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#1 of 51 Old 01-18-2006, 05:19 AM - Thread Starter
 
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http://asp.noterik.com/video/michael/CIRCUMCISION.mov

Everyone should see this.

It is a sort of video blog program, produced by Michael Schaap, a journalist and filmaker based in Amsterdam, Holland. It's about 35 minutes long, and FREE. There is footage of circumcisions, both medical and ritual. It's probably the most powerful piece on this topic I've ever seen.

Mother, Why Was I Circumcised?

13 01 06 11:33 by macdocman

I decided to do a post of a program I made a year ago for Dutch public broadcaster VPRO. It was never shown abroad and I think you might find this interesting. Be aware: contains some unpleasant footage. And, eeh, it's 35 minutes. But it has great subtitles!

duration: 35:07 filesize: 130,9 Mb
Quote from the original Press release:

This is the first time that a (critical) film about the circumcision of boys has been made in the Netherlands, and this broadcast led to a strong public debate. In this broadcast, a number of questions are put to the MP Ayaan Hirsi Ali, which she subsequently put to the Minister of Health. (Ayaan Hirsi Ali is the controversial Dutch MP who made the film ‘Submission’ with filmmaker Theo van Gogh, who was subsequently murdered by a muslim fanatic). On Friday, 17 December 2004, the Minister decided to exclude the circumcision of boys from the Dutch National Health insurance scheme. 90% of the circumcisions were carried out for religious, rather than health reasons.

http://www.macdocman.com/

Please, share your comments here as well as on his website.

Thanks,

Jen
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#2 of 51 Old 01-18-2006, 01:57 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Anyone watch this yet?

Jen
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#3 of 51 Old 01-18-2006, 02:37 PM
 
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Watched it thanks for sharing. It was very upsetting at times to watch. It seems like such a non-decision. I do not get why it continues to be legal!

Mama to ds 6/00 and dd 1/09
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#4 of 51 Old 01-18-2006, 02:58 PM
 
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I'm trying to download it right now but I only have dial up and its going veeerrrryyyyy ssssslllllllloooooooowwwwww......ly

Once I've watched I'll post.

Casey
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#5 of 51 Old 01-18-2006, 05:01 PM
 
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I will have to go to the college campus where I can put my laptop on high speed. I will never get 130 megs on dial up. People will need to use the phone!
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#6 of 51 Old 01-18-2006, 05:12 PM
 
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I will watch it this evening. It's probably not appropriate for kids to watch over my shoulder.

7yo: "Mom,I know which man is on a quarter and which on is on a nickel. They both have ponytails, but one man has a collar and the other man is naked. The naked man was our first president."
 
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#7 of 51 Old 01-18-2006, 05:56 PM
 
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I just finished watching it. It was difficult...I was horrified and in tears at points, but I felt like he raised a lot of good questions for people to think about. I felt like it mostly dealt with religious circumcisions (especially at the end, he directed himself specifically to Jews and Muslims), but it's certainly applicable to Americans as well. His message, "Think again." There were a lot of familiar comments and arguments from NOCIRC and others (and I saw Mothering made it on the shots of places on the internet to go find info!), and basically it is just definitely something that would hopefully make people THINK. That is our society's problem, the majority of us just don't stop to think about it.
Wish I could say more, but my own precious little boy is waking up.

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#8 of 51 Old 01-18-2006, 06:32 PM
 
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I can't make the video work. It loads, and the bar fills up all the way, but there is no video or sound. Just a white screen. Any clues?

ETA: I looked at the comments and someone named "Jen" put up a very pro-circ argument. I rebutted most of it, but maybe someone else wants to chime in?

DS1 2004 ~ DS2 2005 ~ DD1 2008 ~ DS3 2010 ~ DD2 due Dec. 2014
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#9 of 51 Old 01-18-2006, 07:48 PM
 
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Did you safe the file to your PC or just try to run it?
You would have to have one hell of a broadband connection to just clik the link and have it work.
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#10 of 51 Old 01-18-2006, 08:04 PM
 
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I just waited for the gray bar to fill up completely (5 mins or so) and then pushed play and nothing happened. The bar moved as though it were playing, but then did not actually play.

DS1 2004 ~ DS2 2005 ~ DD1 2008 ~ DS3 2010 ~ DD2 due Dec. 2014
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#11 of 51 Old 01-18-2006, 08:27 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I posted the link to the video all over the place. A dozen messageboards, at least. I was so impressed, I went a little crazy, lol. So...it seems a lot of people are having trouble accessing it. I was able to download it, and will be putting it on a DVD as a "hard copy" and perhaps make a few to lend out. If all else fails, I'd be happy to "share". But I think if you're patient, and maybe try to access it during 'off' times over the next couple days, you should be able to view it/download it yourself. (You do need Quicktime.)
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#12 of 51 Old 01-18-2006, 08:30 PM
 
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I just watched it and it's very powerful. I can't get the image of the blood pouring out of that baby out of my mind. Or the 9 month old who was screaming like that. Ugh!

BTW I downloaded it to my computer before I played it, and I played it in RealPlayer.

7yo: "Mom,I know which man is on a quarter and which on is on a nickel. They both have ponytails, but one man has a collar and the other man is naked. The naked man was our first president."
 
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#13 of 51 Old 01-18-2006, 09:05 PM
 
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Just watched it. It totally made me want to cry for all those poor boys, some of that footage was horrific! And can I say "it looks nicer" is the stupidest reason EVER! And that dad who was intact and wouldn't have it done, geesh, think of what you're doing to your poor son. That really got my blood boiling. And the thought of a circ center made me want to puke. Doctors making thier living mutilating babies, that's just wrong.

Happily married to my dh, mama to ds1 (01/2005), ds2 (07/2007)  and dd (07/2009).
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#14 of 51 Old 01-18-2006, 09:36 PM
 
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I have dial up, so it will take too long for me to download, but I'm going to subscribe to the thread so I can watch it next time I visit my parents (they have broadband).
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#15 of 51 Old 01-19-2006, 06:29 AM
 
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I watched it

I also posted it on another message board - it got a few views, but nobody replied :
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#16 of 51 Old 01-19-2006, 08:51 AM
 
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I have DSL and got the whole white box moving tab thing, too. How would I download it onto my puter, instead of click the link? I am so computer illiterate, it seems.
Basically, how do I do this...
Quote:
BTW I downloaded it to my computer before I played it, and I played it in RealPlayer.
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#17 of 51 Old 01-19-2006, 11:25 AM
 
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Sunflower_mommy, thank you for posting that link!
One thing is on my mind though.. if muslims circumcise without pain relief how in the world that poor boy (about 10? years old) was able to even smile once his foreskin was cut away? Or do you think he had been given something for the pain?
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#18 of 51 Old 01-19-2006, 12:00 PM
 
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I used Quicktime and saw it immediately- no downloading or waiting for a bar to load.

The thing I liked best about it was the chat the man had with his mother- Why did you do this to me? This is a conversation that will very liely be happening a lot in the coming years in this country, and I think it drives that point home.
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#19 of 51 Old 01-19-2006, 01:20 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MonicaS
I have DSL and got the whole white box moving tab thing, too. How would I download it onto my puter, instead of click the link? I am so computer illiterate, it seems.
Basically, how do I do this...
Instead of clicking, right-click or control-click and your browser should bring up a little menu with one of the choices being, "download linked file" or "save linked file". Choose that, and it should download to your desktop.

HTHs,

Jen
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#20 of 51 Old 01-19-2006, 01:24 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by colaga
Sunflower_mommy, thank you for posting that link!
One thing is on my mind though.. if muslims circumcise without pain relief how in the world that poor boy (about 10? years old) was able to even smile once his foreskin was cut away? Or do you think he had been given something for the pain?
At age 10, he's probaby retractile...which means, no forced retraction/trauma to the glans. So, that's part of it. I remember with that part of the video specificially, I had to go back a few times because I missed what the narrator was saying. When I did, I believe there was a flash of him with an momentary unpleasant look on his face.

It is also possible they do sometimes use a bit of anesthetic---if the operator is a licensed doctor. But you have to keep in mind that with many of these later circs, it's a 'coming of age ritual' in which the boy is *expected* to maintain his composure and not cry, because he's 'becoming a man'.

Jen
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#21 of 51 Old 01-19-2006, 01:30 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mamajo2004
I watched it

I also posted it on another message board - it got a few views, but nobody replied :
I've been experiencing that same phenomenon. I posted this on, like, a dozen or more board. Mostly parenting/circumcision debates and also onto a few midwifery resource lists. One person responded that they were having trouble viewing. On another board, someone said that they were interested but would view it later when they had better (ie, high speed) internet access. And then, finally on a parenting forum debate board, an 11 page discussion ensued...but, not about the video. First, about whether or not I should have posted it, whether or not I was shoving/forcing my views by doing so, why I couldn't just accept 'each to their own', that the thread wouldn't stay on topic, and it would just become a circ debate, etc, etc. Parents who circed were actually posting just to let me know they wouldn't watch it because it wouldn't change their minds and they were satisfied with their decision. One was so threatened, she tried to hijack the thread and asked everyone who circed to post that they were proud they did so. It's amazing the level of childishness and nastiness something so powerful can bring out by parents so deeply in denial. But, while the thread did become (due to everyone else refusing to watch the video, except for one person) a more generalized circumcision debate, some good information got shared. :-)

Jen
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#22 of 51 Old 01-19-2006, 01:58 PM
 
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Wow, that was a great documentary. Thanks for posting that Jen


Tara

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#23 of 51 Old 01-19-2006, 03:01 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by colaga
Sunflower_mommy, thank you for posting that link!
One thing is on my mind though.. if muslims circumcise without pain relief how in the world that poor boy (about 10? years old) was able to even smile once his foreskin was cut away? Or do you think he had been given something for the pain?
I haven't seen the video yet. Did they say this (that Muslims circumcise without pain relief) in the video? Because it's certainly not universal. I've seen a documentary about Muslim circumcisions on TV once and the boys were given local anaesthesia. In this case, it was a doctor doing the circumcisions, though. If a ritual circumciser does it, it's probably different.

Stardust
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#24 of 51 Old 01-19-2006, 03:32 PM
 
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To those who are more computer savvy than I am: how long would it take to download this video if you have dial-up? That's what I have, so I'm afraid to try.
Thanks!
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#25 of 51 Old 01-19-2006, 03:47 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sunflower_mommy
Instead of clicking, right-click or control-click and your browser should bring up a little menu with one of the choices being, "download linked file" or "save linked file". Choose that, and it should download to your desktop.

HTHs,

Jen
Still can't watch it. I feel like I'm being whiny, but I really want to see this. I got it to download to my puter via the above instructions, but it still won't play. It says, "You may experience problems playing a video track in 'CIRCUMCISION.mov' because the required compressor could not be found." What is a compressor?
The Quicktime window pops up and says I already have it installed, so I don't know what else I can do.
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#26 of 51 Old 01-19-2006, 04:17 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sunflower_mommy
I've been experiencing that same phenomenon. I posted this on, like, a dozen or more board. Mostly parenting/circumcision debates and also onto a few midwifery resource lists. One person responded that they were having trouble viewing. On another board, someone said that they were interested but would view it later when they had better (ie, high speed) internet access. And then, finally on a parenting forum debate board, an 11 page discussion ensued...but, not about the video. First, about whether or not I should have posted it, whether or not I was shoving/forcing my views by doing so, why I couldn't just accept 'each to their own', that the thread wouldn't stay on topic, and it would just become a circ debate, etc, etc. Parents who circed were actually posting just to let me know they wouldn't watch it because it wouldn't change their minds and they were satisfied with their decision. One was so threatened, she tried to hijack the thread and asked everyone who circed to post that they were proud they did so. It's amazing the level of childishness and nastiness something so powerful can bring out by parents so deeply in denial. But, while the thread did become (due to everyone else refusing to watch the video, except for one person) a more generalized circumcision debate, some good information got shared. :-)

Jen
That is true Jen! Those women do act very childish and I commend you for going and keeping your stance and not letting their catty, snotty comments get to you. I appreciate your posts as do some other Mamas on the board you speak of! You are very well spoken

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#27 of 51 Old 01-19-2006, 06:07 PM
 
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Stardust,
It was a ritual circumciser, well I think he was anyhow. It wasn't a hospital setting for sure. He had clamped the boy's foreskin and the boy didn't appear to have any discomfort.
Any adamant pro-circumcision supporter can now say, look, it really doesn't hurt at all, the boy is smiling.

There was also a doctor doing cirumcisions for Muslim parents and he was using some sort of pain relief.

The Jewish ritual circumcision they showed literally seemed to be over in a split second, too. Too bad the didn't show the whole procedure from beginning to end.
I couldn't believe the way the Mohel lifted the baby all the way up in the air with one swoop of his hand, it seemed he could have dropped him so easily...
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#28 of 51 Old 01-20-2006, 12:01 AM
 
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As for the circumcision of the boy, he was also most likely fully or partially retractable so the foreskin did not have to be ripped/detached.

Infant circumcision has got to be (imo, but logically) much more painful than circumcision of a retractable foreskin.

I'm sure there is societal conditioning for the rituals to 'take it like a man' and 'show no pain', etc.

Jessica

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#29 of 51 Old 01-20-2006, 08:52 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by colaga
Stardust,
It was a ritual circumciser, well I think he was anyhow. It wasn't a hospital setting for sure. He had clamped the boy's foreskin and the boy didn't appear to have any discomfort.
Well, the doctor in the documentary that I saw came to the homes of the Muslim families and did the circumcisions there, so that doesn't prove anything. Thinking about it, I actually believe that among Muslims who live in non-Islamic European countries, it is really rare to do circumcisions without pain relief. Several countries have regulations that you need to have medical training/be a doctor to do circumcisions (a purely ritual circumciser from Turkey was convicted in Germany last summer). So hopefully, pain relief is used most of the time.

I think that Muslim circumcisions without any pain relief do mainly take place in remote regions and where people still have a very traditional lifestyle. When Muslims immigrants first came to Europe, they brought unanaesthetized circumcision with them, but with time, this practice was mellowed by law, insight and/or the monetary driving force of medicalization. Of course, there may be many families who take their boys to their countries of origin to have them circumcised the purely traditional way.


Quote:
Any adamant pro-circumcision supporter can now say, look, it really doesn't hurt at all, the boy is smiling.

The Jewish ritual circumcision they showed literally seemed to be over in a split second, too. Too bad the didn't show the whole procedure from beginning to end.
This is of course a bit unfortunate for an intactivist's video. Though it may also be wise not to be too sensationalist and not to focus too much on the pain issue (since pain can always be managed, making the argument void), but on the question of self determination/integrity. Anyway, I can't wait to see the video. I hope to be able to view it this weekend.

BTW, if you have a look at Michael Schaap's "business" website, you'll find some additional info about circumcision. It's all in Dutch, but the pictures are quite impressive as well. There are detailed photos of a circumcision performed on an adult (click on "De Operatie") and some interesting historic depictions (click on "Vroeger en nu"). If I figured it out correctly with my very rudimentary skills in Dutch, the documentary has been shown three times on Dutch TV, in 2004 and 2005.

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#30 of 51 Old 01-20-2006, 03:54 PM
 
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I've been trying for two days and the site won't even load on my 1.5 MB cable connection. I'd like to watch it to know what everyone is talking about.

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