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#1 of 96 Old 11-27-2005, 04:27 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I am losing my mind over this. I found out a few weeks ago that my husband and I are expecting a boy and ever since that moment I have been absolutely terrified of confronting my husband about it.

I can't even bear the idea of it and he is dead set on having the baby circumcized. He is usually the sweetest person, but when it comes to this he is "putting his foot down" and refuses to even listen to reason.

You have to take into consideration that we were both raised jewish, and he feels as though it is important in that respect.

The thing is, I just don't have faith anymore. When our daughter died this June i lost any and all faith that I ever had ... and I am so afraid of this procedure for our little peanut. what if something went wrong? i am so scared and i feel so alone. i don't understand how he could be willing to take this risk after everything that we have been through.

i know that this is going to be the end of us if i don't give in, and still i don't want to.

i just don't know what to say or do. he won't even hear me out.
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#2 of 96 Old 11-27-2005, 04:38 AM
 
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Oh, Jenna, I was going to say something facetious like "you can always get another husband but circ is irreversible" but that wouldn't tell you how sorry I am that your daughter died. I know how scary the next pregnancy is and how you hold your breath, afraid to hope that a live baby will nurse at your breast.

Get your courage up and tell your husband how scared you are. He's scared, too, and you've been through so much together. I think pictures are the quickest, fastest way to convince people. Get the book "Just Say "No" to Circ". Show him the Jewish Circ website. Let him know that many wise Jewish people, including Alan Alda (actor), campaign for intact genitalia. He'd probably be impressed with the Doctors Opposing Circumcision website, too. Blessings to you,
Baybee
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#3 of 96 Old 11-27-2005, 04:45 AM
 
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You are due on my son's second birthday! I'm sorry you are in such a difficult spot. I can't imagine the grief you are going through after losing a child. If your DH won't hear you out, write him a note explaining how you feel, then he can't interrupt you. If it comes down to it, you can get a court order protecting your son from circumcision. It has happened before, I think Frank has information on that. I had to argue with DH a long time before he finally came around. DH just needed a lot of information to convince him to change his mind.

Listen to your gut instinct. If you have a bad feeling about something, don't do it to your child. There is no medical reason for circumcision. Your baby is depending on you to protect him.

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#4 of 96 Old 11-27-2005, 04:49 AM
 
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I will be : for your family.

Mama to 9 so far:Mother of Joey (20), Dominick (13), Abigail (11), Angelo (8), Mylee (6), Delainey (3), Colton (2) and Baby 8 and Baby 9 coming sometime in July 2013.   If evolution were true, mothers would have three arms!

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#5 of 96 Old 11-27-2005, 04:49 AM
 
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{{{mama}}} I'm so sorry for your loss of your baby girl.

My dh gave me a lot of grief over our first dd's name. He was a total horse's butt about it. He told me that he would choose the name by himself and not tell me the name until after the paperwork was done. He figured that I would be "out of it" right after the birth and that would give him the opportunity. We fought about this bitterly, as you can well imagine, for weeks -- torture for a pregnant woman, but not like facing circumcision.

Anyway, I got so upset that I called the hospital and found out that I could just put "unknown" or something like that for the father's name. In other words, if he continued to push his outrageous demand, I could just say he was not the father and that he had no right to fill out the paperwork. When I put it to him that way, dh backed down and admitted that the name he selected was one he knew I would hate. I did hate it -- it was a feminization of his nephew's name, chosen to please his mother. Not even a real name, a made up name with an ending. So it was even more horrible than you can imagine. He was willing to freak out his pregnant wife and do something totally bizarre to make his mother happy? Let's not even go there.

I'm not suggesting you do that, but it is something to remember. He has to prove that this baby is his son.

Would he really divorce you for not circumcising your son? If so, then he is really bullying you on this.

I admit that I do not understand the Jewish angle at all, plus I have two daughters, so I don't even understand the boy angle.

I hope it goes well.
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#6 of 96 Old 11-27-2005, 04:55 AM
 
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's to you!

tell your dh your fears and that if your ds wants to be circ'd for religious reasons, he can always do it later in life when he's old enough to make both body modification and spiritual choices for himself.

love and peace.

mama to two girls and due in November!
: Circumcision can never be undone :
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#7 of 96 Old 11-27-2005, 04:59 AM
 
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I wanted to give you support, and not freak you out at first, so I didn't answer the original question. Well, my answer would be yes. If the only way to protect my son from circumcision was to get a divorce, yes, I would get a divorce. Happily, it will rarely get to that point for any couple. You two have a long time to talk about it. Also, don't let your families gang up on you. If they are Jewish, like you said, don't even bring it up to them.

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#8 of 96 Old 11-27-2005, 05:43 AM
 
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You've got awhile to "work" on him before things get as drastic as divorce.

In my state, if you are married, you MUST put your husband's name on the birth certificate, even if you (and he!) say it's not biologically his kid. It's an archaic law written in the days before DNA testing, but still very much in effect.

If he's pushing for a hospital circ, you are the one in control there. The father doesn't get to do anything with the babe without your say-so until you guys get the certificate and leave the hospital.

As far as his finding a mohel, I'd do some research on whether a mohel will or can do a circ over the mother's objections. Although nothing prevents your DH from from scheduling a circ appointment with a doctor's office after the birth. But the longer you can delay this, the harder it is to get it done.

In the end, knowing what I do now, I WOULD divorce over circumcision. I couldn't stay with a man who insisted on cutting off part of my baby for no good reason... not only would it permanently damage my baby, it would also poison our marriage.

But it's not easy to leave a man when you are newly postpartum or pregnant. Luckily, you have some time to work with until then.

Hang in there, mama. Give your DH information, talk to him about your faith (or lack thereof), get to the bottom of what he believes and why. Sometimes, there is no resolving religious issues within a marriage. And sometimes you can agree to disagree.

But sometimes, you can't.
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#9 of 96 Old 11-27-2005, 05:58 AM
 
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Yes. No question. There is no way that I would even WANT to stay married to a man that would force me to do that to my child.

Listen to your instincts, they are there for a reason, there are so many mothers in the sticky regretting what they did, please don't let the next be you...

There was another Jewish mother, called Sommer, who felt the same way earlier this year, she was having nightmares about the Bris, and the whole family ganged up on her, so she let it go ahead.

Here is her story:
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=286940

And how she felt after she allowed it to happen:
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=319269

I hope that you manage to resolve things before they get to the divorce stage though, it must be rotten to be in such a state when it should be such a time of joy.
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#10 of 96 Old 11-27-2005, 06:24 AM
 
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I remember that poster, and was just thinking of her and her babe.
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#11 of 96 Old 11-27-2005, 07:10 AM
 
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I would divorce over it because it's abuse IMO... hopefully it won't get to that point for you though....

love and peace.

mama to two girls and due in November!
: Circumcision can never be undone :
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#12 of 96 Old 11-27-2005, 08:36 AM
 
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I don't see how divorcing your husband is going to solve the problem. A divorced man could still get his son circumcized without your consent, right? You're going to have to talk to him, educate him about the procedure, and hope you can bring him around.
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#13 of 96 Old 11-27-2005, 09:57 AM
 
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I am so sorry for your loss...
No, I wouldn't divorce over it. Take my son's father away & shake up everyones life over this?? No. I also wouldn't circ. By divorcing you're also making it easier for him. As long as my baby doesn't leave me - he stays intact.

~Marie : Mom to DS(11), DS(10), DD(8), DD(4), DD(2), & Happily Married to DH 12 yrs.!
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#14 of 96 Old 11-27-2005, 10:47 AM
 
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Oh Jenna, I am so sorry for the loss of your beautiful daughter Jordanna. I just looked at your memorial website and she was the most enchanting little girl! My heart is breaking for you.

I cannot even fathom the pain you are going through, having lost your daughter and now facing your dh on the circ issue. Have you sat down and talked to him about it, not trying to change his mind per se but just letting it all pour out about how you feel about circumcision and about protecting your baby boy on the way?

I don't think divorce is going to prevent your son from being circed if your dh is bound and determined to do it- sadly it has happened that a father who was never even married to the boy's mother was able to get a court to deny a motion for a protective order to prevent him being circumcised. The courts are really not going to step in where it's a question of religious practice, too.

That doesn't mean you can't let your dh know how serious you are about the issue, but I think the best bet is clearly communicating to him how strongly you feel about it, and making him read the research about it, and letting him know he does not have the right and your permission to harm your newborn baby.

I am so sorry you are facing this horribly traumatic issue. No one should ever have to face this pressure on top of the loss of a child.


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#15 of 96 Old 11-27-2005, 10:59 AM
 
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#17 of 96 Old 11-27-2005, 11:39 AM
 
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Here's a website for you: www.jewsagainstcircumcision.org.
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#18 of 96 Old 11-27-2005, 12:09 PM
 
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s to you Momma! Both for your lost babe and the turmoil that your family is in now concerning your baby-boy-to-be. It should be such a happy time for you, expecting a son and like many others it is tainted by the pressure from your dh concerning circumcision . I really wish it just wasn't an option.

In regards to your question, no I would not initiate a divorce over circumcision. I would never allow it to happen(circumcision) to a son of mine but if my dh was that adament that he would be circumcised that he would divorce me, so be it. If he had so little respect for me that he would leave me because of a compelling need to put a scar on my child, I wouldn't want him to be in my life anyway.

If there is any way you think you could reach him, let us know. There are plenty of resources in the sticky "Web Resources" at the top of the forum that might strike a chord with him. If he has any specific concerns that we could help you find resources to adress, please ask. You have tons of support here.

Take care,
Tara

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#19 of 96 Old 11-27-2005, 12:25 PM
 
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I'm so sorry you are having to go through this after your loss. he should at least have enough respect for you to hear your opinion and consider it. Maybe you could write him a letter? sometimes that works better with my dp. Include the reasons you simply cannot have this done to your son.

Does he want to have it done in the hospital? I've had friends say the had it done b/c they are Jewish and yet did they have a bris? no. they had it done in the hospital which hold no religious meaning whatsoever.

to answer your question, yes I would get divorced over it. I would give my life to protect my son from the extreme pain and lifelong sexual damage of circumcision. I could not live or love someone who wanted to mutilate my son- I would have no choice but to leave.

I would tell my husband that he had to choose- did he want me to stay and have in intact son or did he want us to leave?

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#20 of 96 Old 11-27-2005, 01:11 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by calngavinsmom
:
In regards to your question, no I would not initiate a divorce over circumcision. I would never allow it to happen(circumcision) to a son of mine but if my dh was that adament that he would be circumcised that he would divorce me, so be it.
:
:

and ps- my dh is also jewish. he didn't stop being jewish when he refused to get our sons cut. my sons are still jewish in the bosom of our extended family, gentile mama or not. let him know this doesn't have to be this way.
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#21 of 96 Old 11-27-2005, 02:03 PM
 
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Jenna,

My DH is Jewish & DS is intact. We had a lovely, peaceful Brit Shalom ceremony with a Rabbi in lieu of the Bris. I am thankful everyday that DS is intact, especially the more I learn about circumcision. DH needed to do a lot of reading to become convinced not to circ, but he too is 100% clear that we made the right decision.

About Brit Shalom
Brit Without Milah

I have several links I've collected for Jewish friends...maybe some of these will help.

I especially like the book "Questioning Circumcision: A Jewish Perspective"

Top 10 Values of Judaism
(click on "Jewish" link on left side, then on "Top 10" link at top right)
http://www.jewsagainstcircumcision.org/

Jewish Circ Info

Circumcision: A Source of Jewish Pain

Letter from Dr. Jenny Goodman

A Mother Questions Brit Milla

Circumcision: A Jewish Feminist Perspective

Mothering Magazine Article - Fleiss

Separated At Birth

Anatomy of the Penis, Mechanics of Intercourse

How Male Circumcision May be Affecting Your Love Life

Video - Whose Body, Whose Rights?

Circ Video - Intact's Circumcision Video Online

___________________________________
SAHM to a spectacular little boy, born 5/2003 :bf Feb 2006!
"When you teach your son, you teach your son's son." ~ The Talmud
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#22 of 96 Old 11-27-2005, 02:13 PM
 
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Yes, in fact I told him so when I was 5 mos pg with ds1 and dh and I had a screaming argument about our first child being circumcised or not. I told him I would leave him and he would never see the baby if he insisted on this. This made him see how serious I was and he finally agreed to read the material I had. The material changed his mind.

Regarding putting your husband's name on the birth certificate: most states presume that a child BORN while parents are married is issue of the marriage (is the husband's child). But, if you divorced before the child was born, you would not have to put dh on the birth certificate. I had a case like this once.

I know it is tough. Your dh is operating under some delusions: 1, that an uncircumcised child is not Jewish. This is simply not true, and rabbis say so. 2, that circumcision is healthful. Again, not true. Circumcision removes healthy and happy flesh. 3, that he was circ'ed and he is fine. Again, simply not true. Did you know victims of female circumcision in Africa say that they have good sex lives and orgasm without having clitorises? Yet would you choose to live without yours? Of course not. Yet your dh is missing the best part of his penis and so he is not qualified to say that it is okay to not have it. He doesn't even know.

Saying something louder and not listening to the other side does not make a person right. In fact, if he is unable to listen to your side, then that means his side is very weak. If he had good reasons to circumcise your child, he would be able to present them to you and not be worried. But he can't, and no matter what he finds to argue for circumcision, there will always be a better reason not to. Tell us what he says and we will tell you the answers.

DS1 2004 ~ DS2 2005 ~ DD1 2008 ~ DS3 2010 ~ DD2 due Dec. 2014
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#23 of 96 Old 11-27-2005, 02:31 PM
 
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I'm so sorry about the loss of your daughter. I hear that when people lose a child, the liklihood of divorce goes way up. Could his refusal to put off the circ be a projection of this?

My SO is Muslim and I've made it clear that if we ever have a son there will be no one cutting my baby. But I don't know if he's really thinking about it since we're not planning.

Still, if he did it against my wishes, I don't think I'd leave him. I'd hate him for a long time, though. If he did it, it would be out of (misguided IMO) love. I think if we ever do end up pregnant, I'll insist that we let the child decide.

I hope the two of you can stay together despite the tragic loss of your baby. Please get counselling if you haven't already. It might save the marriage.
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#24 of 96 Old 11-27-2005, 03:33 PM
 
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Oh, sweetie, I just read your websites. I know you have it in you to fight for your son's right to bodily integrity. Just never, ever, ever let anyone take him out of your arms. Be ready to kick scream and bite. It is absolutely your right to do whatever it takes to protect your baby. Get in touch with your mama bear self.

Tis the season, for hot apple cider!
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#25 of 96 Old 11-27-2005, 04:29 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MAMom
Jenna,

My DH is Jewish & DS is intact. We had a lovely, peaceful Brit Shalom ceremony with a Rabbi in lieu of the Bris. I am thankful everyday that DS is intact, especially the more I learn about circumcision. DH needed to do a lot of reading to become convinced not to circ, but he too is 100% clear that we made the right decision.

About Brit Shalom
Brit Without Milah

I have several links I've collected for Jewish friends...maybe some of these will help.

I especially like the book "Questioning Circumcision: A Jewish Perspective"

Top 10 Values of Judaism
(click on "Jewish" link on left side, then on "Top 10" link at top right)
http://www.jewsagainstcircumcision.org/

Jewish Circ Info

Circumcision: A Source of Jewish Pain

Letter from Dr. Jenny Goodman

A Mother Questions Brit Milla

Circumcision: A Jewish Feminist Perspective

Mothering Magazine Article - Fleiss

Separated At Birth

Anatomy of the Penis, Mechanics of Intercourse

How Male Circumcision May be Affecting Your Love Life

Video - Whose Body, Whose Rights?

Circ Video - Intact's Circumcision Video Online

___________________________________
SAHM to a spectacular little boy, born 5/2003 :bf Feb 2006!
"When you teach your son, you teach your son's son." ~ The Talmud

Thank you so much for all of those links. I just emailed them to him - I just hope that he looks.

I have mde up my mind that there is no way he is going to bully me into this, no matter what the costs.

I know in my heart that our marriage would be over the minute a hand was laid on this baby anyway - and better that he have a broken home and be intact than have a broken home and be circ.

Thank you all so much for the support. We keep a pregnancy journal and the comments have been piling up there as well - and i KNOW that he reads those... so I just hope that something clicks in his head before April.

If you have a moment to leave your thoguhts for him to see, I would be very greatful.

warmly,
jenna

www.girl138.com/peanut
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#26 of 96 Old 11-27-2005, 04:53 PM
 
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I left a comment on your blog.

My heart goes out to you, for the loss of your daughter, and for the fear you have right now. Your son is due on my birthday
I know this is hard, but you have to stand up for your son. You have to be his voice while he has none.
Let us know your husband's reaction to the links.

And for the record, yes, I would get a divorce over the issue. If I allowed myself to be bullied by him, or if he had it done while knowing my feelings on it, I would resent him for the rest of my life. I couldn't get over something like that. I would have to go.
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#27 of 96 Old 11-27-2005, 04:56 PM
 
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Jenna, here's an article for you (not your dh) to read, that may help you understand where he's coming from:

Vincent Bach on the Vulnerability of Men

I am sure your dh doesn't want to cause you or your baby any pain, but he's probably got a lot of layers of denial covering any ability to recognize that circumcision is painful and unnecessary. There's at least three layers of denial:

1) That his/your religion requires it and therefore it's got to be fine because Jews have been circing for several thousand years.

2) That his parents had him circed and he probably doesn't want to think they could ever have done anything to harm him.

3) That he is circed and is therefore missing the most sensitive part of his penis. No man alive wants to admit that his penis is anything less than 100% operational.

I didn't have to deal with the religious aspect but I do have a circed dh who, after reading what I've told him to read and watching the video STILL thinks that "well, circ isn't the worst thing that could happen to a baby and it's a parent's right." He didn't fight me on circing our son and wouldn't circ any future sons if I were to die tomorrow and he were to remarry, he advocated to try to keep our nephew from getting circed by talking to my BIL and SIL....but he still at some fundamental level just. doesn't. get. it. The denial that a) his parents could have done something harmful to him and b) that his penis is anything less than it could or should be is still SO deep, even after 3.5 years of hearing me rant and rave about circ.

I am not saying for one second you should give in on the circ issue, but try listening to your dh with compassion for the baby he was getting circed against his will and the man he is hearing (implicitly) that there's something "less than" about his penis and you may be able to find the way to his heart on this issue, short of pulling out the big guns of "I'm leaving."

I wish I could help ease your burden on this. No pregnant woman should have to go through this trauma, let alone you, pregnant and grieving at the same time. Please be very gentle with yourself right now. It's OK even to take a break from the issue for a little while if it's making you too sad or mad or crazy. Whatever you need to do for yourself, do.

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#28 of 96 Old 11-27-2005, 05:29 PM
 
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It sounds like you are going through such a very difficult time. Maybe you and your husband could see someone together? I can not imagine how frightened and anxious and excited you both must be to receive this child after you lost your daughter.

You both are probably not able to clearly hear oneanother on this topic as it can be so hard for couples to come eye to eye when feeling so fearful.

I think that if you can see someone together to help you both communicate and hear he may come to see how important this issue is for you. To answer the question of divorce, I do not see circ as a reason to divorce. But I do think that the pattern of not listening to what you are saying or understanding your fear could be really isolating and could lead to divorce. My hubby and I do not fundamentally agree about circ, however he knows that I feel very very strongly about not circumcising. Because he loves me and because he knows how important the issue is to me he will not have the children circed.


We had to leave the topic for a while ourselves. I would say deal with the communication and Isolation and he will probably come around.

Im sorry, it must be so hard to be missing your daughter, welcoming a new child, and dealing with this.

hang in there mama.
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#29 of 96 Old 11-27-2005, 05:35 PM
 
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This is a hypothetical question that was not hypothetical for me.

I was engaged to be married to a wonderful woman in June, 2002. She had a grandson that was born in Oct., 2001. I fought intensely before he was born not to have him circumcised but the Mother (future DIL) would hear nothing of it. She would even hang up on my phone calls, wouldn't read links or printed material I sent her. I knew that she would never be a welcome guest in my home. From before his birth to March, 2002, when I ended the engagement, my fiance' and I fought bitterly over this. This was the third fight we had had in almost 6 years of being together and the only one that lasted more than a couple of days. She still has not seen the light and I suspect she never will. I can not be married to a woman like that and will not. We are still friends but we carefully avoid bringing up the subject but marriage or any kind of intimate relationship is completely off the table and not up for discussion.

As intensely as I feel about this issue, I don't think I could have a meaninful relationship with a woman who didn't have the same stance.



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#30 of 96 Old 11-27-2005, 06:52 PM
 
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I am not Jewish but my DH tried to use the excuse "It is a tradition in my family to circ" to which I replied "It is not a tradition, it is because they didn't know NOT to do it!!"

But yes, I would leave my DH to protect my son from circing. The needs of my child come before the wants of my husband every day of the year. DH knows this and though he is not happy about the not circing thing, he didn't argue with me about it. I told him I was seriously concerned that he could send his son to have comestic surgery without pain relief so flippantly.
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