

Caring for a circumcised baby boy is very difficult.  You will have an open wound on his whole penis and he will be in diapers with poop and pee on it.  This is very painful.  You will have to apply ointment and gauze at every change.  The remnant foreskin will try to heal itself by reattaching to the penis.  You should let it do this, unless it is reattaching in a certain spot, and then this will be a serious problem likely requiring more surgery.  Some doctors tell you to rip back the "adhesions" where it is trying to heal itself.  Can you imagine having a healing wound ripped open several times a day????


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#5 of 29 Old 01-04-2011, 06:59 AM
 
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I second what Galatea said - If he thinks that circ is better, why doesn't he go get cut himself?

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#6 of 29 Old 01-04-2011, 07:19 AM
 
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ITA... there is no special care with an intact baby, aside from knowing that there is no special care. Wipe it like a finger! I'm more worried about how to clean this baby girl. Circing will 100% cause your ds to loose function and sensitivity. Circing will 100% cause your baby pain when they are fresh from the womb. Why do this for a cosmetic procedure?


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#7 of 29 Old 01-04-2011, 07:25 AM
 
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Originally Posted by texmati View Post

ITA... there is no special care with an intact baby, aside from knowing that there is no special care. Wipe it like a finger! I'm more worried about how to clean this baby girl. Circing will 100% cause your ds to loose function and sensitivity. Circing will 100% cause your baby pain when they are fresh from the womb. Why do this for a cosmetic procedure?



Wiping my baby girl freaked me out for months.  Her genitals were so tiny, and poop did get in the folds, and even using a thin cloth on my pinky finger seemed too big.  Girls are so much harder!


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#8 of 29 Old 01-04-2011, 08:08 AM
 
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I second what Galatea said - If he thinks that circ is better, why doesn't he go get cut himself?



Yep, the day he goes and gets circ'd is the day I would even listen to his argument for circumcising my boy.  Still wouldn't happen though.

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#9 of 29 Old 01-04-2011, 08:43 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I want it to be a mutual decision, but I will try to talk him into not doing it.  His daddy didn't do it.  And my nephew had a shoddy job done himself on circumcision, so still has some foreskin that wasn't properly cut away.  He can go in for more surgery, but his mother is opting not to - if they didn't do it right the first time, why would they a second time.

 

Thanks for the input, ladies.  I'm also going to check into some books on it, to be more informed on top of it.


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#10 of 29 Old 01-04-2011, 09:42 AM
 
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DrMomma.org and their facebook group peaceful parents has tons of info and a book section on their website.  You might also want to google the Whole Network, depending on what state you live in they probably have a chapter group in your state.  Saving Penises offer awesome information packs for I think only 13 dollars, shipped.  There is a wealth of information out there.


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#11 of 29 Old 01-04-2011, 10:31 AM
 
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My brother was intact and circ'd his son.  I honestly think that it was he equated foreskin with poverty.  My mother always told him that she just couldn't afford to get him done, so he was left intact.  He never wanted to play sports due to his fear of being teased.  He also has mentioned "issues" that probably have to do with my mother forcing his foreskin back as an infant.  She was shocked that I didn't have to do that with mine, so I guess she did it to him.  I have no idea how you'd get that foreskin back, but apparently it was done.   I remember zipping his foreskin up in some pj's when he was 2...I hope I didn't cause his "issues."

 

So, remind your husband that it's not a sign of poverty (it's 50/50 now) and the care of the intact penis is much gentler now.


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#12 of 29 Old 01-04-2011, 10:47 AM
 
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You don't have to make the decision now or even when the baby is born. One of my sons was circumcised but because he was premature and too little for it at birth we had it done later when he was a little over a year old. It was done under general anesthesia with pain medication after. We lived at ellsworth then and went to an off base urologist, tricare paid 100%. There is only one urologist in rapid city, it took a couple months to get an appointment but he did a good job as far as I can tell although he did it 'high', I didn't even think to ask for it to be done 'low' as dh's is.

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#13 of 29 Old 01-04-2011, 10:57 AM
 
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My husband is not and we chose not to circumcise our son. It seems to cause hubby no additional work (and he's never had an issue in his entire life with a foreskin).

 

I personally just could not do that to my baby son. Just the thought of my tiny baby going through that... I just couldn't do it..It is always done by the resident of your obstetrician, it's never done with any sort of anesthesia. I will say this, I had a daughter first, in the hospital, and she was preterm, so she had to be under the bilirubin lights in an isolette in the nursery. So when I'd go nurse her, every hour and a half, they put me in the circumcision room - a soundproof room with the circumstraints that they put the baby boys in, and just looking at that thing, I thought, thank goodness I have a girl! When I was pregnant with my son, I decide early on to not circ. I also will agree it's harder to care for and clean a girl than a boy ;)

 

Also just an observation, from mamas who did not circ, most of my friends who did offered up these "pee pee teepees" to me, and I've never used one - he's only done it twice, as a newborn, and not since. Is this mainly because an uncirc boy would feel the cold more when his diaper's off? I use cloth diapers and disposables so it doesn't seem to be a diaper difference.

 

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#14 of 29 Old 01-04-2011, 11:13 AM
 
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Quote:

Originally Posted by elus0814 View Post




You don't have to make the decision now or even when the baby is born. One of my sons was circumcised but because he was premature and too little for it at birth we had it done later when he was a little over a year old. It was done under general anesthesia with pain medication after. We lived at ellsworth then and went to an off base urologist, tricare paid 100%. There is only one urologist in rapid city, it took a couple months to get an appointment but he did a good job as far as I can tell although he did it 'high', I didn't even think to ask for it to be done 'low' as dh's is.







And therein lies one of the biggest problems with infant circumcision. Baby penises are tiny, and foreskin isn't "extra" skin. It's all there for a reason. The urologist had no way of knowing how much foreskin will actually be needed to accomodate your particular son's ADULT erection. So while it may all look like he "did a good job", only your son will know once he's grown whether or not it's a "good job". "High" circumcisions can result in painful adult erections, tearing skin, painful scar lines and crooked penises where the skin pulls on the side where more was taken off.



 



The answer then really should not be "wait till your child is older" but "wait till your child is an ADULT, so he can make the decision for himself." After all, he is the only one who has to live with the results, for the rest of his life.



 





 


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Also just an observation, from mamas who did not circ, most of my friends who did offered up these "pee pee teepees" to me, and I've never used one - he's only done it twice, as a newborn, and not since. Is this mainly because an uncirc boy would feel the cold more when his diaper's off? I use cloth diapers and disposables so it doesn't seem to be a diaper difference.

 

Ann



My son rarely peed when I changed him, but he did it.  As far as I know peeing when diapers are off is more an issue of timing - do they need to pee or not?  If they do, they will since they don't necessarily know not to pee on us lol.

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#16 of 29 Old 01-04-2011, 11:41 AM
 
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Do your research. Don't just do it because you don't see the difference or think its just cosmetic. Research.. Is it just cosmetic? What is the difference? 

When I started researching I really just thought it was some extra skin until I researched its function. My main question, what does foreskin do?-  http://www.drmomma.org/2009/09/functions-of-foreskin-purposes-of.html

 

I also found a very informative article that was published in Mothering magazine. http://www.luckystiff.org/circumcision/information/The_Case_Against_Circumcision-6.pdf

 

 A study done in 2007 concluded that- "Circumcision removes the most sensitive parts of the penis and decreases the fine-touch pressure sensitivity of glans penis. The most sensitive regions in the uncircumcised penis are those parts ablated by circumcision. When compared to the most sensitive area of the circumcised penis, several locations on the uncircumcised penis (the rim of the preputial orifice, dorsal and ventral, the frenulum near the ridged band, and the frenulum at the muco-cutaneous junction) that are missing from the circumcised penis were significantly more sensitive."- http://www.nocirc.org/touch-test/bju_6685.pdf

 

  

A great article for moms- http://tlctugger.com/Archives/EmpoweredWoman.htm

 

Very informative articles- http://www.thewholenetwork.org/the-active-intactivist.html

 

http://9davids.blogspot.com/2010/11/50-reasons-to-leave-it-alone.html

 

Be sure to make a fully informed decision- http://www.drmomma.org/2010/01/are-you-fully-informed.html

The article links at the bottom of the article are great!

 

The most shocking information I found was the function, and how it effects sexual function. The history of it being done in the U.S was also shocking.

 

Famous with foreskins, Hugh Hefner is on the list! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2ypLFNP-8M

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#17 of 29 Old 01-04-2011, 09:41 PM
 
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http://www.noharmm.org/separated.htm 

 

I think this is the article you both need to read. It was published in Men's Health Magazine.

 

http://mensightmagazine.com/Articles/Northrup/lovecirc.htm 

 

This one is by Dr. Christine Northrup and is also important into you need to understand.

 

 

 

In the past, if a (American) boy was intact and not provided any information- he might have grown up feeling stigmatized even if he was not purposely targeted.  He may have "picked up" enough attitude about our cultural bias to feel that his natural body was some sort of curse or social detriment.  I get that... but the thing is- just a TINY bit of information can go so far toward disarming all the myths and prejudices and giving a man a sense of self esteem and gratitude for his parents having protected him.  It may be too late for him to get those lessons proactivley- but there is nothing that would get in the way from giving your son those great lessons and having the ammunition to counter the negatives... circumcising a child doesn't fix those problems- it only adds to a horrible sexist status quo that has no rightful place in our lifetime.. and certainly not carrying on 80 years into the future on the body of the next generation.  The natural human body has a design that has a reason, this may not be fully understood by even men who have the anatomy- I know that circumcision has had a negative impact on my own ability to enjoy sex because of the way it changed the dynamics of how our bodies work togehter.  The older I get, the worse that problem becomes. 

 

The circumcision rate has dropped greatly in just the past decade, the cultural dynamic our children will be raised in will be different from the one when we were children. 

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My view is that I do not want to make any permanent decision for my kids that I do not need to make.  It's something that once done, cannot be undone.  So I did not circ my son.  

 

If and when he comes to me and says he wants a circ, and he is mature enough to understand the meaning of this choice, I will take him in and get it done.  

 

So I would pitch it to my husband as something your son can decide on later.

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the "mutual decision" should be your SON's decision, not his parents'. it is his body.

my DH is circumcised and favored circumcising our son. i stood my ground and said no. it is my understanding that in most hospitals, the mother is considered the "patient" and the mother's signature is required to do the surgery. this would make it YOUR decision, ultimately. when in doubt, don't.

don't perform unnecessary, painful, cosmetic surgery that will amputate the most sensitive part of his erogenous tissue.

not to mention the possibility of infections and other problems that are completely preventable by not having the surgery.

just say no. it's easy.

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#20 of 29 Old 01-05-2011, 07:34 AM
 
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I would make him watch a video of a circumcision. And honestly if you're able to "not care one way or the other" that tells me you likely haven't watched one either. I can't even make it through an entire video of a procedure, so I'd be damned if I were going to allow something that horribly unnecessary to happen to my son.


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#21 of 29 Old 01-05-2011, 09:04 AM
 
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I would make him watch a video of a circumcision. And honestly if you're able to "not care one way or the other" that tells me you likely haven't watched one either. I can't even make it through an entire video of a procedure, so I'd be damned if I were going to allow something that horribly unnecessary to happen to my son.



This.

 

I even get sick looking at pictures.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by chaoticzenmom View Post

My brother was intact and circ'd his son.  I honestly think that it was he equated foreskin with poverty.  My mother always told him that she just couldn't afford to get him done, so he was left intact.  [snip]

 

So, remind your husband that it's not a sign of poverty (it's 50/50 now) and the care of the intact penis is much gentler now.


This "reason" for circ that I think could be challenging for the intactivist movement, especially with Medicaid not covering circ ... it will translate to lower rates of circ overall, but disproportionatley in lower-income circles than in high-income circles. My sister circ'd her two sons, and gave as a reason that people in their "socioeconomic bracket" were almost 100% circ'd. Rolling eyes.

 

In earlier days, circ was used in the locker room to differentiate people of Jewish descent from others (this is depicted in lots of Hollywood movies set in the 1930s and 1940s) and was the basis for discriminating against circ'd boys at that time. Are we moving to a time when being circ'd will be a sign of relative wealth? Like fancy shoes or clothes? Sheesh. Please, say it ain't so!!

 

EDITED to remove suggestion that this was a "new" reason for circ. I was incorrect to refer to it that way. My bad!

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Quote:
Originally Posted by vachi73 View Post

Quote:

Originally Posted by chaoticzenmom View Post

My brother was intact and circ'd his son.  I honestly think that it was he equated foreskin with poverty.  My mother always told him that she just couldn't afford to get him done, so he was left intact.  [snip]

 

So, remind your husband that it's not a sign of poverty (it's 50/50 now) and the care of the intact penis is much gentler now.


This is a new "reason" for circ that I think could be challenging for the intactivist movement, especially with Medicaid not covering circ ... it will translate to lower rates of circ overall, but disproportionatley in lower-income circles than in high-income circles. My sister circ'd her two sons, and gave as a reason that people in their "socioeconomic bracket" were almost 100% circ'd. Rolling eyes.

 

In earlier days, circ was used in the locker room to differentiate people of Jewish descent from others (this is depicted in lots of Hollywood movies set in the 1930s and 1940s) and was the basis for discriminating against circ'd boys at that time. Are we moving to a time when being circ'd will be a sign of relative wealth? Like fancy shoes or clothes? Sheesh. Please, say it ain't so!!



This is not a "new" reason.  In the 1930's boys who were born in hospitals were circumcised. Families who could not afford a hospital birth and had their babies at home were looked down upon as they were lower class. Consequently circumcision was seen as class distinction between those who could afford a hospital birth and those who could not.

 

Circumcision Decline 

In 1971, the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) reported that there are no valid medical indications for circumcision in the neonatal period.  After that the nationwide incidence of neonatal circumcision continued the slow decline that started in 1965.

 

In 1989, the AAP issued a statement that claimed that circumcision had "potential benefits". The publication of this statement temporarily arrested the decline in circumcision. 

 

In 1999, the AAP issued yet another statement that said the data on potential benefits were insufficient to recommend the practice of neonatal non-therapeutic circumcision. Shortly thereafter, the American Medical Association declared that neonatal circumcision is a non- therapeutic procedure. More parents began to opt for genital integrity and the percentage of boys circumcised once again began to decline.

 

The CDC data, reported by the New York Times, showed that the incidence of circumcision declined from 56 percent in 2006 to 32.5 percent in 2009. According to these statistics, non-circumcision or genital integrity has become the normal condition among newborn boys in the United States.

 

Circumcision is covered by 33 states and is also covered by military insurance TRICARE. This medically unnecessary surgery is not covered in 17 states. It has not been covered in California since 1982. North Dakota 1986, Oregon 1994, Mississippi 1998, Nevada 1998, Washington 1998, Missouri 2002, Arizona 2002, North Carolina 2002, Montana 2003, Utah 2003, Florida 2003, Maine 2004, Louisiana 2005, Idaho 2005, Minnesota 2005, West Virginia 2010, South Carolina 2011.

 

Personally I don't see a class or poverty factor today. If you examine the data it looks more like a regional issue with a huge majority of boys in the west being intact. In the U.S 67.5% of boys were left intact in 2009 while 32.5% were circumcised. In 2009, 15 states federal programs did not cover circumcision, there is no way that they account for 67.5% of births. It's also silly to think that people cant afford to pay for the procedure on their own. A decline this significant has to do with awareness. Yes, people in states who's federal programs do not cover it could very well be more aware. 

 

I am happily married to an intact man. Until we did our research we had no idea how lucky we were or what lube was used for.

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#24 of 29 Old 01-05-2011, 11:01 AM
 
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Read this thread.

It made me think:

http://www.mothering.com/community/forum/thread/1278399/50-reasons-to-leave-it-alone


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Quote:
 DH really wanted our sons to be 'like him'. It's important to him

 

If your son is blond but your dh is dark will you color his hair? What if your sons are short and your DH is tall-will they get lifts so they are more like Dad? Why does your dh's needs trump your son's bodily integrity?

 

I can not support a decision in which a cosmetic "need" is used as an excuse to perform a surgery on an unwilling/unable to consent child.

 

 

Quote:
 decide not to for your SON's sake - its not about your husband - its about your CHILD. 

 

 

Well said.

 

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#26 of 29 Old 01-05-2011, 04:19 PM
 
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I think it is becoming an education issue, to be honest.  Will you (generic "you") circumcise b/c you think everyone else does?  Will you leave him intact b/c you have considered the ethics of it?


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#27 of 29 Old 01-05-2011, 09:29 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Read this thread.

It made me think:

http://www.mothering.com/community/forum/thread/1278399/50-reasons-to-leave-it-alone



Thanks for that thread.  To be honest, number 13 suits me very well, too.  :-P

 


Lady Zbyrd + DH = Alistair McKenzie
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#28 of 29 Old 01-06-2011, 05:05 AM - Thread Starter
 
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WIN!  I don't know if DH will read the article or not, but I've convinced him that medically, it's better to leave DS intact at birth, and there's no real reason for us to do it.  We're not part of any religion or community in which it is standard.  On top of that, the only thing that can really go wrong with being intact is improper care causing yeast infections.  whoopee - I'm sure DH will take care of that lesson.  lol


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#29 of 29 Old 01-06-2011, 08:41 AM
 
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I am so happy for you! One article that you might print out and leave for him to read is http://www.drmomma.org/2009/10/how-male-circumcision-impacts-your-love.html

It may help him appreciate what he has. My DH is also intact and had no idea what he had been blessed with until I started researching and sharing with him. 

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