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#31 of 46 Old 08-10-2011, 10:48 AM
 
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Originally Posted by crosstitchgirl View Post

don't know yet if i am having a little boy or girl but i have made it clear to my hubby that i dont want our son cut. this has become a touchy area with him because he does want our boy cut. his reason , he dont want his boys to look different than him. i try to explain what cutting will do to to our sons later in life if we have it done. i dont have any thing to really back me up thou as i have not really looked up any books or papers showing the effects of cutting. i know in my heart of hearts it does effect men thou . i cant till you how much trouble it must be causing for us in the bedroom at night. any links to some good websites on this subject?


this article is for you, only.  http://www.udonet.com/circumcision/vincent/vulnerability_of_men.html 

 

gotta run.  check the sticky for more resources but you probably need to back off, maybe way off, for a while, depending on how pregnant you are.

 

sus

 


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#32 of 46 Old 08-12-2011, 12:18 PM
 
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Does anyone know any current information about the company "Foregen" (I think that is the spelling)?  Supposedly it is a company looking to do a trial on foreskin regeneration and it sounds very interesting.

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#33 of 46 Old 12-15-2011, 05:25 PM
 
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A good way of looking at it is that a penis is a very delicate piece of equipment and its not designed to have pieces carved off it.

 
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#34 of 46 Old 12-19-2011, 07:00 PM
 
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I wish more there was more of this discussion, really. Many of the mothers of circed boys that debate elsewhere contend that their sons made it through the procedure "just fine" and they have no problems whatsoever.

 

But do they have a crystal ball? How will it affect their son's sex life? Will it contribute to ED and other problems later in life? That's what astounds me. He won't be a little kid forever.


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#35 of 46 Old 12-19-2011, 08:32 PM
 
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Originally Posted by japonica View Post

I wish more there was more of this discussion, really. Many of the mothers of circed boys that debate elsewhere contend that their sons made it through the procedure "just fine" and they have no problems whatsoever.

But do they have a crystal ball? How will it affect their son's sex life? Will it contribute to ED and other problems later in life? That's what astounds me. He won't be a little kid forever.

I agree. Some of my girlfriends circed their babies and they have a spiel about how he came back from the procedure not even crying. They then struggle to breastfeed and have to rip at his little penis at every diaper change to avoid adhesions. So sick. I can't imagine how one feels about their privates if every diaper change is painful.
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#36 of 46 Old 12-20-2011, 05:17 PM
 
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I think one of the biggest reasons I'm a bit of an outsider here is because of my distaste for so many studies posted as evidence against circumcision.  This study size is too small to be relevant, and if someone pro-circ posted a study showing that the foreskin caused some kind of harm (cancer, for instance), then it would be dismissed because of the sample size.

There's a lot of speculation on this issue, but not really any hard evidence.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by erin23kate View Post

http://www.cirp.org/library/sex_function/shen1/

 

[Erectile function evaluation after adult circumcision]

[Article in Chinese]

Shen Z, Chen S, Zhu C, Wan Q, Chen Z.

Department of Urology,
First Affiliated Hospital, School of Medicine,
Zhejiang University,
Hangzhou, Zhejiang 310003,
China.
shenzhj@mail.hz.zj.cn

OBJECTIVE: To evaluate the erectile function of adults after circumcision.

METHODS: Ninty-five patients were investigated on erectile function by questionnaire before and after circumcision, respectively.

RESULTS: Eighteen patients suffered from mild erectile dysfunction before circumcision, and 28 suffered from mild or moderate erectile dysfunction after circumcision (P = 0.001). Adult circumcision appeared to have resulted in weakened erectile confidence in 33 cases (P = 0.04), difficult insertion in 41 cases (P = 0.03), prolonged intercourse in 31 cases (P = 0.04) and improved satisfaction in 34 cases (P = 0.04).

CONCLUSIONS: Adult circumcision has certain effect on erectile function, to which more importance should be attached.

PMID: 14979200 [PubMed - in process]

[CIRP Comment: This study, unfortunately, was published in Chinese. We have only the English language abstract to guide us. Circumcision is uncommon in China, so these 95 men apparently were circumcised to treat a medical condition with a problem prepuce. Circumcision resulted in erectile dysfunction in 28 (28.4%), weakened erectile confidence in 33 (34.7%) difficult insertion in 41 (43.1%), prolonged intercourse in 31 (32.6%), and improved satisfaction in 34 (35.7%). It is likely that the inproved satisfaction resulted from being freed of the medical condition and the problem prepuce, not from the circumcision. This study tends to confirm the earlier findings of Fink et al.]



 


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#37 of 46 Old 12-20-2011, 05:19 PM
 
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If this were the case, why can men get erections throughout puberty and most of their adult life?  Further, if this were the case, why do drugs like viagra and cialis (which work on the blood vessels) restore sexual function for so many men?
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveBennett View Post

The frenulum is the key to it all. Cut that bad boy off and you're cutting off the part of the body scientifically proven to be fundamental to erection, ejaculation and urinary continence. Here's the story.

 

Sorrells et al (2007) showed that circumcision ablates the most sensitive parts of the penis, this may or may not include the frenulum depending on the nature of the cut but it is nonetheless a highly sensitive part. Sensitivity is only half the answer, what really matters is how that part is innervated.

 

Yang and Bradley (1999) showed that the frenulum is innervated almost exclusively by the perineal nerve, not the dorsal penile nerve - see figure 1. Where does the perineal nerve go?

 

Uchio et al (1999) showed that the two nerve routes are independent and reference other works to state:

“The motor efferents of the perineal nerve innervate the pelvic floor musculature, including the bulbocavernosus muscle.[8] The contribution of the perineal nerve to urinary continence and ejaculations have been well described.[4], [9] ... The frenulum, which is innervated by the perineal nerve has been shown clinically to require a lower threshold for induction of erection and ejaculation,[12] and histologically to have higher numbers of genital receptors than other areas of the penis.[13]"

 

If you need more convincing Apostolidis and Fowler (2002) presented a case report of a guy whose perineal nerve was damaged during vasectomy - his dorsal nerve was completely fine, and yet "The patient reported the absence of reflexogenic and morning erections but preserved psychogenic erections, decreased ejaculatory force and orgasmic ability. He had also had secondary depression"

 

I've been arguing about this with urologists for years for my own case. I finally found one that believed me but of course there was nothing he could do for me. If you can use the results of my investigations to publicise these medical facts and stop people circumcising then please do.

 

Uchio's references:

4. Dick, H. C., Bradley, W. E., Scott, F. B. and Timm, G. W.: Pudendal sexual reflexes: electrophysiologic investigations. Urology, 3: 376, 1973.

8. Takahashi, M. and Sato, T.: Innervation of the anterior perineal muscles and its morphological consideration. Anat. Anz., 158: 65, 1985.

9. Shafik, A.: Perineal nerve stimulation for urinary sphincter control. Experimental study. Urol. Res., 22: 151, 1994.

12. Sarkarati, M., Rossier, A. and Fam, B.: Experience in vibratory and electroejaculation techniques in spinal cord injury patients: a preliminary report. J. Urol., 138: 59, 1987.

13. Halata, Z. and Munger, B.: The neuroanatomical basis for the protopathic sensibility of the human glans penis. Brain Res., 371: 205, 1986.

 

 



 


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#38 of 46 Old 12-21-2011, 09:05 PM
 
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I don't think that studies are even necessary or pertinent.  The science is solid on the purposes of natural foreskin and with all the ED in our society it isn't rocket science to figure out the negative effects of choppiing off an important part of a mans sexual anatomy!  A first grader could understand why cutting on a baby's body is wrong.........forget the "studies"........look at what makes sense.

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#39 of 46 Old 12-27-2011, 06:51 PM
 
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I agree.  The Sorrells study (linked above) states that the five most sensitive locations on a normal penis are lost to circumcision.  Fewer nerves = diminished function.  Secondly, as mentioned previously, the glans becomes an external organ, which causes it's surface skin to become keratinized and many times thicker, burying what nerves there are; mostly located on the sulcus).  This process is ongoing and the affect are cumulative.  That is why we continualy hear young (circumcised) men proclaim that their sex life is fantastic, but ask him how he's doing when he hits 60!!

 

Also, E.D. is just one part of the equation.  delayed or absent ejaculation affect many men, and I do believe that drugs such as Viagra do squat for that affliction.

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#40 of 46 Old 12-28-2011, 12:09 PM
 
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So true.... Absent or delayed ejaculation problems are not uncommon problems in ED, but often not talked about. Viagra can work on the erection but often an ejaculation is not reached.  Testosterone replacement can be as effective as Viagra, but it has NO effect on the cumulative effects of sensation loss due to circumcision in the older man.

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#41 of 46 Old 03-21-2012, 03:57 PM
 
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Do you suppose it also might have something to do with the loss of sensitivity (as in the skin is no longer regularly protected and becomes "tougher", dryer, etc.. than it was meant to be)?

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#42 of 46 Old 03-21-2012, 04:00 PM
 
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Viagra and Johnson & Johnson, with the Gates Foundation?  Nah.......

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#43 of 46 Old 03-22-2012, 11:28 AM
 
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This thread has been such an interesting read. I am vehemently anti-circumcision, and I had heard about circumcision and ED being connected, but I had not found any studies supporting this (until now!) Though, it always made sense to me that cutting off the most sensitive part of the penis, and combining that with the drop in testosterone that comes with age, WOULD be associated with ED. It just seems like common sense.
Quote:

Originally Posted by japonica View Post

I wish more there was more of this discussion, really. Many of the mothers of circed boys that debate elsewhere contend that their sons made it through the procedure "just fine" and they have no problems whatsoever.

 

But do they have a crystal ball? How will it affect their son's sex life? Will it contribute to ED and other problems later in life? That's what astounds me. He won't be a little kid forever.



I have had the circ debate with other women on other forums, and the problem is that most of them think it is creepy and gross to be concerned with their sons' future sex lives. It's very sad.


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#44 of 46 Old 03-26-2012, 02:51 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xoomxoom View Post

Do you suppose it also might have something to do with the loss of sensitivity (as in the skin is no longer regularly protected and becomes "tougher", dryer, etc.. than it was meant to be)?


This is a small part of it - the glans is supposed to be an internal organ, and when circumcision makes it exposed the surface becomes keratinized and many times thicker and drier than it is supposed to be.

 

HOWEVER, the main reason is that the foreskin is a not only the most sensitive part of a penis, but also a complex structure with neural connections to the brain that allow an intact man to feel where he is at. See:

www.cirp.org/library/anatomy/sorrels_2007/

www.cirp.org/library/normal/
 

 

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#45 of 46 Old 03-01-2013, 01:33 PM
 
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That infant circumcision can result in impotence for men older than 60 - or even younger - is interesting to older men and their wives.  But I know of no real research on this issue.  The point has been made that the tremendous use of Viagra and other phosphodiesterase type 5 (PDE5) inhibitors does suggest American men have a big problem with potence and, the problem gets worse in the older age groups.

Research on the pleasure receptors on the inside of the foreskin
would suggest that complete loss of the foreskin can result in some diminishing of pleasure in sex.   In the late 19th century when some doctors were promoting routine infant circumcision many of them said it would prevent masturbation, knowing something then about the sexual pleasure provided by the foreskin. The frenulum, which is a band of tissue under the glans  that connects to the foreskin, can be left intact in circumcision, but it is often  removed also. 

On http://intactnews.org/node/138/1319461990/acquisition-erectile-dysfunction-circumcision  they say "The perineal nerve runs the length of the penis on the underside and terminates in the frenulum. This “little bridle,” which attaches the underside of penis shaft to the inner foreskin, is one of the most sensitive portions of the penis and is solely innervated by the perineal nerve....Circumcision partially or completely excises the frenulum, always severing the nerve at this point. This variable frenular aspect, and the fact that there are other, compounding risk factors, might explain why not all circumcised men suffer from ED."  In other words, whether the frenulum is removed and the
perineal nerve is cut in circumcision determines to a considerable extent whether impotence will result as the man gets older.

Taylor J.R., Lockwood A.P., Taylor A.J. The prepuce: specialized
mucosa of the penis and its loss to circumcision. British Journal of
Urology, 1996;77:291-295.

Hill G. Foreskin motion generates Meissner corpuscle stimulation. BMJ
2003; Rapid response: 16 December.

Fink KS, Carson CC, DeVellis RF. Adult Circumcision Outcomes Study:
Effect on Erectile Function, Penile Sensitivity, Sexual Activity and
Satisfaction. Journal of Urology 2002;167(5):2113-2116.

They studied 123 men who were circumcised as adults, and "...found
that adult circumcision appears to result in worsened erectile
function, decreased penile sensitivity and improved satisfaction."

While this study has the advantage of men being able to compare their sexual pleasure before and after circumcision, the study has a problem in that the men were circumcised because of medical conditions such as an extremely tight foreskin. Perhaps many of the men reported they were satisfied with their circumcision because it corrected their
painful conditions.

Now, in 2013 not  many people remember that the Baby Boomer males were the first American generation who were almost all circumcised as infants.  Many men born in more rural and small town parts of the country in the thirties were not
circumcised  - because they were born at home, and in Texas and the states of the Great Planes many births at home were attended by the country doctors, who, as a rule, did not circumcise.  Not much is known now about those country doctors.

http://www.cirp.org/library/general/laumann/

Laumann et al (1997) did a survey on 1511 men in 1992 who were then age 18 to 59 years, to get an estimate of the rate of infant circumcision for the years 1933 to 1974.  These men were born from 1933 to 1974.

They say that "..the steady increase in circumcision rates among respondents during much of this period reflects the increase identified by other investigators. The proportion of newborns that were circumcised reached 80% in the years after World War II and climaxed in the mid 1960s. This rise mirrors the increasing prevalence of hospital births."

Their graph shows that in 1933 about thirty-three percent of American men  were circumcised, but by 1941 about sixty-five percent were circumcised and by 1944 the rate rose to around seventy percent. Their graph shows that the rate for hospital births for the entire country rose from about forty-five percent in 1938 to around 85 percent in 1950.

Although they do not show the hospital birth rates by state and by urban verses rural and very small town areas, the rate of people born in hospitals during the thirties and early forties was higher in the urban areas than in rural and very small town areas of the country.  So, since the circumcision rate parallels the hospital birth rate, we can expect that during the period of about 1930 to 1945, the circumcision rate in rural and small town areas was lower than in urban areas.

This data implies that during the period of about 1930 to 1938, circumcision was still not widely practiced in rural and very small town areas, especially in the states of the Great Planes and West Coast.  A man born in the rural areas of the Great Planes and Texas during the thirties, up to perhaps about 1938, would more likely be uncircumcised rather than circumcised, because he was born at home..



 

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#46 of 46 Old 03-02-2013, 08:01 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crosstitchgirl View Post

don't know yet if i am having a little boy or girl but i have made it clear to my hubby that i dont want our son cut. this has become a touchy area with him because he does want our boy cut. his reason , he dont want his boys to look different than him. i try to explain what cutting will do to to our sons later in life if we have it done. i dont have any thing to really back me up thou as i have not really looked up any books or papers showing the effects of cutting. i know in my heart of hearts it does effect men thou . i cant till you how much trouble it must be causing for us in the bedroom at night. any links to some good websites on this subject?

 

Totally unsupportable reason.  Using this argument simply confirms that he is being emotional about something that happened to him that he has not yet figured out how to deal with.  You do not need to do anymore than work throught this fallcious argument with your husband.

 

Take the argument a little further and you can easily see how it falls apart.  Say you DH has a beard.  What does he propose to do so that his son looks like him?  Glue a beard on your infant son?  Shave his beard?  What about his hairy gentials?  Is he going to start shaving?  Wait, what about his hairy under arms?  Better shave them too.  Hold on, your DH is so much taller than his infant son, geeze, how will he handle that?  That is a stumper...  And what if your DH was missing an arm or leg?  Would he even, for a secon,d consider amputating your son's healthy, valuable arm or leg?  I didn't think so.

 

If you DH was really concenred about how your son will react if he sees he is different than your husband, then your husban should restore his foreskin...

 

It makes no sense at all to amputate a healthy body part, that is the most important and critical for sexual feeling and function, for the sake of your DH's feelings and insecurites.  Your DH needs to dig deep and sort out his own feelings on this matter, rather than simply get emotional and use the "two wrongs make a right" argument.

 

Regards

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