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#1 of 32 Old 03-21-2012, 09:55 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Deleting due to Internet privacy issues. Thank you for understanding.

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#2 of 32 Old 03-21-2012, 12:17 PM
 
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FWIW I think you handled it very well. hug2.gif

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#3 of 32 Old 03-22-2012, 01:41 PM
 
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hug.gif It really sucks but you did all you could.

 
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#4 of 32 Old 03-22-2012, 01:45 PM
 
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FWIW I think you handled it very well. hug2.gif



I agree.


N, wife to my goofball K partners.gif and mamma to my EC grad D (July 2010) and my new little love S (May 2013).  Exploring the uncharted territory of tandem nursing with my two boys.

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#5 of 32 Old 03-23-2012, 10:41 AM
 
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people like you are changing popular thought on this subject.    when i was pregnant with #1 (girl) i probably would have circ'ed because "everyone else did".    i just didnt think about it.

 

but then i found mothering, got educated, and for baby #2 (boy) I knew enough to say Heck No!  to painful, unnecessary, cosmetic surgery on an infant.  An open sore sitting in excrement?!?  yikes2.gif  That is the least hygenic thing Ive heard of!!! 

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#6 of 32 Old 03-23-2012, 11:39 AM
 
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At least you tried. I did this same thing with my sister. She couldn't watch the video. I said "If you can't even watch the video or be in the same room with your defensless child, then why put him through it?" No Answer. She ended up circumcising him anyway and I suspect her pediatrician was downplaying my efforts. I ended up being "the mean one" in my family who "couldn't mind my own business". Her son is now almost 2 years old, and my sister and I started talking again. We can't talk about this subject though. She tries to justify it with such a passion. I am familiar with that passion but it is for the wrong reasons greensad.gif


 


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#7 of 32 Old 03-23-2012, 01:40 PM
 
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Unfortunately Sarah's personal opinions clouded the facts. We don't live in a anti-foreskin world being most men are intact and here in America more boys are being left intact. I wonder how she would react if her son ever confronts her and decides to restore.

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#8 of 32 Old 03-23-2012, 01:48 PM
 
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hug.gif It really sucks but you did all you could.

I agree!hug2.gif

And I want to add being that we are here at MDC and all.. I spent nine months eating the right foods, avoiding harmful stuff of any kind and worked like heck to have a natural, drug free childbirth............ after all that I'd damage my new baby for life? What are people thinking!?
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#9 of 32 Old 03-23-2012, 06:36 PM
 
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i just remembered a  story about my circ venting.  my SIL (DH's sister...  I dont get along with any of his family very well.  None would even try to BF as it was "gross")

 

So, SIL had a boy in 2007.   MIL called me and said "The baby is great!  Just had his circumcision and it didnt hurt a bit, he is sleeping and quiet."

 

I really didnt mean to be rude.  I said with out thinking, "Asleep?!  Poor kid passed out!  You would have too, if some one had just cut half your penis off,"  

 

 

 

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#10 of 32 Old 03-26-2012, 02:57 AM
 
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Originally Posted by lauriebeth View Post

i just remembered a  story about my circ venting.  my SIL (DH's sister...  I dont get along with any of his family very well.  None would even try to BF as it was "gross")

 

So, SIL had a boy in 2007.   MIL called me and said "The baby is great!  Just had his circumcision and it didnt hurt a bit, he is sleeping and quiet."

 

I really didnt mean to be rude.  I said with out thinking, "Asleep?!  Poor kid passed out!  You would have too, if some one had just cut half your penis off,"  

 

 

 



I love what you said - hopefully it made her think.

 

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#11 of 32 Old 04-01-2012, 03:10 PM
 
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My pet peeve is when people say "Oh I did the research but we are still going to circ our son" BULL if you did any decent research you'd do just the opposite and leave him intact. I also hate the "he needs to look like daddy" "I don't have a penis so I'm letting DH,daddy make the circ decision", "I don't want other boys laughing at him","no woman will even want him" excuses.

I work in a childcare center I care for newborns to 2yr olds out of approx. 50 kids I work with only one is intact.


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#12 of 32 Old 04-02-2012, 09:06 AM
 
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I think people who claim they "did their research" simply Googled "circumcision", came up with one or two pro-circumcision sites that supported the opnion they already had, and called it "research".

 

I agree that anyone who looks into this with an open mind (and many who start out in favor of circumcision) learn enough to decide to leave well enough alone.

 

I've seen many people start out strongly in favor of circumcision look into it and decide to leave their boys intact. In my 15 or so years on circumcision debate and informaiton boards, I have never seen a parent start out want to leave their son intact, learn all they can (or even research a little bit), and come away wanting to circumcise.

 

There is hope, as long as we keep planting those seeds!


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#13 of 32 Old 04-02-2012, 06:17 PM
 
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I think you did an amazing job putting yourself out there and sticking to what you said.  And to stay true and offer the information on minimizing the pain- it was a truly hard gesture, but one with integrity. I hope nothing should go wrong with this persons child but you did plant many seeds-- not only will this woman eventually have to live through her child's procedure but I'm sure the subject will come up again for her.

 

Perhaps she will act differently to mothers that are questioning the issue - and remember your information instead of instantly promoting circumcision

Perhaps someone else she knows will have a son with adhesions or other circumcision and she will recognize more of what you were trying to say than she would have otherwise.

 

Vent away. How very sad for that little boy.


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#14 of 32 Old 04-02-2012, 08:08 PM
 
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She sounds like an idiot. Those are the most invalid, vain reason I have ever heard! She could at least give some facts...personal experience, etc.

 

I wouldn't say people who have their sons circumcised are idiots but I certainly understand your passion. I am over 40 and I remember a time when there was a lot of press about negative findings for circumcised populations...studies with high transmission rates for HPV virus which commonly causes cancer in women, and studies with high AIDS rates, etc. I had heard about it in college in the early 90s, and when we found out we were having a boy in 2002, my MIL told me about it too. 

 

I remember being on the fence about it back then in '02 but ultimately decided to have my son circumcised. There were lots of reasons we decided to have it done...for one, my husband was pro-circ due to his upbringing (I think it was like a status symbol in his culture). I had some friends have problems with their foreskin requiring surgery, and condom use can be difficult for some as well. That said, there's a good chance I would leave my baby intact if I had another boy. It's one of those things...if I knew then what I know now....

 

If someone doesn't read Mothering Magazine or keep up with alternative news, they won't know much about any studies that support leaving boys intact. Most doctors in the states haven't a clue about circumcised babies. Doctors tell parents to pull the skin back and expose the head when cleaning. I worked in a day care with several uncircumcised babies and I was told to clean them in this manner with every change...even though I read that this was the wrong way to care for an uncircumcised baby. 

 

I think with the changes in healthcare in this country, we will see more uncircumcised babies. I imagine that the push to not circumcise (because our government is not going to want to pay for this elective surgery) will bring some new, more positive studies in favor of leaving boys intact into the mainstream media, and doctors will start to get on board too. 

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#15 of 32 Old 04-03-2012, 12:07 PM
 
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Wow her reasons are so... immature. Ugly? Seriously? How superficial can you be?! 

I don't get those reasons; I grew up in Europe so intact is normal to me so I just can't wrap my head around that argument. 

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#16 of 32 Old 04-03-2012, 01:21 PM
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You're not judgmental, harsh, or rude, you are right. 

 

Really sad. 


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#17 of 32 Old 04-03-2012, 03:15 PM
 
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I just want to remind everyone that venting is fine, but we do not allow bashing. 


 
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#18 of 32 Old 04-04-2012, 06:44 PM
 
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Just realized there were lots of typos here! Meant to say uncirc instead of circ in a couple of places...but I guess you can figure that out!
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmarroq View Post

She sounds like an idiot. Those are the most invalid, vain reason I have ever heard! She could at least give some facts...personal experience, etc.

 

I wouldn't say people who have their sons circumcised are idiots but I certainly understand your passion. I am over 40 and I remember a time when there was a lot of press about negative findings for circumcised populations...studies with high transmission rates for HPV virus which commonly causes cancer in women, and studies with high AIDS rates, etc. I had heard about it in college in the early 90s, and when we found out we were having a boy in 2002, my MIL told me about it too. 

 

I remember being on the fence about it back then in '02 but ultimately decided to have my son circumcised. There were lots of reasons we decided to have it done...for one, my husband was pro-circ due to his upbringing (I think it was like a status symbol in his culture). I had some friends have problems with their foreskin requiring surgery, and condom use can be difficult for some as well. That said, there's a good chance I would leave my baby intact if I had another boy. It's one of those things...if I knew then what I know now....

 

If someone doesn't read Mothering Magazine or keep up with alternative news, they won't know much about any studies that support leaving boys intact. Most doctors in the states haven't a clue about circumcised babies. Doctors tell parents to pull the skin back and expose the head when cleaning. I worked in a day care with several uncircumcised babies and I was told to clean them in this manner with every change...even though I read that this was the wrong way to care for an uncircumcised baby. 

 

I think with the changes in healthcare in this country, we will see more uncircumcised babies. I imagine that the push to not circumcise (because our government is not going to want to pay for this elective surgery) will bring some new, more positive studies in favor of leaving boys intact into the mainstream media, and doctors will start to get on board too. 



 

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#19 of 32 Old 04-05-2012, 05:13 PM
 
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Oh you are preaching to the choir this is an issue that rocks me to my core. A lot of moms just dont know any other way except for circumcision and they dont understand the consequences or that it is t a good thing to do. I have a lot of sympathy for those women and I dont feel the need to condemn them. On the other hand there is women who someone like us have provides sound evidence that it permanently hurts their child etc... Etc...and then with knowledge they still choose to do it. Those people piss me off to know end. They absolutely disgust me and ive reached a point where the let people have there opinions thing doesnt fly for me. Why because its not an opinion and when you willfully and permanently hurt your child and have knowledge of that ...well screw you its abuse and thats how i really feel about it.

Ive begun not to associate with people like that it really makes me sick. I have a friend that i shared all the information and evidence with and she said well i think im gonna do it anyway ... I mean everyone does it. Yeah, well shame on her ... BAD parenting.


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#20 of 32 Old 04-30-2012, 01:41 PM
 
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Circumcision is the American insanity.  I sent a buddy, otherwise extremely intelligent and broad minded, a ton of info and even assured him I would not ask about his decision.  When his son was born he texted me in the middle of the night with the news.  I replied, "Congratulations, hope mom and baby are doing fine."  The next text from him was "Sorry, we just circumcised him."  He saw me a week or so later and hugged me and said "Sorry."  I replied, "Don't apologize to me, apologize to your son."  He replied,"He'll love it."  I replied, "We'll see."

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#21 of 32 Old 04-30-2012, 02:59 PM
 
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Circumcision is the American insanity.  I sent a buddy, otherwise extremely intelligent and broad minded, a ton of info and even assured him I would not ask about his decision.  When his son was born he texted me in the middle of the night with the news.  I replied, "Congratulations, hope mom and baby are doing fine."  The next text from him was "Sorry, we just circumcised him."  He saw me a week or so later and hugged me and said "Sorry."  I replied, "Don't apologize to me, apologize to your son."  He replied,"He'll love it."  I replied, "We'll see."


I so agree. With the insanity thing.
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#22 of 32 Old 05-02-2012, 10:20 AM
 
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I think you handled it as gracefully as possible. I have no poker face when it comes to situations like that. Case in point: I was recently at a friend's house to meet her brand new baby and just as UPS rang, we both smelled a poopy dipe. So I told her I was happy to change him while she went down to the door. Well, I went to change him, and... circ'd. I would be yelling too if I pooped on such raw, tender skin! bawling.gif  So I stood there and changed him, apologizing and crying (quietly). I was as gentle as possible, but seriously, there is no way that doesn't really hurt. As soon as she was back upstairs, I just mumbled an apology about having to go so soon, beautiful baby, etc and got the hell out of there. She is somewhat crunchy in many ways, so that hadn't even crossed my mind as being on the table... shake.gif  I have no idea what people are thinking sometimes.

 

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#23 of 32 Old 06-02-2012, 05:56 PM
 
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My pet peeve is when people say "Oh I did the research but we are still going to circ our son" BULL if you did any decent research you'd do just the opposite and leave him intact.

 

Yes, there are many who claim to have done their research but many of them haven't.

 

I also hate the "he needs to look like daddy" "I don't have a penis so I'm letting DH,daddy make the circ decision", "I don't want other boys laughing at him","no woman will even want him" excuses.

 

When I first joined this issue, none of those justifications were used.  The ones that were used were quickly debunked so they evolved and started looking for justifications that couldn't be rationally and logically refuted.  The first two are this.  They think no one can refute them but we can and do.  Eventually they'll realize this and find more to justify.  They won't work either.

 

 

 

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#24 of 32 Old 06-02-2012, 06:51 PM
 
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After much deliberation and dragging of feet...we did have DS circ'ed.  We tried to find the best pediatric urologist (not just a random OB) and we were there soothing him and holding his hands during the entire procedure.  We tried to make sure he had the best pain management possible.  I nursed him immediately afterward...and we cried, and cried, and cried. bawling.gif

 

It was the most horrific experience.  I fully regret it.  I should have done more research (beyond cursory web searches) to find a video of the actual procedure - I can't describe how awful it was to be there and watch how bad this procedure actually is (even under the best of circumstances!).  I wish I had had the guts to scream, "STOP!" and grab DS and run.

 

In searching for support from friends and family, we found none.  I wish I had found MDC that early on and felt like I had a community supporting us, which we totally lacked IRL.

 

About those "reasons" - first, the "boys need to look like their dad" argument is just sadly cyclical - if everyone has to be circ'ed to look like their dad - where does it end????  Someone has to be brave enough to stop the cycle, so a natural man can have a natural boy and then they can look alike. thumb.gif

 

That said, I'm ashamed to admit that I was with one un-circ'ed man and was completely disturbed by it.  I don't think this is solely a lack of character on my part, though - rather, it was more like culture shock.  I had never, ever, ever seen this.  I didn't know why it looked that way, how it "worked" - I was totally freaked out (probably like some girls are when they first see one, period).  So, I'm not saying this is right - the *natural* human body should be, well, natural!  But when it's not the social norm, women *can* easily develop negative viewpoints of it, and, with good (if misled) intentions, extrapolate their experiences to future partners for their son.  If those women really understood what the procedure was like...if it wasn't done behind closed doors and minimized by society...it would be different.  If more babies aren't subjected to it and grow into men that these women see more often - it will change.

 

I also do happen to have several friends who knew un-circ'ed boys who were teased mercilessly, so that is not just a "made up" reason.  It happens.  As do boys who suffer infections from improper hygiene, and boys who attempt to circ themselves to match others.  It happens (you can argue the rarity, but it's out there).  Like the sexual attractiveness reason, there IS something to it, so dismissing those reasons flat out isn't helpful.  The thing to drive home is that when those reasons are stacked up against the awful truth of what the "procedure" really is...they are grains of sand next to the Empire State building.

 

The idea that it is essentially performing plastic surgery on an infant didn't hit home until I had my sweet baby boy home, raw and bleeding, with pen marks on him...I completely lost it, bawling and bawling and apologizing to him. mecry.gifThat should never happen to a poor, defenseless baby.  No matter what the reason, what the fear is - it's just not worth it.


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#25 of 32 Old 06-03-2012, 03:14 PM
 
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I also do happen to have several friends who knew un-circ'ed boys who were teased mercilessly, so that is not just a "made up" reason.  It happens.  As do boys who suffer infections from improper hygiene, and boys who attempt to circ themselves to match others.  It happens (you can argue the rarity, but it's out there).  Like the sexual attractiveness reason, there IS something to it, so dismissing those reasons flat out isn't helpful.  The thing to drive home is that when those reasons are stacked up against the awful truth of what the "procedure" really is...they are grains of sand next to the Empire State building.

 

Although: the fewer boys that are circumcised, the less any of these things you mention happen. Honestly, my brother is intact, and he was born in 1989. We live in Canada, so about half his friends are uncircumcised and the women he runs into are quite used to it. He has honestly--I'm not making this up--not heard a word of complaint or surprise about his penis, not from his friends, not from his many sex partners. So while you say that some women really do recoil at an intact penis (as you did), I'll have to add that they won't, not for long.

 

And will intact boys be "teased mercilessly" in a roomful of other intact boys? Sure, but not about their penises.

 

So you see, the best thing to do to combat these reasons is just to keep your sons intact, because the more that are, the fewer social problems they encounter (if any).

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#26 of 32 Old 06-03-2012, 03:23 PM
 
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Although: the fewer boys that are circumcised, the less any of these things you mention happen. Honestly, my brother is intact, and he was born in 1989. We live in Canada, so about half his friends are uncircumcised and the women he runs into are quite used to it. He has honestly--I'm not making this up--not heard a word of complaint or surprise about his penis, not from his friends, not from his many sex partners. So while you say that some women really do recoil at an intact penis (as you did), I'll have to add that they won't, not for long.

 

So you see, the best thing to do to combat these reasons is just to keep your sons intact, because the more that are, the fewer social problems they encounter (if any).

 

Exactly. thumb.gif That's why I said, "If more babies aren't subjected to it and grow into men that these women see more often - it will change."

 

I'm glad to hear your brother hasn't had any issues with it.  I hope it does change!

 

(oh, the boys teasing him thing - that actually was about not being circumcised - really.  I actually have multiple examples of that where I grew up in the States, because in my area, circ is by far the norm - of course, those boys *usually* weren't teased quite as bad [because there was a speck of cultural sensitivity] as the boys who WERE circ'ed and leaning like the tower of Pisa.  Boys are boys, and can be cruel - not endorsing any of it, just my experience.).


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#27 of 32 Old 06-03-2012, 04:36 PM
 
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I haven't read all of the posts, and this may not be a popular statement, but that would be one less friend that I had. Not because of her decision, but because of how shallow it is.

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#28 of 32 Old 06-04-2012, 11:25 AM
 
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Just wanted to say - bravo to you for offering the information, and declining to become confrontational about it. I know others feel differently, but I have really NEVER seen anyone change their mind about any issue (especially one that is very emotionally charged) because someone keeps hounding them. You offered information, and you stuck to your promise to not get in their face about it. They may not have made the decision you would have hoped for, but now they have something to percolate in the backs of their minds. And they know that if they have questions in the future, they can count on you to provide information and not be in their face. So go ahead and vent - I would be frustrated, too. But keep up the good ambassadorship!


Monkey (30) + Pirate (28) = a forever family (5/10) - Baby Bird (8/12), our long-awaited first, and one (9/13 @ 7w 6d); PCOS
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#29 of 32 Old 06-07-2012, 08:01 AM
 
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Originally Posted by pickle18 View Post

After much deliberation and dragging of feet...we did have DS circ'ed.  We tried to find the best pediatric urologist (not just a random OB) and we were there soothing him and holding his hands during the entire procedure.  We tried to make sure he had the best pain management possible.  I nursed him immediately afterward...and we cried, and cried, and cried. bawling.gif

 

It was the most horrific experience.  I fully regret it.  I should have done more research (beyond cursory web searches) to find a video of the actual procedure - I can't describe how awful it was to be there and watch how bad this procedure actually is (even under the best of circumstances!).  I wish I had had the guts to scream, "STOP!" and grab DS and run.

 

In searching for support from friends and family, we found none.  I wish I had found MDC that early on and felt like I had a community supporting us, which we totally lacked IRL.

 

About those "reasons" - first, the "boys need to look like their dad" argument is just sadly cyclical - if everyone has to be circ'ed to look like their dad - where does it end????  Someone has to be brave enough to stop the cycle, so a natural man can have a natural boy and then they can look alike. thumb.gif

 

That said, I'm ashamed to admit that I was with one un-circ'ed man and was completely disturbed by it.  I don't think this is solely a lack of character on my part, though - rather, it was more like culture shock.  I had never, ever, ever seen this.  I didn't know why it looked that way, how it "worked" - I was totally freaked out (probably like some girls are when they first see one, period).  So, I'm not saying this is right - the *natural* human body should be, well, natural!  But when it's not the social norm, women *can* easily develop negative viewpoints of it, and, with good (if misled) intentions, extrapolate their experiences to future partners for their son.  If those women really understood what the procedure was like...if it wasn't done behind closed doors and minimized by society...it would be different.  If more babies aren't subjected to it and grow into men that these women see more often - it will change.

 

I also do happen to have several friends who knew un-circ'ed boys who were teased mercilessly, so that is not just a "made up" reason.  It happens.  As do boys who suffer infections from improper hygiene, and boys who attempt to circ themselves to match others.  It happens (you can argue the rarity, but it's out there).  Like the sexual attractiveness reason, there IS something to it, so dismissing those reasons flat out isn't helpful.  The thing to drive home is that when those reasons are stacked up against the awful truth of what the "procedure" really is...they are grains of sand next to the Empire State building.

 

The idea that it is essentially performing plastic surgery on an infant didn't hit home until I had my sweet baby boy home, raw and bleeding, with pen marks on him...I completely lost it, bawling and bawling and apologizing to him. mecry.gifThat should never happen to a poor, defenseless baby.  No matter what the reason, what the fear is - it's just not worth it.

 

 

Pickle18,  Thank you for having the courage to post your story.  I suspect many have had a similar experience, and feel the same way, but few of them have the guts to admit it.

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#30 of 32 Old 07-03-2012, 01:44 PM
 
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Sharon71 wrote:  "My pet peeve is when people say "Oh I did the research but we are still going to circ our son" BULL if you did any decent research you'd do just the opposite and leave him intact."

 

Yes, they have found that they are expected to have done their research and use it as a shield.  Their actions show they have not done their research.

 

It may be that they have done the research when they searched "circumcision" and clicked on two or three sites that appeared to agree with them.  That's not research, just finding justifications.

 

 

 

I also hate the "he needs to look like daddy"

 

This is the fall back.   They think you can not debate that.

 

 

"I don't have a penis so I'm letting DH,daddy make the circ decision",

 

Another fall back they think you don't have an answer for.

 

 

"I don't want other boys laughing at him"

 

This is a very old and very outdated justification.  The 2009 infant circumcision rate was 32.5% so it will be her circumcised kid that will be made fun of.  This also clarifies that she did not do the research she claims to have done.

 

 

 

"no woman will even want him" excuses.

 

Another out dated belief.  Women of his age group will not have many choices among circumcised men/boys because there will be few of them.  All women of his age group are going to eventually have to accept intact men just like American men have to accept intact women or get no sex.

 

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