how does circumcision cause E.D. in adults? - Mothering Forums
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#1 of 46 Old 02-26-2011, 10:07 PM - Thread Starter
 
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can anyone speak to this assertion?


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#2 of 46 Old 02-27-2011, 06:35 AM
 
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Erectile disfunction is a complex issue that can have many causes, including psychological.  I have not read anything specific in a peer reviewed medical journal regarding erectile disfunction being caused by circumcision. 

 

What I can say, from my reading and experience is that as a circumcised male, sexual pleasure is much harder to achieve, especially past the age of 40.  It is very likely, in my mind, that circumcsion could contribute to any erectile problem, making it harder to acheive a fully erect penis, harder to maintain an erection, and much harder to reach climax.  This is simply because a circumcised man has had the most important part of his sexual anatomy amputated.  If you do not have all your euipment, you have a much harder time doing things.  Just like it takes a whole lot more work and time to chop down a tree with a hatchet compared to a felling axe.

 

Regards

 

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#3 of 46 Old 02-27-2011, 06:48 AM
 
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I have read that, in general, circumcised men will start to experience sexual difficulties approximately ten years earlier than their intact counterparts. This is not surprising since most of the fine touch nerves are located in the foreskin, so the circumcised male has already lost three quarters of his "sensitivity". See www.cirp.org/library/anatomy/Sorrells-2007 . Some would argue saying that premature ejaculation is a common problem in circumcised males - which is true. However this is caused by the severing of the nerves connecting the fine touch receptors of the foreskin and the brain which allows an intact man to get feedback and "regulate" himself. Basicaly sex to a circumcised man is all about the destination, whereas an intact man gets to enjoy the ride first. Secondly, without the protection of the foreskin the glans of a circumcised male gets keratinized and dries out, so that what had been a very thin layer becomes about eight times thicker and buries what few nerves there are (located around the sulcus) www.cirp.org/library/anatomy/cold-mcgrath/ . This is an ongoing process, so that by the time a circumcised man is in his fifties there is often little feeling left.  It is also generaly recognised that a circumcised man will be rougher on his partner  www.cirp.org/library/anatomy/ahara/ .

One only has to look at the tremendous market in North America for Viagra, Cialis etc.  We are bombarded with commercials on TV on an hourly basis. I have not observed the same phenomenom in Europe.

Other articles that may be of interest include  the one written by Christianne Northrup: "How circumcision may be affecting your love life" at www.boystoo.com/medicalconversion.htm .  See also www.drmomma.org/2009/10/how-male--circumcision-impacts-your-love.html  and the article that appeared in Mens Health magazine many years ago: www.noharmm.org/separated.htm .

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#4 of 46 Old 02-27-2011, 07:27 AM
 
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I am thinking of writing a blog on this very subject, so I will definitely be interested to see what people have to say!

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#5 of 46 Old 02-27-2011, 08:32 AM
 
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Another likely contributing factor to circumcision and ED is the fact that circ cuts off blood vessels and forces them to find alternate routes, which probably don't hold up as well as the natural series of arteries and veins in an intact penis.

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#6 of 46 Old 03-01-2011, 09:15 AM
 
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http://www.cirp.org/library/sex_function/shen1/

 

[Erectile function evaluation after adult circumcision]

[Article in Chinese]

Shen Z, Chen S, Zhu C, Wan Q, Chen Z.

Department of Urology,
First Affiliated Hospital, School of Medicine,
Zhejiang University,
Hangzhou, Zhejiang 310003,
China.
shenzhj@mail.hz.zj.cn

OBJECTIVE: To evaluate the erectile function of adults after circumcision.

METHODS: Ninty-five patients were investigated on erectile function by questionnaire before and after circumcision, respectively.

RESULTS: Eighteen patients suffered from mild erectile dysfunction before circumcision, and 28 suffered from mild or moderate erectile dysfunction after circumcision (P = 0.001). Adult circumcision appeared to have resulted in weakened erectile confidence in 33 cases (P = 0.04), difficult insertion in 41 cases (P = 0.03), prolonged intercourse in 31 cases (P = 0.04) and improved satisfaction in 34 cases (P = 0.04).

CONCLUSIONS: Adult circumcision has certain effect on erectile function, to which more importance should be attached.

PMID: 14979200 [PubMed - in process]

[CIRP Comment: This study, unfortunately, was published in Chinese. We have only the English language abstract to guide us. Circumcision is uncommon in China, so these 95 men apparently were circumcised to treat a medical condition with a problem prepuce. Circumcision resulted in erectile dysfunction in 28 (28.4%), weakened erectile confidence in 33 (34.7%) difficult insertion in 41 (43.1%), prolonged intercourse in 31 (32.6%), and improved satisfaction in 34 (35.7%). It is likely that the inproved satisfaction resulted from being freed of the medical condition and the problem prepuce, not from the circumcision. This study tends to confirm the earlier findings of Fink et al.]

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#7 of 46 Old 03-27-2011, 04:30 PM
 
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A small number of infants have a small artery in their penis cut during circumcision. Its seems possible to me these boys could have an increased risk of ED in later life.

 

Circumcision universally reduces blow flow in the penis. Many blood vessels have been removed or damaged. The erect circumcised penis is shorter and narrower in girth. It seems likely the chance of ED in later life are increased.

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#8 of 46 Old 04-11-2011, 05:23 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hakunangovi View Post

I have read that, in general, circumcised men will start to experience sexual difficulties approximately ten years earlier than their intact counterparts. This is not surprising since most of the fine touch nerves are located in the foreskin, so the circumcised male has already lost three quarters of his "sensitivity". See www.cirp.org/library/anatomy/Sorrells-2007 . Some would argue saying that premature ejaculation is a common problem in circumcised males - which is true. However this is caused by the severing of the nerves connecting the fine touch receptors of the foreskin and the brain which allows an intact man to get feedback and "regulate" himself. Basicaly sex to a circumcised man is all about the destination, whereas an intact man gets to enjoy the ride first. Secondly, without the protection of the foreskin the glans of a circumcised male gets keratinized and dries out, so that what had been a very thin layer becomes about eight times thicker and buries what few nerves there are (located around the sulcus) www.cirp.org/library/anatomy/cold-mcgrath/ . This is an ongoing process, so that by the time a circumcised man is in his fifties there is often little feeling left.  It is also generaly recognised that a circumcised man will be rougher on his partner  www.cirp.org/library/anatomy/ahara/ .

One only has to look at the tremendous market in North America for Viagra, Cialis etc.  We are bombarded with commercials on TV on an hourly basis. I have not observed the same phenomenom in Europe.

Other articles that may be of interest include  the one written by Christianne Northrup: "How circumcision may be affecting your love life" at www.boystoo.com/medicalconversion.htm .  See also www.drmomma.org/2009/10/how-male--circumcision-impacts-your-love.html  and the article that appeared in Mens Health magazine many years ago: www.noharmm.org/separated.htm .


exactly, if you can hardly feel your penis why would you get aroused!?

 

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#9 of 46 Old 07-17-2011, 09:35 PM
 
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Well said!

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#10 of 46 Old 07-17-2011, 09:40 PM
 
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And were you aware that the sale of artificial lubricants is a big business in the U.S?  In places where circumcision is not the norm, this is not the case.  Coincidence?  I think not.  That is because an unaltered penis has it's own natural means to keep the glans moistened and sensitive, so no need for anything artificial.  I think nature had it all figured out and humans do not have the right to interfere.

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#11 of 46 Old 07-17-2011, 09:44 PM
 
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And not only that,  the foreskin of a newborn baby is actually attached to the infant glans and nature "un attaches" it usually by age 5, but it can be as late as the teen years.  Do we really believe that "cutting" these delicately designed genitals is a good thing to do to babies?  NO.

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#12 of 46 Old 07-17-2011, 09:47 PM
 
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Good for you.  You are one of the lucky ones!

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#13 of 46 Old 07-18-2011, 05:45 AM
 
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The mechanism is unknown, but the association is strong. Here's the abstract for an article I wrote that will be published in the next few months. Like the Shen article, is shows the same link from circumcision to ED. ED is pshychosomatic, that is, having psychological and physiological components. 

 

 

Alexithymia and Circumcision Trauma: A Preliminary Investigation

Background: This preliminary study investigates what role early trauma might have in alexithymia acquisition for adults by controlling for male circumcision. Methods: Three hundred self-selected men were administered the Toronto Twenty-Item Alexithymia Scale checklist and a personal history questionnaire. Results: The circumcised men had age-adjusted alexithymia scores 19.9 percent higher than the intact men; were 1.57 times more likely to have high alexithymia scores; were 2.30 times less likely to have low alexithymia scores; had higher prevalence of two of the three alexithymia factors (difficulty identifying feelings and difficulty describing feelings); and were 4.53 times more likely to use an erectile dysfunction drug. Conclusion: Alexithymia in this population of adult men is statistically significant for having experienced circumcision trauma and for erectile dysfunction drug use.

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#14 of 46 Old 07-18-2011, 12:21 PM
 
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As a 65 year old man, I can say from bitter experience that an older cut penis is a lot less usefull.  Mine is good only for urination, as it can take an hour to reach an orgasm, this has been getting worse since my 40s.  I realise that as people get older, their bodies become less effective, and the lost foreskin results in a much less sensitive penis as the Meissner corpuscles which are so important for satisfactory intercourse, are lost.  Add to this older woman's drier vagina, and you have a combination of deterioration.

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#15 of 46 Old 07-18-2011, 03:26 PM
 
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Very interesting information.  Where will this article be published?

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#16 of 46 Old 07-18-2011, 03:36 PM
 
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That is unfortunate.  Again I ask, why is it that men are so eager to do this to their sons?  Also, at least there is some help for vaginal dryness and some erectile/orgasm problems and that is testosterone therapy for men and bio identical hormone therapy for women.  The problem is that even if you have a good libido with the help of testosterone, the effects of missing foreskin and the less sensitive glans, creates a situation just as you describe.  I don't like the word "deterioration" ...... it just sounds so bleak.  I just wonder what the solution is?  just give up?  Settle for less, or nothing?  Ignore it?  Put the energy in your relationship to some other use?  I found the website, NORM (National Organization of Restoring Men), last night and I hope there are some solutions to be found there.

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#17 of 46 Old 07-19-2011, 05:25 AM
 
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See: Bollinger D, Van Howe, RS. Alexithymia and circumcision trauma: A preliminary investigation. Int J Men’s Health,.2011;10(2) (in press).

 

 

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#18 of 46 Old 07-19-2011, 12:12 PM
 
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Thanks, I look forward to reading your article!

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#19 of 46 Old 07-19-2011, 02:11 PM
 
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It is true that vaginal lubricants CAN help especially temporarilly, but none that I can buy are as good as the natural action of an intact penis.  KY Jelly is often recommended but it is after all intended for inserting catheters etc., not repeated thrusting by a dry penis for as long as it takes to achieve orgasm. in my case up to an hour.  My wife has dried out long before then and I've become numb, not to mention the strain on the rest of our bodies.

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#20 of 46 Old 07-20-2011, 02:57 PM
 
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I still believe in, where there's a will, there's a way....but it does take two to make it happen.  If you have already given up, that is your choice, but I think it is sad.

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#21 of 46 Old 07-20-2011, 03:07 PM
 
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You make a lot of sense with your statements.  I think one reason that no one is interested in doing such studies on older men, is that with most older men deficient in the male hormone, testosterone, there most likely is not the interest in doing the study!  If more older men were interested in such a study, it would have been done already.  Lacking such a study, your points make a lot of sense, since those are actually facts about the male sexual response in aging men.  What is sad is that when talking about the after effects of cutting a young baby boy or child, no one is talking about what can happen when he gets older, only that oh, it won't affect his sexual function as a grown male.  This is like saying well, if he can at least function, produce children, and get some pleasure out of it..... he works just fine!  I wonder why no one wants to hear the truth about how being cut actually affects the performance of his natural penis?  And how it just might affect his female partner?  That is the cruelty of it.  Yet people still defend it!

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#22 of 46 Old 07-20-2011, 07:01 PM
 
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As noted on the NORM site, there is foreskin restoration. It's better than doing nothing for the circumcised male.

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#23 of 46 Old 07-25-2011, 02:11 PM
 
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I certainly hope that my sexlife has not petered out permanently, but as you say, restoring it is a two-person project.  I keep trying to improve things, manual tugging is my main technique at present, tape tensioning devices depend on the tape holding on skin which is not perfectly dry, and I look forward to being able to use a tapeless method in due course.  I don't know if a topical cream to stimulate the few remaining nerve endings would be available.

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#24 of 46 Old 07-26-2011, 07:27 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mare54 View Post

You make a lot of sense with your statements.  I think one reason that no one is interested in doing such studies on older men, is that with most older men deficient in the male hormone, testosterone, there most likely is not the interest in doing the study!  If more older men were interested in such a study, it would have been done already.  Lacking such a study, your points make a lot of sense, since those are actually facts about the male sexual response in aging men.  What is sad is that when talking about the after effects of cutting a young baby boy or child, no one is talking about what can happen when he gets older, only that oh, it won't affect his sexual function as a grown male.  This is like saying well, if he can at least function, produce children, and get some pleasure out of it..... he works just fine!  I wonder why no one wants to hear the truth about how being cut actually affects the performance of his natural penis?  And how it just might affect his female partner?  That is the cruelty of it.  Yet people still defend it!


Actualy I think there would be a lot of interest in a study, but in our culture of sexual prudery, most people are too embarrassed to talk about it.  I think that for many older men, it is not so much a lack of testosterone and a lack of desire, but a lack of feeling and sensitivity that results in ever increasing difficulty reaching orgasm.  E.D. is only a part of the equation.  Delayed or absent ejaculation is the other part.

 

Mare, you are right to sound incredulous that the custom of circumcision is still defended by so many, but I put that down to ignorance (being uninformed), since the medical community has been, and still is very reluctant to tell the truth and inform their clients of the facts relating to the consequences of cutting off foreskins. It is a very lucrative part of their business.

 

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#25 of 46 Old 07-26-2011, 03:41 PM
 
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At least you are doing something, rather than just giving up and settling.  But you are right that it takes a team effort, and in a team, there are two people who are involved and really care about each other.  I think it is a real shame for anyone to give up on solving a problem and especially if it could make a big difference in their relationship.  I just read that the most reported cases of sexual dysfunction (certainly many are not) are  of men who were born between 1945 and 1965, when the circumcision rate was at an all time high of 80%!  I think there is a clear correlation between these two facts.  I also read that the circumcision rate in the U.S. is about 32% now, and falling which is very good news.  IT's all about education and without being informed, this barbaric, unfair practice will continue to be done on helpless little baby boys around the country.  And Keith:  there is a product out there that is available called "Manhood", which is a cover for the penis, which is worn most of the day and night which claims it can help restore the sensitivity of the glans.  It's not expensive and it's endorsed by NORM.  Anything is worth a try!  Good Luck.

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#26 of 46 Old 07-26-2011, 03:50 PM
 
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Unfortunately, aging does have it's bummers.  One of them is the drop off of testosterone for men which lowers their capacity for sexual performance as well as their libido.  It doesn't have to be that way, because it is an easy thing to do, for a man to get testosterone therapy today and it is very effective.  But, you are right the other side of the story is the desensitizing of the glans on a man with a circumcision.  There is more information out there about this now than ever before.  For a sexual organ that is supposed to by nature, be hidden, where it keeps it's moisture and is protected from chaffing from clothes, etc., circumcision alters that to be outside of the skin.  Very un natural and the effects of this on older men is undeniable!  Fortunately men can restore foreskin, but it is a tedious job and takes a long time.  Many men won't have the desire to go through all of that, but from what I have read, it is very successful.  The book, The Joy of Un circumcising, is a very informative book, and the part called "Mens Voices", is enough to bring you to tears!  I highly recommend it.

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#27 of 46 Old 08-08-2011, 08:15 PM
 
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The frenulum is the key to it all. Cut that bad boy off and you're cutting off the part of the body scientifically proven to be fundamental to erection, ejaculation and urinary continence. Here's the story.

 

Sorrells et al (2007) showed that circumcision ablates the most sensitive parts of the penis, this may or may not include the frenulum depending on the nature of the cut but it is nonetheless a highly sensitive part. Sensitivity is only half the answer, what really matters is how that part is innervated.

 

Yang and Bradley (1999) showed that the frenulum is innervated almost exclusively by the perineal nerve, not the dorsal penile nerve - see figure 1. Where does the perineal nerve go?

 

Uchio et al (1999) showed that the two nerve routes are independent and reference other works to state:

“The motor efferents of the perineal nerve innervate the pelvic floor musculature, including the bulbocavernosus muscle.[8] The contribution of the perineal nerve to urinary continence and ejaculations have been well described.[4], [9] ... The frenulum, which is innervated by the perineal nerve has been shown clinically to require a lower threshold for induction of erection and ejaculation,[12] and histologically to have higher numbers of genital receptors than other areas of the penis.[13]"

 

If you need more convincing Apostolidis and Fowler (2002) presented a case report of a guy whose perineal nerve was damaged during vasectomy - his dorsal nerve was completely fine, and yet "The patient reported the absence of reflexogenic and morning erections but preserved psychogenic erections, decreased ejaculatory force and orgasmic ability. He had also had secondary depression"

 

I've been arguing about this with urologists for years for my own case. I finally found one that believed me but of course there was nothing he could do for me. If you can use the results of my investigations to publicise these medical facts and stop people circumcising then please do.

 

Uchio's references:

4. Dick, H. C., Bradley, W. E., Scott, F. B. and Timm, G. W.: Pudendal sexual reflexes: electrophysiologic investigations. Urology, 3: 376, 1973.

8. Takahashi, M. and Sato, T.: Innervation of the anterior perineal muscles and its morphological consideration. Anat. Anz., 158: 65, 1985.

9. Shafik, A.: Perineal nerve stimulation for urinary sphincter control. Experimental study. Urol. Res., 22: 151, 1994.

12. Sarkarati, M., Rossier, A. and Fam, B.: Experience in vibratory and electroejaculation techniques in spinal cord injury patients: a preliminary report. J. Urol., 138: 59, 1987.

13. Halata, Z. and Munger, B.: The neuroanatomical basis for the protopathic sensibility of the human glans penis. Brain Res., 371: 205, 1986.

 

 

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#28 of 46 Old 08-09-2011, 06:07 AM
 
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Steve, That's as good a hypothesis as I've heard. From what I've read so far, reading between the lines, both Yang and Uchio used circumcised men for subjects. Is that true? It would certainly skew their results. Nonetheless, they seem to have found a link even using mutilated penises. The newest of the articles you cite regarding the perineal nerve is 2002. I have to wonder what has been done since?  

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#29 of 46 Old 08-09-2011, 03:35 PM
 
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Thank you for all that information. I asked my husband why more men are not speaking out about these things, and he told me, well men are trained from little boys not to cry.  So I guess that means that they are also trained to refrain from complaining about these things and most of them, just plain don't talk about it.

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#30 of 46 Old 08-10-2011, 10:44 AM
 
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don't know yet if i am having a little boy or girl but i have made it clear to my hubby that i dont want our son cut. this has become a touchy area with him because he does want our boy cut. his reason , he dont want his boys to look different than him. i try to explain what cutting will do to to our sons later in life if we have it done. i dont have any thing to really back me up thou as i have not really looked up any books or papers showing the effects of cutting. i know in my heart of hearts it does effect men thou . i cant till you how much trouble it must be causing for us in the bedroom at night. any links to some good websites on this subject?

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