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#1 of 48 Old 09-14-2005, 11:21 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Okay, I know I'm gonna get flamed here, but give me a chance. I have no problem with ppl who are against circs...fine. I have a problem with drs that are out for their own agenda though...either way!

The dr that "circ'd" my oldest son (who made us wait till he was six months!) messed up big time. I found out from his associate that it was done on purpose! The dr was against circs and therefore decided (without telling us that he wasn't going to do a normal circ-ie full circ with the ring to prevent pain) to snip him just enough to cause pain (and plenty of infections!) and did not use ANYTHING to prevent pain. My baby slept for two days, nursing only, screaming from nightmares (ever hear of a 6mos old having nightmares?!), and refused his daddy during this time. Their reasoning, other than they didn't want to do it, is that is would be less likely he'd get an STD (my boy will learn to keep his pants on or he's on his own far as I'm concerned) and he will "have a better sexual experience" (my hubby is circ'd and let me tell you, there is NO problem there!). I so wanted to sue this guy!!!

My 2nd son was done appropriately and had no pain and no ensuing infections. My oldest to this day get infections due to the foreskin still being there. My oldest is considered uncirc'd by his ped.

I'll be honest, I've never seen such aggression against circs as I've seen here, so if you want to add in you input, fine, but be kind...I like hardheaded ppl but not ones that bite your head off...I am curious about your reasons-you may or may not convince me. I am a Christian-some are required to still circ, others are not-I do believe there was a physical as well as spiritual reason for everything commanded. In this case, cleanliness...JMHO. Go for it ladies, I AM curious and willing to listen (just remember I grew up with circs being the norm and un-circ'd as considered gross). Also, wanted to add on the ppl losing friends over the issue...I wouldn't give up a friendship over it, but if someone called me a child-abuser for it, yeah, I'd back off also. I also see typical boy circs as a totally separate issue than the drastic long-term issue of girl circs (which I don't consider a circ at all).

All ears for decent, rational comments.

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#2 of 48 Old 09-14-2005, 11:33 AM
 
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Hey there... Have some comments, but just saying hi since you're on. Will comment below!
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#3 of 48 Old 09-14-2005, 11:41 AM
 
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luckily you have the most informed guy I know of here to give you all the info you need- I'm sure Frank will be over shortly

Just wanted to comment on one thing- if you've never had sex with an intact man you have NO IDEA what you're missing

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#4 of 48 Old 09-14-2005, 11:45 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Sounds like I'm in for it...that's okay. BTW, I am reading over the threads (I am such an information freak). I'm noticing different kinds of circs mentioned throughout the threads, besides the two my little ones experienced. Could someone fill me in on the different types?

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#5 of 48 Old 09-14-2005, 11:51 AM
 
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Okay now to reply...

There are some doctors like the one you "found" who don't agree with circ and do as conserrvative of a job as they can. I don't agree with his reasonings if indeed it was true that he said he wants him to get STDs from having foreskin left, and so that sex will be better. First of all, the STDs related to foreskins myth has been debunked for ages. That was started in the 1930's! But it is still effective as a scare tactic. Besides which- as you already pointed out!- lack of a foreskin is not a protective measure against them, so what is the point? Concerning leaving more foreskin making sex better, I have two thoughts on that. First is what you mentioned- that it is the person and experience and who you are with that counts most as far as how good sex can be. However, in my experience, if a man is left with "more"- that is, even if they have some movable shaftskin when erect, and especially if they have some frenulum left (that whole area is called the frenular delta, as is extremely sensitive), they aren't "more sensitive" but rather, they can experience a wider range of chromatic sensations. Does that make sense? There's more available- more "nuances". So in that way, yes, it makes sex better. But that's no substitite for the proper partner and experience, but it *is*, I think, icing on the cake. Also, as far as infections go, when you do a partial circ, what you are doing is prematurely separating the foreskin from the head of the penis. So that, now, it can't function as a natural foreskin would- that is, stay sealed down and keep out contaminants. If you're constantly undoing what the body "wants" to do, then problems can arrise. So, IMO, circing of this type CAUSES infections. If you leave the foreskin intact, there won't be infections. But if you cut the whole thing off- like you were talking about- you don't get infections either, but you run into issues of too much skin being taken (i.e. no movable skin when erect, or not enough to cover an erection, or that pulls pubic hair up onto the shaft) and removing part or all of the frenulum.... The list could go on, but these are some of the basic variances between circ's and functionality in circ'd men.

Again, this is just my experience in talking to others, researching types of circs, and my experience with partners. Never had an intact man, but that is not what I base having a boyfriend on, either.
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#6 of 48 Old 09-14-2005, 11:54 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mommaduck
Sounds like I'm in for it...that's okay. BTW, I am reading over the threads (I am such an information freak). I'm noticing different kinds of circs mentioned throughout the threads, besides the two my little ones experienced. Could someone fill me in on the different types?
Maybe you're talking about the methods? The most widely used methods are Gomco, Mogen, and Plastibel. You can read about those here if you like: http://www.circumcisionquotes.com/methods.html

There are also variations in how much skin is taken and where the cut is placed on the shaft. So, you can get a "high and tight" result or a "low and loose" result, or I guess a "high and loose" result, etc. I'm not really versed with the differences and to be honest, anybody ASKing for these results is probably going to be an adult. Its just WEIRD for a parent to ASK for a certain "result" IMO! ICK!
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#7 of 48 Old 09-14-2005, 12:00 PM
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You know, this thread got me thinking about the perspective from the doctor's side, kwim?
What kind of human being do you have to be to consciously mutilate infant boys genitals?

I am pre-med, and there is no way I could do that to an infant.
Isn't the first thing you are taught is "do no harm"?

At the rate I am going, no hospital in this country will hire me, :LOL
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#8 of 48 Old 09-14-2005, 12:03 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MamaInTheBoonies
You know, this thread got me thinking about the perspective from the doctor's side, kwim?
What kind of human being do you have to be to consciously mutilate infant boys genitals?

I am pre-med, and there is no way I could do that to an infant.
Isn't the first thing you are taught is "do no harm"?

At the rate I am going, no hospital in this country will hire me, :LOL

Actually, there was a video made where they interviewed eight doctors who do- or used to do circs-, saying why. You can find what they said on this page: http://www.circumcisionquotes.com/doctorsay.html under "the film, Facing Circumcision" near the bottom.
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#9 of 48 Old 09-14-2005, 12:04 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I really appreciate your comments. It also makes sense what you are saying about the so-called partial circ. And I'm not one to ask for a particular result as a means of looks, but as for what is best for my child (we are hoping for another boy)...so I'm not trying to be weird...just informed.

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#10 of 48 Old 09-14-2005, 12:06 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mommaduck
I really appreciate your comments. It also makes sense what you are saying about the so-called partial circ. And I'm not one to ask for a particular result as a means of looks, but as for what is best for my child (we are hoping for another boy)...so I'm not trying to be weird...just informed.
Hey! Its no wierder than my answering them!
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#11 of 48 Old 09-14-2005, 12:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathan1097
Actually, there was a video made where they interviewed eight doctors who do- or used to do circs-, saying why. You can find what they said on this page: http://www.circumcisionquotes.com/doctorsay.html under "the film, Facing Circumcision" near the bottom.
Jennie-thank you, the cartoon had me laughin for a while! The comments by the doctor's all made sense but still I couldn't find any from doctors who still choose to do them or if they had the information, would they still choose to do so?

I guess with my morals and such, I just could not fathom hurting a baby who has no choice in the matter. If a man wants to be circumcised then he can make that choice on his own, even be knocked out and have painkillers for however many days/weeks he needs them.

As for the one doctor who said all the mothers who choose circ saying that they want them to look like their dad...what kind of father compares genitals with his sons? My mother never compared genitals with me, and I never compared mine with my daughters. Why would anyone think it is okay for fathers and sons to do that?
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#12 of 48 Old 09-14-2005, 12:43 PM
 
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Personally I don't think drs. should do circs at all ethically. What would you have done if they just wouldn't do it?

-Angela
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#13 of 48 Old 09-14-2005, 12:44 PM
 
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mommaduck, I'm going to reply to your post but don't have time now. It's going to be a long one! I'll have it this afternoon though.


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#14 of 48 Old 09-14-2005, 12:59 PM
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Jennie- about my previous question - found the the quotes, I guess I wasn't going far enuf down the page. Thanks again
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#15 of 48 Old 09-14-2005, 01:12 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MamaInTheBoonies
What kind of human being do you have to be to consciously mutilate infant boys genitals?
This is the kind of thing I'm asking ppl to stay away from on this thread. I happen to be a VERY loving and protective momma. However, when you are used to this as a normal and expected (let alone the spiritual issues for some ppl) medical procedure, then you don't think of it as mutilation. If you want to convince ppl like me, do it with facts/information, not presumptions of a person's heart or mind and mud-slinging. Especially as a med-student, I would hope you could give medical information dealing with the issue (and would appreciate it). I've noticed many ppl on here who used to circ. I don't believe any of them were abusive or horrible ppl. Looking back they may have found themselves uninformed of both sides of the issue, but not what you implied. And as I've stated, I'm searching this issue out.

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#16 of 48 Old 09-14-2005, 01:23 PM
 
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Hi,

"I am a Christian-some are required to still circ, others are not-I do believe there was a physical as well as spiritual reason for everything commanded. "

I realize we're not supposed to have religious discussion here, but could you please expand on this statement. More pointedly, what Christians are required to circ? Where does this religious ceremony take place?

Sincerely,

Lise
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#17 of 48 Old 09-14-2005, 01:30 PM
 
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The thing is, if the medical reasons are being debunked, and you admit you are doing it for your own personal preference, and because of how you were raised, it should give you something to think about. Would you willingly have part of your genitalia removed, without adequate pain relief? I just can't see how one can justify ripping the foreskin from the glans (imagine having your fingernails ripped off, same tissue connecting), and slicing, exposing the glans, which is meant to be protected, then having that unnatural wound healing in a diaper. I know if I have any sort of rash down under, urine HURTS, and I don't even have to sit in it. That is where some of us are coming from. It isn't pain free, no matter how you do it. It's permenant, and the man will always be missing something he should have, something nature/God gave him for a reason. So, I can see how the term "mutilation" comes in. It doesn't matter if you think it's prettier, cleaner, etc, it is still the destruction of healthy tissue on the body. I don't personally use that word, because it makes people shut down altogether, but I know how one can feel strongly enough to use it.

I was raised to think that intact penises were ugly. My mom has tried to persuade me repeatedly to have my son circumcised. She does not want to read what any respectable health organizations have to say. I had to ask her, why does it matter how your grandson/son's penis looks? Do you intend on having much to do with it when he's an adult?

I don't believe ANY parent is out to hurt their child. I do , however, believe that many are ignorant to the facts, and some just don't put much thought into it at all, or they're so wrapped up in what THEY find appealing and debunked medical information, that they try to justify it.

I had my first son circumcised, because it was all I had known. I didn't know any different, and was ignorant to the facts. I was told at 25 weeks, that I was having a girl. I never researched. I was given the paper to sign, moments after his birth, and signed it. Though, I felt sick when I was told it was going to be done. I will forever feel guilty. The guilt grows stronger the more I read. I vowed to educate mothers who were willing to listen, and to never make the same mistake again. I now have an intact baby boy. It is soooo much easier to care for than a circ'd penis. There is no wound, no worries about infection of the wound, no screaming, less of a reaction to shots (pain wise), and it's easy to wash. No need for vaseline in diaper changes, no bloody diapers. I know that he won't be in the minority, because the circumcision rate is at about 50% and falling. I got over my old mindset, and found out that there is nothing wrong with an intact penis, in fact, it's completely the way it's supposed to be

I just couldn't imagine going through a natural birth, holding my beautiful son for the first time, then handing him to someone else to have him strapped down and cut. I wanted to hold and snuggle my baby, have him sleep with me, and protect him from any pain.Sure, I can't protect him forever, but that was one thing I had the power to protect him from.

You seem like a very natural parent. Doing things society doesn't normally promote (homeschooling, non vaxing, breastfeeding, cosleeping), why would this be any different. It's natural, and it's not mainstream. You don't seem mainstream at all.(quite the contrary).

As for what was done by that doctor, that's sick how any doctor could purposely make it worse than it already is, and cause added pain. If he's against circumcision, he shouldn't be doing it at all. He's taking his revenge on the innocent
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#18 of 48 Old 09-14-2005, 01:32 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Y-ists and messianics required circs. These are forms of Christianity that hold to the OT laws. Most of them are kosher-like, but not actually kosher. Some have a ceremony, most just require a circ/ceremony or not (in the OT is was not always done ceremoniously). Hope that helps. Btw, I'm not one of these...so not an issue.

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#19 of 48 Old 09-14-2005, 01:33 PM
 
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Hello there. I noticed that you said that you were Christian so I thought I would post this thread for you. A few others have found it very helpful.
http://www.udonet.com/circumcision/christian.html

As far as the different types(as in cosmetic results) of circs, doctors realised that by taking off "too much" foreskin, the boy could run into problems later in life such as tight erections, hairy penile shaft or even a curvature of the penis(from a lop sided job). This could be painful for them, some even tearing the scar line during intercourse. So, by that your first son is actually better off having more of his foreskin left.

In reards to the "ring" you reffered to to prevent pain. If it is the plastibell you are thinking of, it does nothing to decrease the pain of the surgery, it only makes it more convienient for the doctors because it is easier to use than the clamp. In fact, the plastibell is responsible for an increase in the complication rates because of post-surgical infection.

I'm sure you will get many more responses and I wish you luck with your information gathering.

Tara

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#20 of 48 Old 09-14-2005, 01:55 PM
 
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Ok so what is/are your main concerns about intactness, so we can address them?

Looking like daddy/everyone else?

Cleanliness?

Medical/health?

Religious?

We actually had every intent of circing (I know can you ladies believe it), but we decided that before we had something done to our child (anything for any child) we wanted to be fully informed. Once we learned about it, it was an easy choice.

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#21 of 48 Old 09-14-2005, 01:58 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by veiledexpressions
The thing is, if the medical reasons are being debunked, and you admit you are doing it for your own personal preference, and because of how you were raised, it should give you something to think about.
It is, that's why I opened up and mentioned it and started asking questions. I "thought" I was informed when I did it. The only reason I ever heard at the time for not circ-ing was "because we're gentiles", which I think is lousey and bigoted reasoning. I read an article on it not too long ago (already had my boys and the article wasn't very convincing). Then I come here and start reading these threads. I'm starting to think you're all onto something. So yes, I'm thinking (SIL says I think too much :LOL )

Quote:
Originally Posted by veiledexpressions
if you think it's prettier,
That's hysterical...sorry, couldn't help it.

Excellent points, btw. You're right, I was going with a preference and not very informed of the other side of the issue or the facts vs myths.

Quote:
Originally Posted by veiledexpressions
You seem like a very natural parent. Doing things society doesn't normally promote (homeschooling, non vaxing, breastfeeding, cosleeping), why would this be any different. It's natural, and it's not mainstream. You don't seem mainstream at all.(quite the contrary).
Thank you!

Quote:
Originally Posted by veiledexpressions
As for what was done by that doctor, that's sick how any doctor could purposely make it worse than it already is, and cause added pain. If he's against circumcision, he shouldn't be doing it at all. He's taking his revenge on the innocent
Yes, this was my issue. He never said why he was against them, just that he was. And he never informed us of what he was going to do vs what he knew we were expecting. I would have rather he had just said no and turned us away than to have taken it out on my child (or any child for that matter). I was in tears for a week over it (when I wasn't screaming about what a mean jerk the dr was).

Someone asked what would have happened if he had just turned us away. Well in our case, with our first child we were in the financial dumps so we would have done nothing. He just would've gone uncirc'd. His infections have decreased and were never "severe" enough to medically need recirc-ing and now I'm not sure I could put him through that at his age (duh, then why did I put my baby through it at all...cause I was told that it's different and hurts less for a baby than an older person, and that they don't remember it...wait a minute! Was that a lightswitch I just hit?)

Nathan1097, what you said made sense, I didn't know that about the foreskin being that attached to the glans. I thought all this time that he would have had the same infections if he had been left alone. That's why I made sure my second son was circ'd and that the new dr knew that I wanted a complete circ.

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#22 of 48 Old 09-14-2005, 01:58 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mommaduck
However, when you are used to this as a normal and expected (let alone the spiritual issues for some ppl) medical procedure, then you don't think of it as mutilation.


I had to comment on this thread because we are conservative Christian and we did not circ our son. I know there is a big difference of opinion among Christians on circ but the majority of boys I know that are also from conservative Christian homes are not circed. I am in California that has a pretty low circ rate anyway. I know of one Catholic family that insists they circ for religious reasons however their only boy was circed by a Hindu resident at the hospital. Have you ever read anything on the history of circumcision in the United States? It really helped me understand how circumcision became so entrenched in our culture. If you were in Europe you would probably find the idea of circing a boy odd and unnatural. It has more to do with cultural conditioning than anything.

I'm also married to a man that had an extremely tight circumcision as an infant. The skin was also removed unevenly and caused the penis to curve during an erection. He has done some foreskin restoration and has been able to get the skin to even out so he no longer has the curve during an erection. Foreskin restoration can't restore everything plus it is a huge time commitment and undertaking. His mother always assumed everything was just fine with the circ until I told her the problems dh was having as an adult. Dh's parents are really wonderful in a lot of ways but I feel they really failed him with the decision they made. He was born in the 70's though and it was definitely the norm for the time. I guess the ped my mil was using at the time recommended it so she felt it was best. His mom feels so bad about what was done now but she can't undo was she did. I think you'll find that a lot of us here just wish that the decision of whether to be circed or not was left with the owner of the penis. It's definitely a decision I wish my dh would have gotten to make for himself.

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#23 of 48 Old 09-14-2005, 02:02 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eman'smom
Ok so what is/are your main concerns about intactness, so we can address them?

Looking like daddy/everyone else?

Cleanliness?

Medical/health?

Religious?

We actually had every intent of circing (I know can you ladies believe it), but we decided that before we had something done to our child (anything for any child) we wanted to be fully informed. Once we learned about it, it was an easy choice.

It was all but the religious (though there was some sentimentality along the religious line...but was not required by our doctrinal beliefs). And I think I just got debunked on those.

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#24 of 48 Old 09-14-2005, 02:57 PM
 
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I just wanted to comment on the female vs. male circ thing....it is actually the same thing, whether you cut a boy or you cut a girl. Now, yes, there are differences in the conditions - many African girls get cut out in the bush with rusty knives as opposed to in the hospital with better (but not sterile) conditions, so there are a lot more complications from infection, etc. Also, some cultures use dung and other gross substances to "promote" healing so that's not going to be very helpful.

Many of us here in the US believe that all female genital cuttings are the most severe kind where they take off the clitoris and all the external genitalia and sew the wound shut, leaving only a small opening. This is the most severe form, Type IV or Pharonic circumcision, as it's called. It's actually the least common type. Much more common (80% or so) is the Type I or Sunna circumcision, that takes off part or all of the external clitoris (the clitoris is much more than just the bud on the outside, it's also internal on either side of the vulva).

Women who are cut report having orgasms and are satisfied with their sex lives - even those who experience the worst form of cutting. (Run a google search on Hanny Lightfoot-Klein). Now, I'm guessing you have all your genitals intact and react with horror to the idea of losing ANY part of them, because all the bits are important. But for women from a cutting culture, they say the same things that circed men say here in the US - "I'm fine, my sex life is great, how could it be better, it's cleaner being cut, " etc. There's this myth that female circ destroys ALL of a woman's ability to experience sexual pleasure, and that's just not true. But you as an intact woman know that they have to be missing out on something if they don't have their full clitoris, for example.

Male circumcision destroys half of the erogeneous tissue of the penis. Does it take away all sexual pleasure? No, obviously not. (Unless you are one of the small percentage of boys whose circumcisions result in death or permanent disfigurement, loss of the head of the penis or the entire penis, for example. Relatively rare but happens. ) But if you remove half the nerve endings of the penis, it's gonna reduce sexual pleasure, just as if you cut away half or all of the clitoris.

So that's why male and female circ are really the same thing - they are about reducing sexual pleasure (why circ was introduced in this country, and why it continues in Africa) and removing tissue in the name of "cleanliness." They don't destroy all sexual pleasure but they destroy a good part of it. Whether you believe in God or in evolution - either God designed the human body and didn't make any mistakes, or nature did - but all the parts are there for a reason and cutting them away makes a big difference.

Here are a couple of links that discuss the similarities between female and male genital cutting: http://www.circumstitions.com/FGMvsMGM.html
http://www.fgmnetwork.org/intro/mgmfgm.html

You should pick up a copy of this month's Mothering magazine. It has a great pair of articles on circumcision. You should also visit http://research.cirp.org, which explains a lot more about the structure and function of the foreskin.

I actually think that the term "foreskin" itself is really problematic - it implies that it's somehow separate and apart from the penis, just "bonus skin" or something. The site I just posted the link to and the Mothering illustrations really get the point across that the foreskin is an integral part of the penis as a whole, not just some extra bit like the appendix.

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#25 of 48 Old 09-14-2005, 03:57 PM
 
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Quirky ~ That is an awesome post!

mommaduck ~ You sound like an awesome mama! Keep reading....you will make the right decision for your ds.
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#26 of 48 Old 09-14-2005, 04:34 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quirky, I admit I'd only heard of the extreme female "circumcisms". The ones where the clitoris was removed and the vagina stitched up. Also did not know that these women had sensation left there...the ones I had heard about have never managed orgasm. Wow, learn something new everyday. Btw, I read over the side by side comparison you linked to...thanks.

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#27 of 48 Old 09-14-2005, 04:36 PM
 
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Do you realize how low the circ rate is in the rest of the world? Do you think all the european men have infected penises? Just more to think about- the US is the only developed country that still routinely circs babies. Most others have outlawed it as inhumane. Would you have a girl circed? If not, why not?

-Angela
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#28 of 48 Old 09-14-2005, 04:42 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Funny thing. I was downloading a video link that someone posted (showing a circumcision being done) while I was reading threads. All of a sudden I heard a baby crying and knew it was done. My children are in the room with me, so of course they had to come running over to see what it was about. First they wanted to know what was going on, I explained it to them. Then they wanted me to replay it. All I heard was "poor baby" over and over from them. Okay, I think you convinced my kids.

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#29 of 48 Old 09-14-2005, 04:57 PM
 
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mamaduck, i just wanted to post and let you know that i am impressed with your willingness to have an open mind. i have to admit that i was worried when reading your first post, but was VERY glad to see your subsequent reactions!

keep reading, mama!
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#30 of 48 Old 09-14-2005, 05:07 PM
 
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Quote:
My oldest to this day get infections due to the foreskin still being there.
I don't know your son's medical history, but I think I can say that any infections aren't because of the foreskin that's still there. He would have been fine had he been left alone.

Midwife (CPM, LDM) and homeschooling mama to:
13yo ds   10yo dd  8yo ds and 6yo ds and 1yo ds  
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