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#1 of 31 Old 02-07-2011, 08:08 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Circumcision has been a touchy subject since the moment I found out I was pregnant.  We absolutely disagree about what should be done.  I quoted several research documents, including the recommendations from various health organizations stating that routine infant circumcision was considered a cosmetic surgery and is not necessary for newborns.  He retaliated by calling me closed minded for not considering circumcision as an option.  He wants the baby to look like him.  I argued that nobody is going to be glancing in the diaper area and saying "awww, he has your penis", because frankly, that'd be just plain weird.  I asked him to simply consider the idea of leaving the baby alone, maybe do a little research of his own before making a decision, and he agreed to look into it more if it turned out we were having a boy.

 

His research turned out to be quizzing friends and family members on their opinions, which, not surprisingly given the generation, are all pro-circ.  One even suggested to him that he sneak away and have it done without my knowledge!!! 

 

This past weekend took the cake.  We had gotten together with his family for a dinner, and out of nowhere he asks what they think about it, and aren't I weird for being so obsessed about a body part I don't even have.  I did my best to argue my points, but they were all shot down with "he'll get made fun of", and "I know x person and x person who had to get it done as adults" and "just get it overwith when he's a baby, they don't feel pain that young" and "it's gross".  Keeping in mind that my intact son from a previous marriage is sitting at the table absorbing all of this trash.

 

He waited until I had left the table to take the kids to the washroom to bring it up a second time, ridiculing me behind my back to his family one last time.

 

Did I mention we're having a girl??? And have known this for weeks??  Why he even decided to bring it up at all is beyond me.

 

I am so angry and hurt over this.  I just don't even know what to say to him.  Five months pregnant, and alone.

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#2 of 31 Old 02-07-2011, 08:20 AM
 
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But he is hoping for a son one day, right? I think you have your answer... you won't change this man. Either make your girl an only child or do what needs to be done here. He is clearly disrespecting you and your unborns.

 

 

BTW, one of the arguments that I won a couple of girlfriends over with was "the bread winning daddy has few chances to bathe with his child" argument. Honestly, my dh is the sole breadwinner and I think he and ds bathed together twice in my ds 15 year life span thus far. Both times at the beach in an outdoor shower setting. Never a word was said about the penises ... they were trying to get the sand off.

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#3 of 31 Old 02-07-2011, 08:30 AM
 
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Your partner's actions stink, that's for sure.  There isn't any excuse for it, but there is a reason.  He needs desperately to justify his own circumcision, or else face that he was harmed by his doctor and with the consent of his parents.  It looks like at this point option B is too difficult for him, and he has chosen to justify his circumcision at the expense of you and your older son.  He may still yet come around, but right now he has shown that he isn't ready.

 

I would be upset too if I were you.  But the main reason I would be angry is for your older son's sake, who witnessed and internalized the ridiculous scene with his family.  If I were you, I would absolutely and firmly put my foot down for your son's sake.  I would make sure that my partner understood that this behavior (berating intactness) was not ok and would not be tolerated ever again.  And if it ever happened again, I would abruptly stop the conversation.  Leave or ask the offenders to leave.  Absolutely not ok for anyone to make your son feel like there is something wrong with his penis.

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#4 of 31 Old 02-07-2011, 09:05 AM
 
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Gah. My ex husband did the same with our son. What it came down to was me going extremely mama bear on him. I told him: "Our son is NOT going to be circumcised. End of story. If you can't deal with it, you can leave. If you ever tease him you will be out the door."

 

We ended up divorced for other reasons but I assume he's finally gotten over it. I told my son that if anyone ever teases him (including his father) to just remind them that they are the ones missing the best part of their penis, not him. I mean, really. Teasing a little boy or making comments is so immature.

 

Luckily you still have time to keep trying to get your partner (husband?) to come around. But if it doesn't work and you do have a boy someday, put your foot down, mama!

 

Honestly, if I were you I would let him know that what he is done has pushed you to the point of leaving. You have every right to be angry and upset. It's one thing for him to disagree with what research you have presented him but getting his family to gang up on you is extremely uncalled for.

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#5 of 31 Old 02-07-2011, 10:34 AM
 
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I did walk away from a relationship over circ. We didn't have any children, thankfully. But your case is a little different. I think that printing up material by men who have been circumcised and then fathered intact sons is a good place to start.

 

Here are some good ones:

http://www.fathermag.com/health/circ/gmas/

http://www.noharmm.org/raising.htm

http://www.drmomma.org/2010/10/letter-to-my-intact-son-why-i-kept-you.html (from mommy, but touching)

http://www.circumstitions.com/Father.html (this one is a circumcised father writing about an intact son)

 

I'd print that last one and set it by the big potty, sort of inconspicuously among other gentle parenting stuff.

 

ETA: The vulnerablity of men. DO NOT print this one. http://www.circumstitions.com/men-vuln.html


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#6 of 31 Old 02-07-2011, 02:35 PM
 
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Originally Posted by ~Nikki~ View Post

We had gotten together with his family for a dinner, and out of nowhere he asks what they think about it, and aren't I weird for being so obsessed about a body part I don't even have.

 



Unless you're missing your clitoral hood, your dh is the one who is obsessed with a body part he doesn't have...which is understandable, in some ways. I'm sure I'd have issues with the clitoral hood if I didn't have mine (possibly similar to the intense emotional reactions I'm capable of when talking to women who have vaginas that have actually passed a baby through them).

 

I feel for your husband, but his behaviour is completely inexcusable and over-the-top and I'd be furious that he brought on that discussion in front of your intact son!  Have you contemplated asking him how he'd feel about it if you wanted to circ your daughter, being very clear that you "just" mean removing the clitoral hood? For some people, that seems to make an impression.

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#7 of 31 Old 02-07-2011, 03:33 PM
 
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I just wanted to say two things -- one, I am sorry you are going through this! it's not easy to be pregnant and feel like you are on the defensive/being attacked or are in conflict. Not good for you, your baby, or your blood pressure! :)

 

Two, ITA with PP who said that they would NOT tolerate this type of behavior/conversation around your intact DS. Period. And, furthermore, I wouldn't allow it in the future around your intact son or your intact daughter!! Just not approrpriate.

 

 

OK, I said two, but I meant three :) Three, this is *so* clearly HIS hang-up/issue, it's not even funny. If I were you, I would (as vehemently as was necessary!) remind him the next time that HE brings the topic up that HE brought it up and seems far more hung-up on it than you are, and that you will not tolerate the topic around your children.

 

Hang in there!!!

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#8 of 31 Old 02-07-2011, 06:46 PM
 
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This has absolutely nothing to do with the baby in your belly.  Your baby will be a girl anyway, so it is truly a non-issue.

 

Your Dh is defending his own penis.  he needs to assert that he has a good penis.  Everything you have shown him has caused him to panic that he might not actually have the very best type of penis, so he needs to get others to say how much better his type of penis is.


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#9 of 31 Old 02-07-2011, 07:07 PM
 
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Originally Posted by eepster View Post

This has absolutely nothing to do with the baby in your belly.  Your baby will be a girl anyway, so it is truly a non-issue.

 

Your Dh is defending his own penis.  he needs to assert that he has a good penis.  Everything you have shown him has caused him to panic that he might not actually have the very best type of penis, so he needs to get others to say how much better his type of penis is.



You know...I actually get that (sort of) about guys. But, if my dh ever finds it necessary to assert that he has the best type of penis, by encouraging people to tell my son that his (my son) penis is "gross", there will be hell to pay.


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#10 of 31 Old 02-07-2011, 08:54 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm Bride View Post



Quote:
Originally Posted by eepster View Post

This has absolutely nothing to do with the baby in your belly.  Your baby will be a girl anyway, so it is truly a non-issue.

 

Your Dh is defending his own penis.  he needs to assert that he has a good penis.  Everything you have shown him has caused him to panic that he might not actually have the very best type of penis, so he needs to get others to say how much better his type of penis is.



You know...I actually get that (sort of) about guys. But, if my dh ever finds it necessary to assert that he has the best type of penis, by encouraging people to tell my son that his (my son) penis is "gross", there will be hell to pay.


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#11 of 31 Old 02-07-2011, 09:14 PM
 
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I'm going to be honest.  I would divorce a man who behaved that way.  I'd be very thankful that the only child I have to deal with sharing custody with doesn't have a penis so it can remain a non issue once we aren't together anymore.  I might consider not leaving him if I didn't want more kids, but after getting all sorts of people in on our business in front of an intact CHILD not caring how it might hurt him, I'd struggle with ever being able to respect him again or being able to trust him with how he might speak around my son.

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#12 of 31 Old 02-07-2011, 10:27 PM
 
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It's shocking what people will put up with. 

 

He doesn't want or deserve a partner. 


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#13 of 31 Old 02-08-2011, 05:05 AM
 
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Wow is right!   Thank God you are having a girl and thank God you protected your older son from circ'ing.

 

You are one smart mama!  Don't ever let anyone tell you differently!

 

I can't say whether or not I would end a marriage over the issue, I would tend to go with the poster who said: "He's not being circ'ed.  End of story.  If you don't like it, there's the door."  and let him walk.  I don't think we will ever know what we'll do in these situation until they actually happen! 

 

I wish you peace in your decision. 

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#14 of 31 Old 02-08-2011, 05:07 AM
 
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Oh!  I forgot! 

 

The fact that he was saying those things in front of your Intact son is, to me, boderline verbally abusive.  If I were to end the marriage, it would be over that.  Him not having enough sense to keep his mouth shut in front of your (fabulous) Intact child.

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#15 of 31 Old 02-08-2011, 11:14 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm Bride View Post



Quote:
Originally Posted by eepster View Post

This has absolutely nothing to do with the baby in your belly.  Your baby will be a girl anyway, so it is truly a non-issue.

 

Your Dh is defending his own penis.  he needs to assert that he has a good penis.  Everything you have shown him has caused him to panic that he might not actually have the very best type of penis, so he needs to get others to say how much better his type of penis is.



You know...I actually get that (sort of) about guys. But, if my dh ever finds it necessary to assert that he has the best type of penis, by encouraging people to tell my son that his (my son) penis is "gross", there will be hell to pay.


I'm not saying the behavior is OK.  I just think it is necessary to understand where a behavior comes from in order to fix it.

 

Continuing to talk about why the baby she is carrying shouldn't be circ'd is just going to make him more and more defensive.  helping him understand that he doesn't need to defend his own penis can get him to move past this and start behaving in an appropriate manner again.


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#16 of 31 Old 02-08-2011, 01:34 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eepster View Post



Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm Bride View Post



Quote:
Originally Posted by eepster View Post

This has absolutely nothing to do with the baby in your belly.  Your baby will be a girl anyway, so it is truly a non-issue.

 

Your Dh is defending his own penis.  he needs to assert that he has a good penis.  Everything you have shown him has caused him to panic that he might not actually have the very best type of penis, so he needs to get others to say how much better his type of penis is.



You know...I actually get that (sort of) about guys. But, if my dh ever finds it necessary to assert that he has the best type of penis, by encouraging people to tell my son that his (my son) penis is "gross", there will be hell to pay.


I'm not saying the behavior is OK.  I just think it is necessary to understand where a behavior comes from in order to fix it.

 

Continuing to talk about why the baby she is carrying shouldn't be circ'd is just going to make him more and more defensive.  helping him understand that he doesn't need to defend his own penis can get him to move past this and start behaving in an appropriate manner again.


He's bringing it up from out of nowhere when they already know they're having a girl. I don't think this has much to do with OP continuing to talk about it, and has a lot to do with him being really obnoxious about it. I truly do think some understanding in this area is necessary, however, there is no way I'd be understanding about an attack like that on my son. Having to defend his own penis doesn't give him the right to attack, and encourage others to attack, his stepson's penis. He needs to grow up.

 

I understand where all kinds of unacceptable behaviour, in both children and adults, comes from. That doesn't mean I'm going to put up with it.

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#17 of 31 Old 02-08-2011, 06:30 PM
 
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What if a boy turned out to have a bigger penis than your husband, would he want the boy to cut off a few inches to make it look like his? I mean seriously, a baby penis is not going to look like a grown up penis, circed or not. And by the time it is big enough to maybe look the same they won't be comparing.

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#18 of 31 Old 02-08-2011, 07:03 PM
 
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To me circ is the secondary issue here. The primary issue for me is how disrespectful he is to his wife. Is this a pattern? Is it going to become one? What if OP and her baby want to breastfeed beyond a year, is he going to mock her in front of his family again? This is the issue that needs addressing at the moment IMO. The circ discussion can resume when he has learned how to treat a partner with respect.


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#19 of 31 Old 02-08-2011, 07:15 PM
 
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this exactly.  making it a huge mock fest in front of the family and in front of a CHILD whom this concerns (being that he is intact and all) is exactly why I'd struggle to ever have respect or trust in him and think i'd leave in a similar situation.  The issue isn't that he is against circ... it is how he is BEHAVING about it.  Extremely disrespectful and I agree with PP... borders on verbal abuse.
 

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To me circ is the secondary issue here. The primary issue for me is how disrespectful he is to his wife. Is this a pattern? Is it going to become one? What if OP and her baby want to breastfeed beyond a year, is he going to mock her in front of his family again? This is the issue that needs addressing at the moment IMO. The circ discussion can resume when he has learned how to treat a partner with respect.



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#20 of 31 Old 02-09-2011, 10:17 AM
 
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ITA - it's bad enough he's all wrapped up in how his penis does or does not function, to the detriment of any little boys in the room, but the *major* issue for me would be the blatant disrespect he showed both OP and her son, and how he then further encouraged his entire family to be enthusiastically disrespectful of them both, particularly while it sounds like they were guests in her IL's home, possibly not having the keys in her possession to get up and walk out and leave her dh there to ponder his stupidity. Even if he did make an unexpected turn-around on circ as an issue, there's still a lot of work he needs to do to repair the damage and develop new communication skills.

 

I get that he is likely feeling disrespected and attacked based on how is penis (does not) look or (does not) function, but that's no excuse for that kind of treatment. What kind of guy brings that into public discussion, rather than keeping it private between his wife and himself? That's just sad, that he's so deeply insecure he'd throw his wife and stepson under the proverbial bus while publicly attempting to garner support for his own penis.


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#21 of 31 Old 02-09-2011, 10:34 AM
 
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I swear that if women thought as highly of mens' penises as men seem to, nobody would ever leave the house!

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#22 of 31 Old 02-09-2011, 08:40 PM
 
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For your intact son's sake, you need to have a stern conversation with your husband that putting down intact penises in front of your DS is not allowed. Period. 

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#23 of 31 Old 02-10-2011, 07:00 PM
 
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I haven't read the whole thread.  I think it is reprehensible that he is verbally attacking, mocking & criticizing you & your intact son.  Period.  Unacceptable, pathetic really.  Big hugs for your son. 

 

I didn't have to work really hard to convince my dh, but I was prepared to go to the mat over the issue.  I started off carefully though.  We read the mothering booklet together.  By the end dh was almost crying, he was crushed that his parents had made that choice for all 5 of their sons and knew we wouldn't make that choice for any of our boys.  As it turns out we have one boy & two girls.  We've had many conversations over the years about our intactavist beliefs, lol.  We hashed out the whole "look like me" weirdness.  I asked dh if he knew wether or not his Dad was circ'd, dh doesn't have any idea.  He doesn't have any recollection of ever seeing his Dad's penis.  So, maybe ask your dp what his Dad's penis looks like.  The whole locker room thing, dh says most of the guys were busy looking at the ceiling so they wouldn't get accused of checking out anyone's junk.  You could also check statistics for your area. 

 

On the whole ego side of things I absolutly reassured dh that his equipment (is) was very pleasing, iykwim. 

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#24 of 31 Old 02-11-2011, 04:32 PM
 
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We would be going to counseling over this, full stop. If he refused counseling, I would be getting my ducks in a row to leave him. I am very against divorce, except in situations that are truly abusive. And mama, this man's behavior was beyond unacceptable, verging on abusive. Your poor little boy, having to hear that... bawling.gif

 

I'm so sorry. For what it's worth, you are absolutely right and he is absolutely wrong. I hope you're able to get him into therapy. hug.gifhug.gifhug.gif


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#25 of 31 Old 02-12-2011, 08:57 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I'm not saying the behavior is OK.  I just think it is necessary to understand where a behavior comes from in order to fix it.

 

Continuing to talk about why the baby she is carrying shouldn't be circ'd is just going to make him more and more defensive.  helping him understand that he doesn't need to defend his own penis can get him to move past this and start behaving in an appropriate manner again.


That's what I'm aiming for.  I made it clear that he is to say nothing negative about my son again.  Period.  I totally agree that this has more to do with feeling the need to adamently defend HIS bits, rather than anything else.  He also grew up in a home full of ignorance, which doesn't excuse his behaviour, but certainly helps explain it.  We ended up getting in a massive fight over the topic and separated ourselves for a few days, so I'm sure he now understands that it IS a "big deal" to cut off a part of a child when it's not necessary.  I even agreed that I'd totally circumsize a boy IF IT WAS MEDICALLY NECESSARY.  Ie: if the child is born and the doctor says "woah there, that's quite the problem, I think we should take care of it", then of course I'd entertain the idea.  But every single thing I read tells me that ROUTINE circumcision is absolutely not necessary.  You don't rip out the appendix and tonsils at birth simply because something "might" go wrong in the future and it's "easier" to do it to a baby who can't speak out and say "Hey, dudes, this totally sucks."

 

I also whipped out the stats that show that 97% of the freaking WORLD is intact, so that maybe he'd understand this isn't some sort of crazy weird thing I've come up with on my own...that his opinion is very much the minority.  It's a hard concept for him to grasp, because he grew up in an era where yeah, guys probably were made fun of in the locker room, and most of his friends were also cut.  He has every single one of his friends and family members on "his side", and that helps him to justify his opinion.  He doesn't understand that there's a whole world out there that doesn't share these views. =/



 

 
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#26 of 31 Old 02-13-2011, 07:41 AM
 
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Stay strong.  Unless he is willing to come up with a rational argument for RIC, and weigh the advantages and disadvantages against the alternative of leaving him intact, then he is simply being emotional and using fear and emotional pleas to win his argument.  This is NOT how inteligent, rational people should come to agreement on decisions regarding the health of their children.

 

Instead, parents have the obligation to decide based on the best interests of their children.  Weigh all the consequneces, in a way that any rational person could see why they decided the way they did.  Not emotional people terrorized by the fearmongering and misinformation that pro circ'rs feed them.

 

 If he cannot do this, then the default should be leave your son intact.

 

His body, his choice.  There is absolutely nothing wrong with waiting, indeed it can be argued that RIC is the wrong time to do a circumcision because it is impossible for the doictor to predict the outcome with any certainty, simply because an infant's genitals are not yet developed.

 

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#27 of 31 Old 02-16-2011, 07:59 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Greg B View Post

Stay strong.  Unless he is willing to come up with a rational argument for RIC, and weigh the advantages and disadvantages against the alternative of leaving him intact, then he is simply being emotional and using fear and emotional pleas to win his argument.  This is NOT how inteligent, rational people should come to agreement on decisions regarding the health of their children.

 

Instead, parents have the obligation to decide based on the best interests of their children.  Weigh all the consequneces, in a way that any rational person could see why they decided the way they did.  Not emotional people terrorized by the fearmongering and misinformation that pro circ'rs feed them.

 

 If he cannot do this, then the default should be leave your son intact.

 

His body, his choice.  There is absolutely nothing wrong with waiting, indeed it can be argued that RIC is the wrong time to do a circumcision because it is impossible for the doictor to predict the outcome with any certainty, simply because an infant's genitals are not yet developed.

 

Regards


I wanted to add that alot of times pro-circers really do try to use emotions to promote their agenda. And then they say that intactivists are the emotional and fearmongerers amongst us. It is NOT rational to cut up babies. It is NOT rational to want a child's genitals to look like its parents (male or female). It is NOT rational to use one's sexual preference to determine surgery for their child. It is NOT rational to perform cosmetic alterations to children. It IS rational to protect your child.

 

After reading over information, I would just tell him case closed. Don't bring it up again. After a son is born, a RATIONAL person will see that you are right. This has happened with my dh. He wondered, I told him in no uncertain terms. And left it to him to come to terms. I did tell him on our first date. That way he coudl walk away, no harm no foul. That is why I love him. He stayed.


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#28 of 31 Old 02-17-2011, 07:05 AM
 
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ITA - it's bad enough he's all wrapped up in how his penis does or does not function, to the detriment of any little boys in the room, but the *major* issue for me would be the blatant disrespect he showed both OP and her son, and how he then further encouraged his entire family to be enthusiastically disrespectful of them both, particularly while it sounds like they were guests in her IL's home, possibly not having the keys in her possession to get up and walk out and leave her dh there to ponder his stupidity. Even if he did make an unexpected turn-around on circ as an issue, there's still a lot of work he needs to do to repair the damage and develop new communication skills.

 

I get that he is likely feeling disrespected and attacked based on how is penis (does not) look or (does not) function, but that's no excuse for that kind of treatment. What kind of guy brings that into public discussion, rather than keeping it private between his wife and himself? That's just sad, that he's so deeply insecure he'd throw his wife and stepson under the proverbial bus while publicly attempting to garner support for his own penis.


That put it all really well! I mean, sure the poor guy is hurting and defensive, but that doesn't excuse berating and belittling you and your son. However, I wouldn't leave him over it IF he is willing to work on working through his issues and treating you and your son as he should. IF he doesn't do that needed work and improvement, then I'd consider ending the relationship, if he keeps on treating you and your children so poorly and shows no interest in changing.

 

Just wanted to chime in on your remarks about having a circumcision done if/when it becomes medically necessary. Beware American doctors!! They will take one look at the foreskin and tell you it is a big problem and needs to be removed! I have an intact adult friend, he told me that every time he went to the doctor as a child, the doctor told his mom that he HAD to have a circumcision for one reason or another. She stood firm, he is intact, and he NEVER EVER had a problem at all. Despite the dire predictions of the doctors wanting to cut him. And this is what goes on with a child who is having NO issues with his penis. It's even worse if you are at the doctor's for a problem, be it diaper rash or a uti or separation trauma..... they can't just treat the issue, they always want to cut. So be very careful if you're ever told your son has a medical need for a circumcision. Chances are he doesn't! For evidence, I would say look at countries where they don't routinely circumcise in the first place. They also very very rarely circumcise at any point in life for any reason. So, if say, only 1 in 10,000 men in Denmark ever lose their foreskin for any reason (I think that is the statistic), how can it be that all these intact boys in the US have doctors telling them (or their parents) that they "need" a circumcision??

 

 

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#29 of 31 Old 02-17-2011, 07:59 AM
 
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That put it all really well! I mean, sure the poor guy is hurting and defensive, but that doesn't excuse berating and belittling you and your son. However, I wouldn't leave him over it IF he is willing to work on working through his issues and treating you and your son as he should. IF he doesn't do that needed work and improvement, then I'd consider ending the relationship, if he keeps on treating you and your children so poorly and shows no interest in changing.

 

Just wanted to chime in on your remarks about having a circumcision done if/when it becomes medically necessary. Beware American doctors!! They will take one look at the foreskin and tell you it is a big problem and needs to be removed! I have an intact adult friend, he told me that every time he went to the doctor as a child, the doctor told his mom that he HAD to have a circumcision for one reason or another. She stood firm, he is intact, and he NEVER EVER had a problem at all. Despite the dire predictions of the doctors wanting to cut him. And this is what goes on with a child who is having NO issues with his penis. It's even worse if you are at the doctor's for a problem, be it diaper rash or a uti or separation trauma..... they can't just treat the issue, they always want to cut. So be very careful if you're ever told your son has a medical need for a circumcision. Chances are he doesn't! For evidence, I would say look at countries where they don't routinely circumcise in the first place. They also very very rarely circumcise at any point in life for any reason. So, if say, only 1 in 10,000 men in Denmark ever lose their foreskin for any reason (I think that is the statistic), how can it be that all these intact boys in the US have doctors telling them (or their parents) that they "need" a circumcision??

 

 


How true. Very nicely put. I also think it is 1 in 10,000. I also read that somewhere while researching a paper for school. I think I read that on American medical website, to boot.


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#30 of 31 Old 02-17-2011, 03:40 PM
 
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Women who don't believe in circumcision are a minority in this country right now.  The battle to reverse the trend to circumcize in America is in it's infancy and there will be a long, drawn out battle ahead of us.  We have to start in our own homes, with our husbands and partners, no matter what it takes.   Someday, our husbands will or will not understand, but I believe with each generation of boys who are left intact, the tide will turn in favor of more American couples choosing NOT to circumcize......after all....."dad" (our sons grown up) never was and he's just fine the way he is......it will take time, but we have to stand firm and fight the good fight. My husband was furious with me too, he was cruel, angry, insulting, he ignored me, refused to help with our infant son.....the whole 9  yards........things have settled down, our son is 3 now, but he still disagrees with me.  We just don't talk about it anymore.  I'm pregnant again and don't know what I'm having, but interestingly, this time, he doesn't even ask or bring it up. He knows I will never relent on that issue.   There's nothing to discuss.  


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