What links, articles, videos etc do you think best explain the case against circumcision? My husband is not on board with leaving our second son intact. I regret our first ds' circ and do *not* want to do it again. I figure if I can give him enough info he'll come around to my pov. His basic arguement is that he's happy with his circ and he doesn't want ds to be "different."
Since your husband is concerned about the 'Matching' thing, I think this video might help open his eye, it's is a hysterical Penn and Teller bit about how silly that concern is. You should watch it first to make sure you think it's 'right' for him.
Give it some time, he gets to it. "Some people have argued, seriously that..."
Why not let the onus be on him?
Let him convince you that it IS something to have done? If you accept the idea that you have to convince him, you're taking on more than is your responsibility. If he wants to do that to the child that you give birth to, let him show his (philosophical) goods!
My dh didn't come around until after ds was born. When he was holding him, he finally got what I was saying. I found that it wasn't worth pushing him to see my points. His argument is emotional, and all of the rational points in the world won't change that. Just be gentle with him, only talk about the subject if he brings it up, and be firm. Loving but firm. It is a yes/no check box in the end. You could always tell him that the compromise is to let your son decide what's best. What is done is done, and once the circ happens, it can't be taken back. I wouldn't say dh is super enthusiastic about ds being intact. I do know, from little bits here and there, that he knows it's the right thing. It's just an uncomfortable and personal topic for him. Be very careful to not push the sexual side effects, though there are many. Even a hint of that would send my dh into defensiveland.
Our best resources were our family doctor, who is Indian, and not circ'd himself (and neither is his son) and our good friends (who are British and Chinese) told us we would be nuts to do it. The dad (the British one) isn't circ'd and they wouln't dream of having their son circ'd. Having trusted people to talk to helped dh a lot. Do you know anyone in your circle of friends who did not circumcise?
I actually found that dh responded better to looking for information on his own rather than me presenting it to him. He said it made him feel like I was plastering him to the wall with facts. Next time he says you need to circ, send him to find some factual reasons why (there aren't any that you can't refute easily). It will help him take ownership of the decision.
And in the end, know that he might be resentful and mad. It could happen. He might not come around. I love dh deeply and we have a great relationship. It was a huge problem for me that he was so upset about it.... but once the boy is there with all his parts working perfectly (which they will) and your dh sees that, he will understand your point. He might fuss for a few days, but he will come around. I know mine did and I wasn't sure he would. It was the hardest thing we ever fought over.... until ds was born. We are now both of this mindset: "Seriously? this is what the fuss is over? you're kidding me, right?" It's just a total non-issue. It just took time and a firm attitude from me. Just don't let him make you feel bad at all.
This is really long, but the most thorough and compelling argument I've ever seen:
This is really long, but the most thorough and compelling argument I've ever seen:
I was really impressed with the thorough information presented by a circumcised man. Excellent source OvenSeeksBun! I can never actually look at pics of a circumcision though... I get woozy looking at the restraint board!
The best resource I have found is Dr. Momma
This is also a great one-
And this one from Mothering Magazine-
This might be a good one for you in understanding your DH-
For me, although I enjoyed reading peoples arguments I wanted facts, hard biological facts. What does the foreskin? What is its purpose?
I like this - it's a list of questions one should ask before having surgery:
If the chips are down, the buffalo is empty.
I think that the important thing to realize is that your DH is on the defensive. Of course his circ is fine because he doesn't know otherwise and it's got to be hard to admit that something was taken from him without his consent. But that doesn't make it okay to have something removed from his son. Two wrongs definitely don't make a right. I'm sorry that you have regrets about your ds, and you keeping ds2 intact is an awesome and strong thing for you to do, mama!
Previous posters have shared some excellent links. As for your ds2 looking different, no two penises look a like no matter what. Just like no two vulvas are alike and generally I doubt most people drop their pants to compare with their parent's genitals. Ask your husband if he plans on shaving off all of his pubic hair to match his son or having a penis reduction since his will no doubt be larger. ;)
He knows he'd have to convince me to change my mind for it to happen as I would simply refuse to sign the consent and not hand him over otherwise. I just would like him to be on board and agree that it's the best thing rather than it be at odds. I was just surprised he wanted to circ our second boy since I was horrified the moment the brought him back to me all bloody. I hated how awful his little raw penis looked, I hated having to make sure it was covered in ointment properly for an entire year so that it wouldn't get adhesions, I hated the puss balls that formed at the adhesions, and most of all I hated cringing and trying not to cry when the doctor popped the skin back open when it stuck. I don't know why none of that changed his mind. Sigh.
I can so relate to how you are feeling, since ds is just 9 months old, so the arguments are fresh in my mind. My dh is a gentle, loving WONDERFUL dad. We are a team in everything we do, and this is the first time in the 10 years I have known him that the whole teamwork thing didn't work out at all. He just cornered himself into a very emotional place... understandably, since men don't take constructive criticism well when it comes to their penises. Leaving ds intact had nothing to do with dh as far as I was concerned. I wish he weren't circ'd, but we have a great physical relationship and nothing is missing in my mind. If he ever wanted to restore, I would support him, but it doesn't matter to me if he does or not... however in HIS mind, not having ds circ'd too meant that something must be wrong with being circ'd. I'm absolutely sure of it, because he really thought ds's penis was going to fall off after we left the hospital or something! He was so nervous right up to the birth, you'd have thought we were doing something outrageous to the baby... instead of just leaving him alone. I tried soo many times to be the better person and be understanding and bring the facts to him in all sorts of different ways. Nothing worked. He wasn't listening to any of it. He just couldn't open his eyes and see what I was saying. In his mind, as long as he wasn't in pain now, it must have not been so bad. Ugh. He was just not coming from his usual logical frame of mind (he is the logical one in the relationship, so that threw me for a loop!) Things did quiet down though, and quickly. In my experience, once the "idea" is no longer that, but a real, live human being, then it becomes less of a big deal. He still isn't thrilled, but more because the whole subject just seems to make him uncomfortable. He'd rather everybody in the world would just stop RIC so he could just not think about it (well, me too, but that's another matter :o) It is quite a paradigm shift. I think it takes some mental adjustments oh his part that are not easy to make.
We left ds intact, dh is circ'ed. Ds is only 6 months old, but I've wondered if/when he'll notice the difference, and how we'll respond if he questions it.
Two days ago, my 3 year old dd was playing with her belly button. She asked me why hers was different than mine, her dad's, and her brother's. She has an "outie" and the rest of us have "innies". I told her everyone has different body parts, and that is what makes all of us unique. She smiled at her stomach and went on with her day.
That's when it occurred to me that we all have so many differences, this whole "matching" thing is utterly insane. I would talk to your dh about all the differences he'll have from your ds, and that your ds will be just fine with all if them. Because no two bodies are alike.
I have said this in other posts, but my DH was born with a congenital facial issue that required two different surgeries to "repair" (and might have benefited from a third, but he declined as a young teen). (And this is on his FACE, something seen every day, not something normally clothed!) At any rate, if we ascribed to the "not being different" theory, we would have to inflict a facial scar on all four of our boys so they would look like DH.
In the case of having one intact DS and one circ'd, there are others here who have more direct experience, but my gut feeling is that the one to whom you'll ultimately have to answer is the circ'd one, who may wonder why the best part of his penis is missing, but his brother's isn't.
I know this must be a hard issue to resolve at your house. Hang in there, and keep us posted.
He's coming around after I gently relayed some facts to him...and showed him a picture of an intact baby next to a recently circ'd baby. The wound got to him. He must have blocked out what our son looked like. I was surprised that it makes men so uncomfortable to consider circumcision might be detrimental. They don't want to think something "bad" happened to their male parts, so if nothing bad happened, then it's ok to have it done to their son. That kind of thinking never occurred to me before reading this thread and some of the articles.
this is my favorite and i've seen many (proud intactivist here! :))
also this one, because it's ignorance on the doctors part
can anyone tell me what a 'risk benefit' is?
Jessica, wife to Derrick, missing Joslyn , 22 weeks 06.18.08, Baby Kai Ambrose 05.10.10 and Isla Blythe born on Thanksgiving '12
Risk benefit might be "risk/benefit analysis," similar to a cost-benefit analysis. In other words, it's weighing the risks against the benefits. This is where intactivists differ from those who are pro-circumcision ... how they weigh the risks of the procedure (immediate, and long-term) versus its benefits (again, immediate and long-term).