Which is worse - to be circ'ed or not breastfed? - Page 3 - Mothering Forums
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#61 of 126 Old 10-26-2005, 03:16 PM
 
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That's kind of like, "if you could only save one of your children which one would you save?" I could never decide and would find a way to save both.

There two really important issues!
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#62 of 126 Old 10-26-2005, 03:17 PM
 
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interesting thread.

for me personally, I would ff and not cut. And I thank my lucky stars I never had to make the choice.

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#63 of 126 Old 10-26-2005, 03:21 PM
 
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What if the question were about our daughters?
Would you ff or have the surgery on your daughter's genitals as is done in some cultures?

Would that change your answer?
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#64 of 126 Old 10-26-2005, 03:39 PM
 
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I haven't read all the responses, but I would never circ. Also, having gone through not being able to BF - and pumping, supplimenting, etc... If I ever find myself in the same boat again, I'd pump again, and/or make my own formula, and give herbs, mineral supp, pro-biotics, etc...

So my final answer is that I'd *not* breastfeed over circing, but I wouldn't use crap formula either.
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#65 of 126 Old 10-26-2005, 03:45 PM
 
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I suspect that I may have inadvertantly sparked this discussion by bringing them up in comparison. : I would absolutely rather ff than circ. I think if I were my grown-up son, I'd rather have diabetes, asthma, digestive problems, and allergies than an incomplete sex life.

It bothers me that people (not necessarily around here) take breastfeeding so much more seriously than genital integrity. I do believe that both are of almost equal importance.

I don't think there are many real-life scenarios where one has to choose. I think in the case of husbands saying pick one or the other, she should start packing his bags for him.
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#66 of 126 Old 10-26-2005, 03:52 PM
 
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Originally Posted by TortelliniMama
: It strongly reminds me of questions like, "If someone broke into your house and said he was going to kill either your husband or your child, and you had to choose which, who would you save?" It doesn't seem to produce anything but turmoil over an extremely unlikely scenario. Well, that and guilt, because no matter which you choose, it's not going to be an answer you can feel "good" about.

Lisa, this post made me realize something that I have never realized before.

In the animal kingdom, mothers will fight ferociously with every ounce of their strength for the survival of their offspring but before they will sacrifice their own lives, they will abandon their offspring. That does not mean that they will not recieve mortal wounds and die later. They will abandon their own offspring because the species must survive and they can go on to reproduce again insuring the survival of the species.

Humans are different. Humans will mutilate the genitals of their very own offspring, the very center and source of reproduction and survival of the species thus, threatening the survival of the species. No other animal in the animal kingdom will do this.


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#67 of 126 Old 10-26-2005, 03:52 PM
 
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//
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#68 of 126 Old 10-26-2005, 03:53 PM
 
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I think in the case of husbands saying pick one or the other, she should start packing his bags for him.
ITA!!
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#69 of 126 Old 10-26-2005, 03:55 PM
 
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Originally Posted by paquerette
I think if I were my grown-up son, I'd rather have diabetes, asthma, digestive problems, and allergies than an incomplete sex life.
Really?

TripMom . . . . . loving mom : to DS (7) and BBG (4.5)
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#70 of 126 Old 10-26-2005, 03:59 PM
 
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Formula, hands-down.

Leaving my son intact is the ONE parenting decision that I feel 100% positive about at all times. I can't even say THAT about breastfeeding.
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#71 of 126 Old 10-26-2005, 04:02 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Galatea
This thread was not designed to piss people off or to out anyone for having the "wrong" answer. B/c there isn't a right or wrong answer, and as people pointed out, there are more than 2 choices. Your answer tells what is important to you, and that is all. Not what is the most important thing for everyone. Don't get too upset... I just wanted to think about it. Also, I meant to put the same thread in the bfing forum, but forgot. I wonder if the responses would be different?
This thead has been an eye opener for me and shows just how much further we have to go to end the needless cosmetic modification of men's bodies simply to suit someone else's whim. We have a much longer way to go than I realized.

I also noticed that most have studiously ignored my question of "What if it were your genitals under the same conditions that were being cut off instead of your baby's?"



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#72 of 126 Old 10-26-2005, 04:15 PM
 
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I also want to say that, while formula carries real risks, circ is a guarantee of damage.

Gimme even a 75 percent chance of lifelong harm over a 100 percent one any day of the week.
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#73 of 126 Old 10-26-2005, 04:26 PM
 
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The more I think about it, the more I choose option three. Tell my dh that he has issues and needs help if he insists upon either mutilating our son, or denying him my breasts. If he refused, then I'd boot him out.
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#74 of 126 Old 10-26-2005, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Galatea
Or what if you had a friend who was planning to circ and ff, and you knew she was not going to take too much lecturing from you... what would you advocate more strongly for? What battle would you pick?

Oh, the intactivism, definitely. There are plenty of people out there advocating breastfeeding, so it's likely she'd get that kind of info from someone else. But I may be the ONLY person she comes in contact with who says, "Leave your son intact."

"Our task is not to see the future, but to enable it."
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#75 of 126 Old 10-26-2005, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Frankly Speaking
I also noticed that most have studiously ignored my question of "What if it were your genitals under the same conditions that were being cut off instead of your baby's?"
My original answer was to not circ and provide my baby with a wetnurse.
I also get upset that women do not care about male genitals. It is the one part of my male counterparts that is sacred and that makes them males and I could never even think of harming or letting someone else harm my son, father, husband, brother, or any male.

Women keep saying, "Well, my circ'd man has a member that works!"
if it didn't work, would ya be with him? And just because it "works" doesn't mean it is okay.

Yeah, you can cut your clit off and still have a working vagina, does that mean it's okay?
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#76 of 126 Old 10-26-2005, 04:37 PM
 
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I also noticed that most have studiously ignored my question of "What if it were your genitals under the same conditions that were being cut off instead of your baby's?"
I didn't read the first post where you posed this question... Was it a question of would I get myself circed if it meant both BFing and keeping DC intact? Or if it came down to baby or me getting cut?

In the first, I'd pump and/or make homemade formula and leave us both whole.
In the second case, I'd get cut over baby anyday.
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#77 of 126 Old 10-26-2005, 05:09 PM
 
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Galatea- Thanks for explaining why you posted the ? I just found it to be very judgmental with no good answer either way.

mamaintheboonies- Thanks for your insight!
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#78 of 126 Old 10-26-2005, 06:16 PM
 
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Ugh, I can't choose!! If I would have had to decide on an implulse decision, I think I would have ff and left my little boy intact. There was NO WAY IN HE** I would have let someone take a knife to him.

Sara Mama to DS (6) and DS (4)
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#79 of 126 Old 10-26-2005, 07:17 PM
 
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I would never do either-

To me and my DH a child has a human right to be safe, intact and breastfeed. Like my siggy says it is a human rights issue- but for some reason people (as in the media) try to make it a "hip" or "cool" issue and forget we are talking about a human who should have the right to only the best treatment.

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#80 of 126 Old 10-26-2005, 07:19 PM
 
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Originally Posted by paquerette
I think if I were my grown-up son, I'd rather have diabetes, asthma, digestive problems, and allergies than an incomplete sex life.



Really?




I wouldn't want my sons to have the health problems and a shorter life. If there had to be a choice it would be breastfeeding. I have seen kids from family members and friends totally formula fed, have tons of health problems, tubes in ears, severe diaper rashes, immune problems, etc. My oldest had never been to a Dr. for any illness untill he was 4 1/2. None of my kids ever had diaper rashes, except an occasionally pink bottom which would go away by next diaper change by putting a salve on it.


Males in general are pretty proud of their penis. Some even have names for them. If there are so many circumcised men out there having incomplete sex lives then why aren't they the ones advocating against circumcision? After all it's there sex life!!
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#81 of 126 Old 10-27-2005, 06:30 PM
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I've removed posts that were inappropriate and or taking the thread off topic. Let's please keep to the discussion posted by the OP. If you take issue with the question and cannot post appropriately then please refrain from posting.

This thread is reopened for discussion.


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#82 of 126 Old 10-27-2005, 07:19 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Frank
I also noticed that most have studiously ignored my question of "What if it were your genitals under the same conditions that were being cut off instead of your baby's?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by aira
I didn't read the first post where you posed this question... Was it a question of would I get myself circed if it meant both BFing and keeping DC intact? Or if it came down to baby or me getting cut?

In the first, I'd pump and/or make homemade formula and leave us both whole.
In the second case, I'd get cut over baby anyday.

Here's where I'm coming from on this:

I don't believe a baby cares where the milk/formula comes from or tastes like, they just want to be fed, so it's the mother who wants breast feeding. Forget about the health benefits for now.

There has never been a baby born that wanted painful cutting done anywhere on his body. This also falls into the category of a mother's wants.

If it's all about Mom's want, why shouldn't it be Mom who gets cut? If it were you that wanted to breast feed, would you give up your external genitalia and the corresponding sexuality plus endure excruiating pain during and after the procedure to breast feed?



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#83 of 126 Old 10-27-2005, 07:45 PM
 
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Frank I appreciate your POV but it's not always so cut and dry.

For me and my children and our unique situation the simple fact of the matter is that I chose LIFE for my children. If two of my five children were FF they would have been dead (possibly three since my new baby has very serious health issue's and severe allergies to milk AND soy).

So in my situation in my circumstance with our history I would chose LIFE, period. That is cut and dry. If it meant cutting off my child's arm or mine, if it meant removing any part of my body I would chose to do that so that my child would live. Take anything off of me that you want with or without anesthesia, I don't care, I just want my baby to live. I've been in a situation where I watched my child nearly die before my eyes and I would give anything and do anything to ensure that never happened again.

I am as anti-circ as you'll find them. It makes me absolutely sick that I cut DS1 and it kills me that all of my sibs and sibs-in-law have chosen to circ. Still, when it comes to life and death it's not much of a competition.

~ Patti
mom of 5
4 intact - 2 boys, 2 girls
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#84 of 126 Old 10-27-2005, 08:02 PM
 
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Originally Posted by KatScarlett
Frank I appreciate your POV but it's not always so cut and dry.

For me and my children and our unique situation the simple fact of the matter is that I chose LIFE for my children. If two of my five children were FF they would have been dead (possibly three since my new baby has very serious health issue's and severe allergies to milk AND soy).

So in my situation in my circumstance with our history I would chose LIFE, period. That is cut and dry. If it meant cutting off my child's arm or mine, if it meant removing any part of my body I would chose to do that so that my child would live. Take anything off of me that you want with or without anesthesia, I don't care, I just want my baby to live. I've been in a situation where I watched my child nearly die before my eyes and I would give anything and do anything to ensure that never happened again.

I am as anti-circ as you'll find them. It makes me absolutely sick that I cut DS1 and it kills me that all of my sibs and sibs-in-law have chosen to circ. Still, when it comes to life and death it's not much of a competition.

~ Patti
mom of 5
4 intact - 2 boys, 2 girls
1 cut

But Patti, baby boys die from circumcision complications as well. Just as you didn't know before hand that you would be risking their lives by ff, every time a circumcision is preformed on an infant, their lives are being put at risk, and you would never know before hand if your baby was going to be the unlucky one that would end up dead (or seriously injured or sick) from the circumcision that you chose for him.

Ultimately it is not about choosing life or death, it is one bad choice or another. One avenue to risk the health/life of your child or another. Like trying to choose between the lesser of two evils. Because what it boils down to is either choice (ff or circ) could end badly.

Take care,
Tara

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#85 of 126 Old 10-27-2005, 08:07 PM
 
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easy- I'd rather FF than circ- I am just not physically capable of inflicting such awful pain on my son and I don't want his sexuality or his relationship with a future lover to be damaged. (My dp was FF and circ'd and I can tell you that the circ has caused him (and me) many more problems than him being FF many moons ago- I know his health might be better if he were BF but I look at it like this- I know lots of people who were FF, most of whom (including myself) are pretty healthy- I don't know one person who was circ'd who has full sexual function (although many aren't aware of it)- I guess it's like roulette with one bullet or roulette with a bullet in every chamber- FF might kill or make some people unhealthy but circ always harms their sexuality, can kill as well, and is extremely psychologically harmful.) JMO

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#86 of 126 Old 10-27-2005, 08:21 PM
 
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Originally Posted by momof3sweeties
Originally Posted by paquerette
I think if I were my grown-up son, I'd rather have diabetes, asthma, digestive problems, and allergies than an incomplete sex life.



Really?




I wouldn't want my sons to have the health problems and a shorter life. If there had to be a choice it would be breastfeeding. I have seen kids from family members and friends totally formula fed, have tons of health problems, tubes in ears, severe diaper rashes, immune problems, etc. My oldest had never been to a Dr. for any illness untill he was 4 1/2. None of my kids ever had diaper rashes, except an occasionally pink bottom which would go away by next diaper change by putting a salve on it.


Males in general are pretty proud of their penis. Some even have names for them. If there are so many circumcised men out there having incomplete sex lives then why aren't they the ones advocating against circumcision? After all it's there sex life!!
Go to this website: www.**************************. This will tell you all you want to know about how circumcision changes the act of intercourse so that it is less satisfying for both men and women. Warning: don't access it when your kids are around, because parts of it are pretty explicit. You will, however, get quite an education. That site and this very forum turned me from being vaguely anti-circ. to very anti-circ. Circumcision hurts both men and women for life.
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#87 of 126 Old 10-27-2005, 08:28 PM
 
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Originally Posted by calngavinsmom
But Patti, baby boys die from circumcision complications as well. Just as you didn't know before hand that you would be risking their lives by ff, every time a circumcision is preformed on an infant, their lives are being put at risk, and you would never know before hand if your baby was going to be the unlucky one that would end up dead (or seriously injured or sick) from the circumcision that you chose for him.

Ultimately it is not about choosing life or death, it is one bad choice or another. One avenue to risk the health/life of your child or another. Like trying to choose between the lesser of two evils. Because what it boils down to is either choice (ff or circ) could end badly.

Take care,
Tara
Tara, I totally understand and accept that. Circ DOES have inherint risks, it's SURGERY for crying out loud! That's why I learned more and didn't do it to my other children after having made a bad and misinformed decision (on advice from my Dr.'s) the first time. There are risks, baby boys DO die from it. It's horrible and wrong and IMO should be illegal in the same way that FGM is. Trust me, I get it. It is not something I could ever do again and that I regret horribly having done at all. Like others have said, thank God we don't HAVE to chose. I am a breastfeeding, baby wearing, co-sleeping, non-cutting parent and will always be that way... to however many children we have.

What I'm saying is that for ME in MY case alone I would risk cutting off a part of myself or my child because of the known and extremely high risks of not BF in my particular family. My family is a somewhat unique case. I know there are children that die every single year because they were not BF but it's not common. Heck, I was FF and I did okay. I have health issue's now but that's just life. However going into a situation where you know that the very possible outcome is death you have to do as you said, chose the lesser of two evils. In my case it would be to chose to go ahead and cut myself or my child, just let him/her live.

I just feel like when people say things like "I know FF people that turned out just fine" they don't understand that in the big picture that's NOT ALWAYS the case. It's something near and dear to me because of my experiences. I hope others can respect that.

~ Patti
mom of 5
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#88 of 126 Old 10-27-2005, 09:28 PM
 
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Originally Posted by KatScarlett
Tara, I totally understand and accept that. Circ DOES have inherint risks, it's SURGERY for crying out loud! That's why I learned more and didn't do it to my other children after having made a bad and misinformed decision (on advice from my Dr.'s) the first time. There are risks, baby boys DO die from it. It's horrible and wrong and IMO should be illegal in the same way that FGM is. Trust me, I get it. It is not something I could ever do again and that I regret horribly having done at all. Like others have said, thank God we don't HAVE to chose. I am a breastfeeding, baby wearing, co-sleeping, non-cutting parent and will always be that way... to however many children we have.

What I'm saying is that for ME in MY case alone I would risk cutting off a part of myself or my child because of the known and extremely high risks of not BF in my particular family. My family is a somewhat unique case. I know there are children that die every single year because they were not BF but it's not common. Heck, I was FF and I did okay. I have health issue's now but that's just life. However going into a situation where you know that the very possible outcome is death you have to do as you said, chose the lesser of two evils. In my case it would be to chose to go ahead and cut myself or my child, just let him/her live.

I just feel like when people say things like "I know FF people that turned out just fine" they don't understand that in the big picture that's NOT ALWAYS the case. It's something near and dear to me because of my experiences. I hope others can respect that.

~ Patti
mom of 5
Patti, I totally respect that, I was only trying to understand,(in my own head) because as I see it, just as your dd(or anyones dd could have) had an unknown condition that made ff dangerous for her, you(or anyone) could have a son who could have had an unknown condition(like a blood disorder) that made circumcision even more dangerous (than it usually is) for him.

I was not trying to minimize your situation or really even question your response at all, just hoping to understand you POV better. Sorry if I put you on the spot.

Take care,
Tara

Tara Momma to Callum and Gavin
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#89 of 126 Old 10-27-2005, 10:05 PM
 
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Originally Posted by calngavinsmom
Patti, I totally respect that, I was only trying to understand,(in my own head) because as I see it, just as your dd(or anyones dd could have) had an unknown condition that made ff dangerous for her, you(or anyone) could have a son who could have had an unknown condition(like a blood disorder) that made circumcision even more dangerous (than it usually is) for him.

I was not trying to minimize your situation or really even question your response at all, just hoping to understand you POV better. Sorry if I put you on the spot.

Take care,
Tara
Tara, thanks for that.

Also just so you know I did circ my oldest son and as it turned out he did have a condition that could have easily made having been cut life-threatening for him. He had a rare blood disorder called neutropenia, which means that he didn't have enough white blood cells to fight off infection. If his circ had became even the tiniest little bit infected or there was any kind of complication what-so-ever it could have easily been disastrous for my DS! Unfortunately we had no idea his white cell count was compromised until well after his circ. We actually found out when he was 7 weeks old and admitted to the hospital with a severe pneumonia. They did a routine blood test and were stunned at what they saw, they did it again and his numbers were even worse. He had almost no immune system (thank GOD that I had chosen to BF him!).

Because of my experience with that I have actually been working for YEARS to get the hospitals in our area to run routine CBC's before performing circ's. It's a simple blood test that can be done quickly and cheaply to check for any kind of anomoly before putting a newborn under the knife. As I tell the local hospitals here all the time the ONLY surgery a hospital would even consider doing without one iota of medical background on the patient on which they intent to operate is circ, and that's just WRONG! I am adamently opposed to circ at all but if they HAVE to do them I think the only responsible way to even consider surgery on a newborn is with the most preliminary and basic of blood work ups to get some kind of idea of the general health and well being of the child beforehand. If I had any idea that circ could have been even the slightest danger to DS1 I would have never for one moment have considered it. I think hospital's owe it to parents to first and foremost impress upon them that circ is in no way medically necessary or beneficial and then secondly, if the parents insist upon it, they should insist on routine blood work to establish some kind of medical awareness about the child and his well being.

Like I said, I still think it should be illegal but we're not there yet.

~ Patti
mom of 5
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#90 of 126 Old 10-27-2005, 10:55 PM
 
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First off, there is no point to this question. I would neither circ or FF. If I lived in some kind of society where it was a law to do one or the other, or I had a SO who insisted on one, I would choose not to have children.
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