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#61 of 98 Old 05-09-2005, 07:34 AM
 
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Sorry, I'm a bit late answering and some things have been said already, but anyway...


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Not really, as it's rare.
This isn't a matter of how rare it is. In a constitutional state, all citizens, if they are being harassed for having a foreskin (or for not having one for that matter) have the right to take it to court and get compensation and/or protection against further violations. Soldiers are still citizens and thus should have that right as well – but I guess there are many countries where the military is operating in a grey zone outside of law or where due to peer pressure, forced unity and forced hardening ("don't be a sissy, don't be a telltale") such incidences simply aren't reported when they happen in a military setting.


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Well, my mom is a Christian (I even have a godfather, not here though). Despite that I identify myself as Atheist.
I was first wondering why a Christian Ukrainian family would move to Israel – but the way Mom2six explained makes sense of course. I don't think that we can accuse TenFedNed of directly taking advantage of Israel however, since he was taken there by his mother as a child. And, of course, there's a flip side to that coin as well: Israel has such generous immigration regulations because it wants many immigrants to make sure that is is not demographically overrun by the Muslimic part of the society (or that's what I read, sorry if I'm wrong, it is in no way meant anti-Semitic!).

Anyway, the point I wanted to make is that I think that TenFedNed does have the right to wish to emigrate, whatever his reasons may be. That doesn't mean that he has the right to be handed his new citizenship on a silver platter, of course.


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Studying abroad will not help me as I’ll have to join army as soon as I get back.
Yes, but by studying you can a) win some time and b) get one foot into another country. Once you have a real good education and are considered a qualified and valuable part of society/economy, you have a better chance of getting a residence permit and work permit. Once you've lived in a country for some years, speak the language really well and learned about the culture and customs, you have a better chance of gaining citizenship. And so on.

Maybe kxsiven is right and only money will get you a place at university – but don't give up on that before you've received some country- and university-specific and first hand information.


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Support groups cannot do anything on military level.
Point taken, but maybe it could at least help gaining and spreading information about how to avoid the military/how to emigrate?


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I've never heard of the asylum thing. Is it some kind of money award or something that helps me move to a normal country?
Asylum means that a state grants a citizen of another state permanent or temporary refuge because the person is in some kind of danger in his/her home country (political, religious or ethnic persecution and the like).

On arriving in the new country, people can apply for asylum. Until their case is decided, they are in a kind of limbo and under strict restrictions (since they aren't supposed to disappear...). If asylum is granted, they are allowed to stay, work etc.; if it's denied, they are deported to their home country – and are not allowed to come back again! The terms for being granted asylum are quite strict and you have to be able to prove without a doubt that you are being persecuted/endangered. So it is quite tricky and risky, and I would advise you NOT to try without first getting detailed information about your chances. Israel as a democratic country is not one of the typical origins of asylumseekers, and so your case would be a particular and very uncertain case.

Personally, I think making yourself valuable to a society is the better, safer and more controllable way to go. Asylum-seekers are usually seen as a burden, and are at the mercy of the officials.


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I thank you for your reply and still waiting for any other suggestions/thoughts...
Another idea: If the UK is your country of choice, you could contact NORM-UK (www.norm-uk.org). Maybe they will be able to give you some more specific advice about immigrating into the UK. I really have no idea about their immigration regulations. You could also ask for information at a British embassy.

Somehow I get the feeling that you are waiting for the "perfect offer". Something like "Oh, I've got a big house, why don't you come over and move in and I'll adopt you as my son" (okay, that was a bit exaggerated ). That is not going to happen. If you want to leave Israel, you'll have to work hard for achieving your goal and be willing to accept some hardship.

Good luck again,
Stardust.
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#62 of 98 Old 05-09-2005, 08:40 AM
 
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((I talked to a brother of someone who wanted (and was) circ'ed while in the army because of the same problem (he wasn't beaten up because he was still jewish though).))



Really? So, you talked to a guy who knows a guy who…

Please forgive my continuing skepticism, but I know a guy who said his friend’s dog was eaten by the alligators in the sewers of New York City. That still doesn’t make it true though.

Again, please don’t take this as an attack. I am just trying to make you think, and question, the reality of your assumptions, and the possibility of needless worry.
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#63 of 98 Old 05-09-2005, 09:10 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Somehow I get the feeling that you are waiting for the "perfect offer". Something like "Oh, I've got a big house, why don't you come over and move in and I'll adopt you as my son" (okay, that was a bit exaggerated ).
I am not waiting for the "perfect offer". I am trying to get everyone’s' opinions/advices an chew it over to decide what to do next.

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I am wondering if perhaps your fears are a little exaggerated (not your feelings, but what would actually happen). It is my understanding that most Russian JEWS who immigrated to Israel were not circumcised later, let alone uncirc'd non-Jews. I happen to be friends with a few uncirc'd (yes, I asked!)
Perhaps I didn't explain everything correctly, and maybe some of the things that I'll add now will help you understand my situation.
See, most people who come to Israel from Russia/Ukraine are in a way "naturalizing" to the place, acting just like the people here, become the same as them. I could never be like people here for many reasons. I cannot pretend to be someone who I am not and cannot become.
Yes, I know that in most cases people like me suffer in the army. It would be hard to someone who has never been in my shoes to understand.
What I'm asking you is simply advices on how to get out of the country where I do not belong, where I feel miserable, where I'm not being liked by most others. The country that requires me to join the army, to be tossed and most likely get beaten up (most likely to happen in the basic training months) for being such different.
What I want is to gain my freedom.

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I'm a little disappointed by the stereotyping and prejudice I've found in this thread. Most of the posts have been respectful and insightful, but there have been a few that carry definite anti-Semitic messages. This site is for people of all cultures and religions, please remember that. There are probably a lot more Jews around than you realize. Even Jews who frequent this particular sub-forum.
I am sorry if you understood me wrong. I have no intension to offend neither religions nor countries. I just want to find a solution to my problem, that’s all I want.

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Just out of curiosity, how is it that you write so well in perfect American English if you are from a Russian-speaking country and now live in a Hebrew-speaking country? Just wondering.
My English is far from being perfect, but yes, I was studying English the best I could for more than 3 years with the hope that someday I will be able to move to an English speaking country where I believed and still believe that i belong.

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Anyway, the point I wanted to make is that I think that TenFedNed does have the right to wish to emigrate, whatever his reasons may be. That doesn't mean that he has the right to be handed his new citizenship on a silver platter, of course.
silver platter? No. Just advice, any advice.

And yes, I've been trying to contact different groups. I haven't went through the whole list (of those I know).
I didn't get any replies yet.
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#64 of 98 Old 05-09-2005, 10:44 AM
 
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Originally Posted by TenFedNed
I am not waiting for the "perfect offer". I am trying to get everyone’s' opinions/advices an chew it over to decide what to do next.
Well, I had the impression that you dismissed or rejected most ideas that were given because they didn't provide an instant solution. But maybe it was just a naturally skeptic reaction on your side. An occasional "Thanks; good idea; I'll pursue that" in between might help alleviate that.

Seems like you've got more than enough stuff to chew over now. I hope you'll get replies soon – I know it can take an unnervingly long time until organizations and agencies react.

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#65 of 98 Old 05-09-2005, 11:12 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Stardust27
And, of course, there's a flip side to that coin as well: Israel has such generous immigration regulations because it wants many immigrants to make sure that is is not demographically overrun by the Muslimic part of the society (or that's what I read, sorry if I'm wrong, it is in no way meant anti-Semitic!). .
Actually, Israel's immigration policy was set after WW II and was directly influenced by the policies of Hitler (having one Jewish grandparent defined you and a 'Jew' for persecution). Therefore, in order to provide refuge for anyone who might face a similar threat, they were worded as such. There was much debate about the subject then and now, but the law still stands as it is to provide a haven for anyone that might be threatend from being decended from Jews or married to a Jew. BTW - the Soviets considered anyone with a Jewish father to be Jewish (Jewish law states only if the mother is Jewish) and those people faced persecution as well, so even in more recent history there were those who needed to use the law as it stands.
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#66 of 98 Old 05-09-2005, 12:56 PM
 
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I think some of you are being a little hard on the OP. I personally know grown men who were drafted into the US Army (during VietNam conflict), were given no choice about joining the armed forces, who chose to become circumsized rather than be beat up constantly. It's not that outrageous an idea, and I wouldn't doubt it still goes on to some extent even now, even in our very own armed forces.

anyway, my point is that it's an army thing, not an Israeli thing. I'm sure the same thing happens everywhere, no matter how someone might be different than the rest.
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#67 of 98 Old 05-09-2005, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by stafl
I think some of you are being a little hard on the OP. I personally know grown men who were drafted into the US Army (during VietNam conflict), were given no choice about joining the armed forces, who chose to become circumsized rather than be beat up constantly. It's not that outrageous an idea, and I wouldn't doubt it still goes on to some extent even now, even in our very own armed forces.

anyway, my point is that it's an army thing, not an Israeli thing. I'm sure the same thing happens everywhere, no matter how someone might be different than the rest.

Not in the Canadian Armed Forces.

You make fun of someone/harass/assult them, you get charged. Plain and simple. there is NO tolerance for that kinda crap in the Canadian Military. Just ask my DH, who almost got formally Charged for telling a fellow recruit "I wish you were dead" Only my FIL was the one to save him from having a room at Club Ed *Our Ft. Leavenworth*

We cracked down hard on that kinda bull when the Airborne got busted for Hazing.
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#68 of 98 Old 05-09-2005, 01:25 PM
 
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<off topic>

Thanks for explaining, Mom2six - I didn't know the policy dated back this long and hasn't been revised since then (where I live, there seem to be changes every other year ). It's fully understandable then, of course, but I think it should be possible to make it stricter now and check whether potential immigrants are really persecuted where they come from or whether they are just economic/social migrants. But that's for the government to decide, of course.

Thanks again.

</off topic>

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#69 of 98 Old 05-09-2005, 02:45 PM
 
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#70 of 98 Old 05-09-2005, 02:48 PM
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#71 of 98 Old 05-09-2005, 02:55 PM
 
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The problem I have is that Israel is a priori assumed to be an aweful, human rights abusing country and it MUST BE TRUE what this kid is telling you.

Thanks for thinking that I am that 'intelligent'. Do you really think that I base my human rights opinions on some anonymous posts on the net?

I have worked for human rights organisations, I still belong to many of them and work actively to make things better.

My DW's father was intact - rare in 60's USA but anyway. He went to army in early Vietnam years and almost got forcefully circumcised, got beaten and teased. Luckily after basic training he got transfered to different place. So does this make whole US army awful. No. But it shows it can happen. I just read news that sexual harrasment cases sky rocketed in US military last year. Does that make whole military sexual abusers? No, but there is clearly a problem. Tell me how you can be 100% that no man or woman get teased or beaten up in Israel army for any reason ever? Or any other army? I sure cannot say that for Scandinavian armies.

People get teased because they are different. That law works every where, kindergardens, schools, working places and yes, in military.
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#72 of 98 Old 05-09-2005, 03:35 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Someone I know who is in army now told me that they are assigning me to a place in army when I'm about 16 (not too far from now :S).

I am completely depressed now. I don't think I could legally move anywhere when I'm 18 because of it.

That must change things... Any ideas?
So much of my human rights…
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#73 of 98 Old 05-09-2005, 04:04 PM
 
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Originally Posted by kxsiven
Tell me how you can be 100% that no man or woman get teased or beaten up in Israel army for any reason ever? Or any other army?
Uh, I think I agreed with you that armies can be aweful places. However, it is a big jump to say 'no one is circed in the army [which we already have seen to not be true] and they will FORCE me to be [which I highly, highly doubt]" Enough crap and scandel come out of the army on a daily basis that if this were an issue, we'd hear about it. It's a small country and an 'everyman' army, so I can't say it never COULD happen, but it is not institutionalized, and I does not seem to be common.

But everyone jumped right on the 'that's right! It must be so!' bandwagon immediately. This kid has some pretty serious issues - he's an unhappy 15 year old, is in Israel due to choices his parents made thinking that things would pan out economically (all this from the OP) and makes outrageous claims about the Israeli army (which he hasn't been in, but has 'heard' things) that other posters have posted that they know of people who did not have that experience. Couple that with the fact that this child COULD return to the Ukraine (but obviously doesn't want to). Yet somehow from all of this we are supposed to condemn Israel. Color me confused.
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#74 of 98 Old 05-09-2005, 04:13 PM
 
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Originally Posted by TenFedNed
Someone I know who is in army now told me that they are assigning me to a place in army when I'm about 16 (not too far from now :S).

I am completely depressed now. I don't think I could legally move anywhere when I'm 18 because of it.

That must change things... Any ideas?
So much of my human rights…
Let me explain how it works. Before you turn 18 or before your induction date, you go to the army and request that you want to visit your [grandparents, godfather, fill in the blank] back in the Ukraine. You get permission to go. You buy a round trip ticket, you leave and YOU DON'T COME BACK. This should not be a problem b/c you have already stated that once you get out, you never want to come back. People who want out of Israel do this all the time. Surely if you have been in the country for 10 years you have heard of people doing this? However, it does not solve the problem of getting out of the Ukraine.
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#75 of 98 Old 05-09-2005, 04:42 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I have some relatives in USA. Maybe I could "visit them back in USA"?

From your post I understand that you are familiar with those rules. Could you please give me more details/info?
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#76 of 98 Old 05-09-2005, 05:03 PM
 
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You problem would be staying in the US. Once your visa expires, you would be in the US illegally. Of course, you would not be the first person with Israeli citizenship to stay on in the US without a visa. But if you get caught, you would be deported. Having worked with Jews from the FSU that have come to the US, I can say that your chances of getting assylum here are slim to none. The other problem is that once you have come to the US, it becomes more difficult to get a residency permit (green card). They often make you apply from your home country and if you are here, require you to leave. If you want to leave for the US, your best bet would be to apply for the 'green card lottery' or a student visa (you would have to get accept to a school in the US) once you have left Israel for another country where you are able to reside legally. I believe that your relatives might be able to sponsor you in your application for immigration status to the US, but again, you would probably have to be out of Israel to do it. That part I am not so familiar with, but you should be able to find out the procedure for the INS online.

I am only familiar with the procedure for getting permission to leave the country from the army having had to do it with my husband.
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#77 of 98 Old 05-09-2005, 05:15 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Do they actually check if I have relatives 'there'? I could say that Ill be visiting my (unexisting) relatives in UK and there, becoming a UK citizen should be a lot easier than in USA.
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#78 of 98 Old 05-10-2005, 05:11 AM
 
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You don't have to have a reason to visit the UK, so you wouldn't have to invent any relatives.

You have to be resident in the UK for four/five years, I forget precisely, before you can apply for citizenship. If you arrive on a shortstay visa & overstay it, you won't be able to get work - you won't have the right papers - & they will certainly not give you citizenship. You will be an illegal immigrant. When they catch you, they will deport you back to Israel.

If you want to apply for aslyum you have to do it the minute you arrive, not after your visa runs out. You have to have documentary evidence of what you are fleeing. I highly doubt they will not grant you aslyum on the grounds you have. Again, they will deport you.

If you really are interested in leaving, the easiest way of you to do so at this stage of your life is to study abroad - you can get student visas with more ease - or to return to the Ukraine.
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#79 of 98 Old 05-10-2005, 07:25 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Why would I need an asylum in the UK?
Just wondering but can't I just immigrate to the UK using one of their immigration programs?

Study abroad...? How am I going to do that if I know that I'll go to jail if I ever come back to israel after "skipping" army?
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#80 of 98 Old 05-10-2005, 07:49 AM
 
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You won't be able to just get citizenship in the UK like that. You need to be able to enter the country on a long-term visa, either through studying or work (you have to have a job lined up when you apply for this, & the company employing you has to be able to prove that you have skills they can't get from someone already in Britain), & when you have been in the UK for four years then you can apply for citizenship. There isn't a programme where you just apply for citizenship. This is Fortress Europe!

I really advise you to do some research, go to the US embassy, the UK embassy, the Ukraine embassy, & see what your options are.
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#81 of 98 Old 05-10-2005, 09:25 AM
 
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I can only second what calpurnia said. Do not try to "sneak" into a country, that is bound to be exposed and backfire very painfully sooner or later. Once they deported you, you won't be let in again even for a short time stay. Play fair and try to make yourself attractive with a good education, that's your best chance IMHO.

You might want to add Australia (http://www.smca.com.au/, http://www.activescgroup.com/)
and New Zealand (http://www.auswandern-neuseeland.de/e3.htm, http://www.immigration.govt.nz/) to the list – they might be a bit more open to immigrants than overpopulated Europe.

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#82 of 98 Old 05-10-2005, 12:10 PM
 
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TenFedNed, how much have you discussed this with your mother? I don't recall much mention of talking your feelings and plans over with her. Forgive me if I am wrong though. It just sounds like what you want to do is very serious and should not be pursued without at least talking to her. I understand that she may not ultimately agree with you, but atleast then you wouldn't be doing this without her knowing. KWIM? She would atleast have the opportunity to help you if she realizes just how serious your concerns are. If she chooses not to, well then atleast you know you tried to enlist her help in the matter.
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#83 of 98 Old 05-10-2005, 12:25 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Was wondering... I have relatives (uncle, aunt) in Canada, could I use them in the "i want to visit my relatives and skip army" technique?
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#84 of 98 Old 05-10-2005, 12:29 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tayndrewsmama
TenFedNed, how much have you discussed this with your mother? I don't recall much mention of talking your feelings and plans over with her. Forgive me if I am wrong though. It just sounds like what you want to do is very serious and should not be pursued without at least talking to her. I understand that she may not ultimately agree with you, but atleast then you wouldn't be doing this without her knowing. KWIM? She would atleast have the opportunity to help you if she realizes just how serious your concerns are. If she chooses not to, well then atleast you know you tried to enlist her help in the matter.
You were right. I've never talked to her about this except once murmuring something about me getting money to immigrate or something alike.
Despite that, I perfectly know that she herself wants to leave this country (not sure about me leaving alone, but I think it's pretty obvious that this won't stop me from leaving this country, and I believe that I do have the right. Especially when Ill be 18)
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#85 of 98 Old 05-10-2005, 04:04 PM
 
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This discussion has moved from one of circumcision to one of leaving a country and moving to another. TedFedNed, can I suggest you start a thread in "Finding Your Tribe" or "Talk Amongst Ouselves" to see if you can find some members who have done what you are interested in doing? You may be able to get some information from people who have gone through the process.

"To err is human, to forgive, canine." - Unknown
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#86 of 98 Old 05-10-2005, 05:45 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Thank you all for your advice!!
The thread has been recreated in http://www.mothering.com/discussions...71#post3101371
for further posts please use the new thread.
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#87 of 98 Old 05-13-2005, 05:24 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by calpurnia
I don't think you have to have a gun in your hand when you do military service in Israel either. My aunt didn't, I don't think (speaking of which, her brother is intact & was in the army. Maybe he missed the penis inspections?)
FTR the actual fact is that the "penis inspection" is to DEDUCT points from one's score if it has been operated on (circed). When the score gets too low you are rejected from service. Circumcision, "even" in the Israeli army is considered a physical defect. I think the score for a circed male starts at 90 instead of 100 but I'm not sure on the exact number right now.

Mom of 5 boys- 13, 10, 8, 2 : and newbie Aug. 24th, '09 . babywearing advocate . Cook, baker, homemaker, wife to a man with another woman's kidney (live altruistic, unknown donor).
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#88 of 98 Old 05-13-2005, 05:35 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TenFedNed
Someone I know who is in army now told me that they are assigning me to a place in army when I'm about 16 (not too far from now :S).
Now, that I *know* is not true. If your score is too low when you go to your first appointment at lishkat hagiyus then they reject you. Also it takes awhile from when they accept you to when you get your placement.

Mom of 5 boys- 13, 10, 8, 2 : and newbie Aug. 24th, '09 . babywearing advocate . Cook, baker, homemaker, wife to a man with another woman's kidney (live altruistic, unknown donor).
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#89 of 98 Old 05-13-2005, 07:08 AM
 
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Originally Posted by BelovedBird
FTR the actual fact is that the "penis inspection" is to DEDUCT points from one's score if it has been operated on (circed). When the score gets too low you are rejected from service. Circumcision, "even" in the Israeli army is considered a physical defect. I think the score for a circed male starts at 90 instead of 100 but I'm not sure on the exact number right now.
I was actually joking about the idea of penis inspections
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#90 of 98 Old 05-13-2005, 08:57 AM
 
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BB, I have to tell you - I think that -1 score for a circumcision is just a joke. No one male or female, gets a perfect 100.

On the other hand, I asked my dh (Israeli born, served 4 1/2 years in army, still goes to reserves, has a rank of captain I think) about the OP situation, and he felt that with all the Russian-speakers in the army these days, many of them not circumcized, it really wouldn't be a big deal. He was the only observant Jew in an all secular Jewish plattoon. He said it wasn't a big deal. (No one resented him for the things he couldn't do on Shabbat, etc.). He said the only "violence" he sees in the army today (note, there certainly could be more that he doesn't see) is maybe name calling (well I see this in every traffic jam - Israelis are hotheads) and pushing/shoving (not right, but also seen on every playground/schoolyard). Out and out harrasment can be dealt with within the army hierarchy. Yes, there is prejudice against Russian-speakers (many of whom might not have chosen to come to Israel if they had better options), but it is not institutionalized discrimination.

However, if you (the OP) want to get out of Israel, I would recommend following the advice given earlier -- go back to the FSU. Personally, I'm not so happy with the idea of someone defending my country who doesn't even want to be here. Or even better, stay here and work for the changes you would like to see happen in our society, as does MK Natan Sharansky.

I wish you luck in whatever you choose. My daughter will be in the army in 6 years, and my son in 9, and I hope they will feel proud to serve, and that the Israel they will defend will be worthy of their pride.
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