We've been invited to a Bris... - Mothering Forums
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
#1 of 51 Old 03-02-2005, 02:12 AM - Thread Starter
 
burke-a-bee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Mallville
Posts: 936
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
We've been invited to Bris by my husband's boss. I don't really feel comfortable going. We did not circumcise any of our sons and my husband is uncut as well. If we did go, what should we expect? I am not familiar with any of this so I need your help with what to do and how to handle it. My husband says that it is not that big of a deal and it is a long religious tradition. I am the one squirming at the idea. Sorry, now I am rambling. I just need some advice.
burke-a-bee is offline  
#2 of 51 Old 03-02-2005, 02:33 AM
 
Stevie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: 3rd rock from the sun
Posts: 1,627
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Since DH is okay with it, send him
I personally couldn't go...
Stevie is offline  
#3 of 51 Old 03-02-2005, 05:15 AM
 
kxsiven's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Finland
Posts: 1,535
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I agree with Stevie, send DH if he is OK with it. I could not go. I just couldn't.
kxsiven is offline  
#4 of 51 Old 03-02-2005, 05:44 AM
 
Mommiska's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,596
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by kxsiven
I agree with Stevie, send DH if he is OK with it. I could not go. I just couldn't.
Ditto.
Mommiska is offline  
#5 of 51 Old 03-02-2005, 05:54 AM
 
Jessviola's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 3,833
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
same here. I couldn't watch that. Especially since it's dh's boss, I'd probably end up getting dh in trouble because I wouldn't be able to handle it. It's bad enough just knowing that this happens, but to be there while it's happening is too much for me.
Jessviola is offline  
#6 of 51 Old 03-02-2005, 10:08 AM
 
Mama2E&O's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,063
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I know it is a religious custom but I still would not go and watch. It would break my heart.
Mama2E&O is offline  
#7 of 51 Old 03-02-2005, 10:40 AM
 
lioralourie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: A Frum Jew in China
Posts: 836
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
hi, burke-a-bee

yeah, your hubby could attend, and send your regards. Unless you're friendly with the boss's family, that is. Then I'd probably try to make an effort to attend. It's not an easy thing to be around--I empathize with you.

Speaking as one who has been to quite a few brisim, you could do what I do...eat the lox and bagels, make an appearance, give well wishes, mazal tov to the mother, hang out for the Hebrew prayers (there are lots) then step out of the building at the appropriate time if you need to. But it may not be as awful as you're expecting. Some babies hardly make a peep, and others, well, they do cry mightily. The trained hands of a Mohel (who may do several brisim per day) are much more skilled than most doctors. They apprentice with an older mohel for years. The actual preparation and slicing of the foreskin takes less than a minute, and the baby usually calms down in another 3 or 4 minutes.

It may not sound like it, but I'm conflicted about this, too. I'm speaking as someone raised AP, brother is uncut, etc. When I converted to Judaism (orthodox) I had to come to terms with the idea that circumcism, for Jews is a very special thing (I would never want a non-Jewish baby boy to have to be circumcised, of course). Even if most people on MDC don't believe this, to the Jews, the bris is a meaningful and important mitzvah (commandment) that they need to fulfill to be in keeping with Jewish tradition and Jewish law. It's the physical sign of the covenant between G-d and the Jews. Jewish men are reminded, their whole lives, that their whole selves, indeed their most private parts are consecrated to G-d: to goodness, procreation and to love (not to selfishness, or rape, or perversions or even to pure lust). Sorry to have expanded the topic a bit (a lot...) but I hope it's helpful to try to think of it from this point of view.

Liora, Frum Jew In Beijing, Mom of Three (one "Almost Autistic" healed in 3 years with biomed and one amazing girl with Down syndrome using Targeted Nutritional Intervention (TNI)
lioralourie is offline  
#8 of 51 Old 03-02-2005, 11:05 AM
 
2tadpoles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 2,142
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by lioralourie
The trained hands of a Mohel (who may do several brisim per day) are much more skilled than most doctors.
And from what I gather, the circumcision they do during a Bris is much different from a medical circumcision. I don't think they remove the whole foreskin, but just sort of cut a small piece out of it? I'm not 100%, though.
2tadpoles is offline  
#9 of 51 Old 03-02-2005, 11:22 AM
 
Frankly Speaking's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: North Atlanta
Posts: 5,167
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I can understand your internal conflict about this. You are strongly against circumcision but you also feel you must support your husband's career and maybe even feel some obligation to the boss if you know him well.

However, consider if the boss's daughter was having her genitals stripped and cut away, how would you feel and how would you react? I'm sure the same reaction would be detrimental to your husband's career and offensive to the boss. You should not compromise your ethics when the only difference is the sex of the victim. The best way to handle this is to just decline to attend. If your husband is not bothered by this or if he wants/feels he needs to attend, let him go. It may turn him into a rabid intactivist! :LOL

I have a Jewish woman friend who will not attend bris's. She has been to two and absolutely refuses to attend any more and she is not even an intactivist. I suspect she is not even aware of all of the controversy about this issue. She has a daughter who may bring this problem home. She is dating an Asian man and it appears they will eventually be married so it's a toss-up whose traditions will prevail but I have no doubt "M" will not be there should there be a bris. She gets a sour look on her face and kind of scrunches up her shoulders and a little shake every time the subject comes up.

If you don't want to go, just send your regrets with no other explanation. That's all that is required.




Frank
Frankly Speaking is offline  
#10 of 51 Old 03-02-2005, 11:33 AM
 
Frankly Speaking's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: North Atlanta
Posts: 5,167
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2tadpoles
And from what I gather, the circumcision they do during a Bris is much different from a medical circumcision. I don't think they remove the whole foreskin, but just sort of cut a small piece out of it? I'm not 100%, though.

They do remove the entire foreskin. As much is removed as possible and in fact, more is removed than in many hospital circumcisions. There have been so many problems in adult men due to their hospital circumcisions that many in the medical profession have started doing loose circumcisions in an effort to prevent those problems. In reality, all they have done is trade one set of problems for another whole set of different problems.

There is some historical evidence that at one time, the only part that was cut away was the part that extended beyond the tip of the glans so there was no separation of the foreskin and glans. There is also evidence that this practice was ended about 800 AD and replaced with the more aggressive style of complete removal including stripping away the foreskin and removal of the frenulum. I won't speculate whether those stories are true or not. However, there is very little difference in a hospital circumcision and a bris as far as how it is technically performed and the end results.



Frank
Frankly Speaking is offline  
#11 of 51 Old 03-02-2005, 11:33 AM
 
UUMom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 9,777
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
You don't have to watch, and you don't have to go for the ceremony. You can go for the party. I've been to a few brit malah ceremonies and they can be pretty powerful. Many times the baby is held in the lap by the godfather or grandfather etc. Its not a naked baby being strapped down as it screams it's little head off. Usually there are other women gathered around the mother, as it can be difficult for some moms. Some babies cry, some don't. The cutting itself is very fast. I agree with whoever posted that you can step out, or even come later.

But ok, if you can't you can't. A lot of people have a difficult time, even those who embrace the tradition. However, send good wishes and maybe a gift to welcome the baby. If your dh goes alone, I would hope he would say why you aren't, yk? (I'm sure he wouldn't but just throwing that out). It's a special day for them. My boys are not circ'd but some of the most loving AP parents I know have had a Bris for their sons.
UUMom is offline  
#12 of 51 Old 03-02-2005, 11:35 AM
 
UUMom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 9,777
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
frank, I know you are the king of circ questions,a nd I do appreciate that. But it's not true (not that it matters) that 'more is cut than in the hospital'. It just depends.
UUMom is offline  
#13 of 51 Old 03-02-2005, 12:06 PM
 
philomom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Pacific Northwest
Posts: 9,427
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
No way would I go.
philomom is offline  
#14 of 51 Old 03-02-2005, 12:17 PM
 
calngavinsmom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ontario Canada....EH!?!
Posts: 2,079
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Not even if I was being chased by rabid dogs could you get me anywhere near that household. There is nothing "beautiful" to me about causing babies pain or harming them in this way. IMHO cutting the genitals of a baby is just wrong, no matter how you try to justify it.

Of course, it depends on how you feel about it whether you attend or not. Noone else can tell you how to feel, just consider your own convictions about it. Myself, I would feel hypocritical if I went based on my very strong feelings about cutting babies genitals.

Take care,
Tara

Tara Momma to Callum and Gavin
calngavinsmom is offline  
#15 of 51 Old 03-02-2005, 12:23 PM
 
loving-my-babies's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: From Chile but live in Pgh, PA
Posts: 6,426
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
oh gosh, I coudln't go. I just couldn't "be invited" to see an innocent child suffer.
loving-my-babies is offline  
#16 of 51 Old 03-02-2005, 03:18 PM
 
UUMom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 9,777
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Rabid dogs couldn't get you to share something important with , and/or give support to a Jewish friend? Or would one simply avoid, and not make friends with Jews because you might get invited to a bris?
UUMom is offline  
#17 of 51 Old 03-02-2005, 03:32 PM
 
loving-my-babies's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: From Chile but live in Pgh, PA
Posts: 6,426
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Momma4
Rabid dogs couldn't get you to share something important with , and/or give support to a Jewish friend? Or would one simply avoid, and not make friends with Jews because you might get invited to a bris?
I'm not going to support someone that is hurting an innocent child and cutting off part of his penis. Anyone that does this is not worthy of my support. If I am present, I am saying that what she is doing to her child is ok. IMO it is not, and I will not witness a child screaming and agonizing because of this.
loving-my-babies is offline  
#18 of 51 Old 03-02-2005, 03:49 PM
 
kxsiven's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Finland
Posts: 1,535
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I have both jewish and moslim friends(some of them are against circ, some are not).

For me there are two things involved.
1) I view any genital cutting of children as a violation of human rights. It doesn't matter if it is done by American doctor, religious person or mister X
2) I know that religious circumcision is a ceremony taken very seriously by those who believe in it. So I would also stay away out of respect. I know I would start to cry because of what is done to the baby and that would not be very respectful for those who believe in it.
kxsiven is offline  
#19 of 51 Old 03-02-2005, 03:54 PM
 
Kathryn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Colorado
Posts: 6,426
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by loving-my-babies
I'm not going to support someone that is hurting an innocent child and cutting off part of his penis. Anyone that does this is not worthy of my support. If I am present, I am saying that what she is doing to her child is ok. IMO it is not, and I will not witness a child screaming and agonizing because of this.

Mom to Dakota (6), Coy, (4), Max, (4), Lily (4), and Auri (June 19th 2010)!
Visit Lily's site at www.caringbridge.org/visit/lilymathis1
Kathryn is offline  
#20 of 51 Old 03-02-2005, 04:09 PM
 
paquerette's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Poconos
Posts: 6,818
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Hmm, I wonder if this thread is crossing the line already, but I just have to wonder... if religion is an appropriate reason to harm a little baby by cutting his penis, is it also an appropriate reason to do other violent things to other humans? :
paquerette is offline  
#21 of 51 Old 03-02-2005, 04:12 PM
 
~Megan~'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Oregon
Posts: 15,310
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I wouldn't go at all.
Even if you only go to the party you are supporting circumcision. I understand its something important to Jewish people but to the rest of us it doesn't carry that significance.

Mom of a 7 yr old, 4 yr old, and 1 yr old. Wow. How did that happen?
~Megan~ is offline  
#22 of 51 Old 03-02-2005, 04:15 PM
 
the_lissa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Southern Ontario, Canada
Posts: 13,253
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I would not go. I wouldn't go to a rite where female circ is performed, so I don't see how it is any different.

Jam 7, Peanut Butter 5, and Bread 2.

the_lissa is offline  
#23 of 51 Old 03-02-2005, 04:23 PM
 
Mama Rana's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: hanging out with the sinners
Posts: 2,644
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
i was recently invited to a bris for a good friend's new son. i told her i was sorry but just didn't feel comfortable attending. I didn't elaborate, and i know she was disappointed but i couldn't do it. to me it would be like condoning it, and showing up late as she suggesed to miss the actual cutting, i would still be participating in the celebration of a ritual i see as a blood sacrifice (which in my mind makes it worse than those parents who circ out of misinformation: at least they believe they are doing the best for their son)

good luck
Mama Rana is offline  
#24 of 51 Old 03-02-2005, 04:26 PM
 
liseux's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: washington d.c.
Posts: 1,281
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I just got into this very argument on a debate site and I got absolutely pounced on when I said I would`t attend a female circ ceremnoy either. I hate circumcision for any reason, especially on a child. If it was a 40 year old who had studied hard and wanted a bris, then I`m happy for him but I still don`t want to see a penis getting cut.

Frank, I read a book called "Circumcision, a history of the world`s oldest surgery" I may be totally wrong on the title. Anyway, it talks about how the original Jewish circ (like in Jesus time and before) was a very small piece of skin. Then jump ahead a few hundred years and Jews wanted to be in the Olympics in Greece. (The Olympics were performed buck naked )The Greeks thought even a small circ was obscene, they considered intact penises covered up & more demure, if you will. So many Jewish men were pulling down what was left and weighting it so they would look intact and compete. The rabbis got wind of this and were mad that they were trying to pass as Gentiles so they made it mandatory to have the radical complete foreskin removal that you see today.

I hope I didn`t offend anyone, this is just what is in the book.

Married Catholic mami : to 5 boys, : 9 6 3 : 5 mo. 5/6/02-6/22/02 (HIE)
:
liseux is offline  
#25 of 51 Old 03-02-2005, 04:33 PM
 
dynamohumm6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 2,935
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I would not go.
dynamohumm6 is offline  
#26 of 51 Old 03-02-2005, 05:05 PM
 
calngavinsmom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ontario Canada....EH!?!
Posts: 2,079
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Momma4
Rabid dogs couldn't get you to share something important with , and/or give support to a Jewish friend? Or would one simply avoid, and not make friends with Jews because you might get invited to a bris?
I have Jewish friends and they understand my feelings about the circumcision of babies so they have simply never expected me to come to a Birs. I have been to one naming ceremony though of a baby girl and that couple would have the same type of ceremony if they are blessed with a son(one without cutting) and I would of course both support them in that and attend that function.

Tara

Tara Momma to Callum and Gavin
calngavinsmom is offline  
#27 of 51 Old 03-02-2005, 07:26 PM
 
Kirsten's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Washington state
Posts: 5,463
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Don't go. You don't agree with it. You shouldn't have to watch it or be uncomfortable or fake happiness for them on that day. Of course you are happy for the birth of their baby - I assume you sent a nice card and/or gift already?

Your dh can make his own decision on his attendance. If I knew them well, I would say I can't attend as I'm not comfortable with it. If I didn't, then I would just decline without comment.

On the side discussion re: can you have Jewish friends if you don't believe in circ - well, of course! Why not? I have many friends who vary in many different ways. Thinking we will agree on each and every issue - and refusing friendships if not - well, that doesn't make sense to me. I think I can be a good friend - and be true to myself - and still not attend a friend's son's bris. I can appreciate that it is important and necessary in their eyes - but they also need to appreciate that I have a different view. As long as we are all respectful and try to understand the other viewpoint, we are ok.
Kirsten is offline  
#28 of 51 Old 03-02-2005, 07:38 PM
 
Frankly Speaking's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: North Atlanta
Posts: 5,167
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Momma4
frank, I know you are the king of circ questions,a nd I do appreciate that. But it's not true (not that it matters) that 'more is cut than in the hospital'. It just depends.

The bris procedure calls for the complete baring of the glans so most (almost all) of the mucosal foreskin is cut away. In hospital procedures, there is the old style and the new style. (both still practiced) In the old style, the objective was to take off enough that the remaining skin would be stretched taught on erection. This is the same as the bris method that has been practiced for about the last 1,200 years. In the new style, often the final result looks like a circumcision hasn't even been done to the untrained eye. I've seen many Moms post about their dissatisfaction with this on other boards and there were even some that have had their sons circumcised the second time to get that tight look they wanted. I know of one that is trying to get it done a third time in her pursuit for what she thinks is perfection. (poor baby!)

So, yes, an equal amount is cut in the old style and the bris but compared to the new style hospital circumcision, the bris is more severe.




Frank
Frankly Speaking is offline  
#29 of 51 Old 03-02-2005, 07:41 PM
 
UUMom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 9,777
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I stand by my 'It just depends', because it does just depend. On the family, the mohel etc. etc. etc Not that it matters.
UUMom is offline  
#30 of 51 Old 03-02-2005, 07:43 PM
 
UUMom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 9,777
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
So I am assuming that one wouldn't tell a Jewish friend to her face "I wouldn't attend your son's bris if rabid dogs chased me there"? Because that wouldn't be respectful. At all.
UUMom is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Mothering Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off