Baby's dad's Arabic--what can I do??? - Page 2 - Mothering Forums
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#31 of 51 Old 02-25-2006, 09:50 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Kathryn
Yes, but this is your own child. You protect your child above all else.
well said. That and the fact that you can buy humanely raised, pasteur fed well taken care of beef, chicken, turkey, etc as an alternative to the massive butcherhouse meat. I think it's a poor excuse to allow someone to sexually mutilate your child, and I also think (imo) that it's a sort of self righteous thing for a mother to say. Oh, I sacrificed the genital integrity of my child so that he doesn't contribute to the inhuman treatment of animals and can be rasied vegitarian. Aren't I great? but you know what? it's NOT HER FORESKIN to sacrifice. Period. She is not SELFSACRIFICING to save animals, to allow a child to be cut in a "comprimise" with a dh in order to raise him vegetarian is an abuse on the child, when the mother already KNOWS the truth about circumcision but will still agree to it.

Sorry, but the truth hurts.
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#32 of 51 Old 02-25-2006, 11:20 PM
 
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You, know, I am a hardcore v*gan, have been for 13 years. My almost ten-year-old has never tasted meat. I never thought that any life was more valuable than the next. Then I had children and i can honestly say this...

...I would take a bite out of a live cow with my bare teeth before i allowed the COSMETIC AMPUTATION OF ONE OF THE MOST SENSITIVE PARTS OF MY CHILD'S ANATOMY WITHOUT (or even with) ANESTHETIC...

My children may choose to eat corpses or the lactate of a cow some day. My son may choose to have his penis scarred for life, but at that time IT WILL BE A CHOICE MY CHILD MADE! As a consenting and informed adult.

Mom to three 14 y.o. rock star grrl, 5 y.o. knight in spazzy armour and baby Juniper, born still @39 weeks 4 days 2-3-10 .
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#33 of 51 Old 02-26-2006, 01:41 AM
 
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Originally Posted by sadkitty
...I would take a bite out of a live cow with my bare teeth before i allowed the COSMETIC AMPUTATION OF ONE OF THE MOST SENSITIVE PARTS OF MY CHILD'S ANATOMY WITHOUT (or even with) ANESTHETIC...


Abso-freakin'-lutely.

The comfort, safety, and wellbeing of your own flesh and blood should come above all else. It's the first and foremost sacred obligation of parenting.

Jen
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#34 of 51 Old 02-26-2006, 01:47 AM
 
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I don't know, I just think this could come down to another debate like would you ff or circumcise if you "had", too. NOt sure the thread needs to go in that direction.... there are still religious obstacles to overcome, and that is yet another debate (and one we are not allowed to have on this board)

So what does the OP need to help with husband? You keep saying it is not religion but culture... would it be helpful to know of others from that culture that refused circumcision... etc.

Those early days/weeks are so stressful I would think it would be better to have the issue resolved before your child's birth. Unless your dh is one of those that makes a big deal over something, but you kinda do what you want, a few days go by, and crisis over.-- However with circ, you'll need to have a united front if you are going to be dealing with his family, his culture, etc.

GL

Jessica

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#35 of 51 Old 02-26-2006, 04:03 PM
 
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Do not cut your baby boy not matter what, it's his body HIS decision.
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#36 of 51 Old 02-26-2006, 04:03 PM
 
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-double post
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#37 of 51 Old 02-26-2006, 06:36 PM
 
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Kathryn & Misty,

Yep. Well said.
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#38 of 51 Old 03-07-2006, 10:18 AM
 
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its part of the sunnah, or way of the prophet and what should be done for the boys, it is weak for the girls to do it, meaning that it is not much proof for the girls to do it but for the boys..it is not a age regarded as having to do it, the circ that is..I am muslim, raised in the us and now residing in egypt. and I will not allow my son to be circ till he is at the age that he decides to follow islam. now for my husband, he wants the sons done early, as it is easier for them, but I havent even gotten yasmeens ears pierced and only the polio vaccine. but islam is over culture so perhaps you can investigate and show him the proof/ daleel and then his ego will be softened, insha'Allah.
and their are many nice strong names, there are not nice names in all languages
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#39 of 51 Old 03-07-2006, 10:38 AM
 
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Maybe this thread has some valuable information for the OP, as well:
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=370229

Stardust
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#40 of 51 Old 03-13-2006, 10:59 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Ok, I haven't had the time or energy to check this site lately, but here's my answer to a lot of people who obviously misunderstood my position on vegetarianism. First, let me just state for the record that I AM 100% OPPOSED to cutting my son. NO QUESTION ABOUT IT! Secondly, the vegetarian issue is completely irrelevant in this case, since he wouldn't accept that as a trade-off anyway. (A pretty sick and twisted trade-off it would be, too.) We made the compromise about religion/ vegetarianism long before we even conceived. At the time, it seemed like a good compromise and I hadn't even considered the circumcision thing. Honestly, it never even entered into my mind. As far as all those who claim I put the suffering of animals before the suffering of my child, I think you are not seeing the side I am. Again, as I said, I am NOT even wavering on the circ issue. I am 100% AGAINST it, but feel like I have no power over this (ya, it's his kid, too. Sometimes I think being a single mom was easier in a lot of ways.) The vegetarian issue here goes way beyond the suffering of animals...doesn't anyone see the long-term benefits of a vegetarian lifestyle, both physical and spiritual? Anyway, as I said, it's a moot point, since it's not on the bargaining table. What I need to know is, what do you do in a situation like mine? It's really easy for you to self-rightously say "I would never let someone cut my son" well, neither would I, but what if you felt unable to prevent it? I mean, aren't there any laws to prevent this? I'll know next month if we're having a boy or girl, and hopefully this won't even be an issue. (No, female circ. is NOT a Muslim tradition or custom--it is practiced in some cultures that happen to be Muslim, but it is not part of the religion, nor my husband's culture.)
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#41 of 51 Old 03-13-2006, 11:08 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blissmonkey
What I need to know is, what do you do in a situation like mine? It's really easy for you to self-rightously say "I would never let someone cut my son" well, neither would I, but what if you felt unable to prevent it? I mean, aren't there any laws to prevent this?
Truthfully? I'd divorce him and obtain any/all legal documents to prevent him from doing it behind my back. It's more important for my child not to be sexually mutilated. No religion or man is more important than the genital integrity of my child (and yes, I'm a religious person).

Please keep fighting for your son. Don't give up. You're implying that you feel unable to prevent it from being done (if it is indeed a boy) ... please don't be overwhelmed. Stay strong.
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#42 of 51 Old 03-13-2006, 11:34 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Would that really be grounds for divorce? Would as judge see it as child abuse? Of course, even IF it went that far, he would get visitation, and be alone with the child. Realistically, would the child be better off with a foreskin but no father, and a bitter exhausted mother who has to leave him with a sitter so she can work like a dog to support her two kids? And what if I could actually educate him (ie: explain all the facts, then show him the horrible disgusting photos and disturbing videos, which I will!) and he agrees (even just to shut me up) and we take the baby to visit the family (who is VERY traditional) back in "the old country" My God, they could take the baby somewhere and have it done--and under third-world sanitation conditions! (I mean, I'm talking about a country where you can have your dental work done by a so-called "dentist" who walks the streets with a box of loose teeth and a pair of pliars! No joke!) I am getting freaked out about it the more I think about it. Other moms in this situation (esp. in a "mixed marriage" who got their husbands to change their minds) please, tell me, what did you say? What finally got through their thick skiulls?????
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#43 of 51 Old 03-14-2006, 12:00 AM
 
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bliss did you check the pamphlet presented here on islam and circ? as a muslim i found it very helpful. i just wish i found it before i circed.
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#44 of 51 Old 03-14-2006, 12:53 AM
 
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I won't pretend to have been in your position. I can tell you, from firsthand experience, that single motherhood is hardly about bitterness, constant exhaustion, and never seeing your children (unless that's what you make it, of course). You do have a very good point that divorcing him would not necessarily protect your child, though.

Honestly, you don't need to convince him. You just have to say "no." Period, no. If you give birth in a hospital, take a big, back sharpie marker with you and write "NO CIRCUMCISION" on every one of his diapers. Make your voice heard loud and often. Once your baby is home, keep him in your sight at all times.

Let your husband know how serious you are about this. Let him know that it is a dealbreaker and that if he insists, you will use every resource available to you to make sure he never has an opportunity to hurt your baby. Show him the information on Islam and circumcision. Tell him you know that his religion does not require it and, so, his need to do it is about him, not about the child.

If reason and expressing what is in your heart are not swaying him, perhaps you'll have to be fierce. It's worth it if it keeps your child from being mutilated, isn't it?
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#45 of 51 Old 03-14-2006, 01:04 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blissmonkey
Would that really be grounds for divorce? Would as judge see it as child abuse? Of course, even IF it went that far, he would get visitation, and be alone with the child. Realistically, would the child be better off with a foreskin but no father, and a bitter exhausted mother who has to leave him with a sitter so she can work like a dog to support her two kids? And what if I could actually educate him (ie: explain all the facts, then show him the horrible disgusting photos and disturbing videos, which I will!) and he agrees (even just to shut me up) and we take the baby to visit the family (who is VERY traditional) back in "the old country" My God, they could take the baby somewhere and have it done--and under third-world sanitation conditions! (I mean, I'm talking about a country where you can have your dental work done by a so-called "dentist" who walks the streets with a box of loose teeth and a pair of pliars! No joke!) I am getting freaked out about it the more I think about it. Other moms in this situation (esp. in a "mixed marriage" who got their husbands to change their minds) please, tell me, what did you say? What finally got through their thick skiulls?????
You don't need to have "grounds" for a divorce in order to end a marriage. You can divorce, legally, for any reason. And, in states like mine which are 'no fault' divorce states, there isn't any weighing of whose fault it is with regard to how assets are divided up.

Remember, some people cut their daughters for cultural/religious reasons. What lengths would you go to protect your child if he was a daughter?

If your husband is unable to understand where you're coming from, he refuses to consider your concerns, and won't respect your wishes and maternal instincts or the inherrent right of your son to be free from non-medically indicated, amputative surgery...will he be able to love and respect the two of you in the other ways that matter?

I'm sorry you're going through this, and I agree it's a really tough situation but I also agree with others who have said that a child's genital integrity should never be on the table as a marriage bargaining chip...and if it gets to the point where it is, what kind of marriage is it anyway? KWIM?

Jen
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#46 of 51 Old 03-14-2006, 01:08 AM
 
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Why not ask your husband what makes his cultural belief that part of your son's body should be cut off more important than your personal belief that babies shouldn't be mutilated?

Casey
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#47 of 51 Old 03-14-2006, 03:22 AM
 
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This may be a long shot, but is it possible to get a court order so that the father can't have the child circ'd and for them to stay married? It may end the marriage to do so, but is it necessary to divorce to get such documentation?

Worst case, refuse. Never leave your dh alone with your son. Let your dh know that if he does it behind your back you will divorce him and sue for custody.

So sorry you're going through this.

Happily married to my dh, mama to ds1 (01/2005), ds2 (07/2007)  and dd (07/2009).
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#48 of 51 Old 03-14-2006, 12:16 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragonfly
I won't pretend to have been in your position. I can tell you, from firsthand experience, that single motherhood is hardly about bitterness, constant exhaustion, and never seeing your children (unless that's what you make it, of course). You do have a very good point that divorcing him would not necessarily protect your child, though.

Honestly, you don't need to convince him. You just have to say "no." Period, no. If you give birth in a hospital, take a big, back sharpie marker with you and write "NO CIRCUMCISION" on every one of his diapers. Make your voice heard loud and often. Once your baby is home, keep him in your sight at all times.

Let your husband know how serious you are about this. Let him know that it is a dealbreaker and that if he insists, you will use every resource available to you to make sure he never has an opportunity to hurt your baby. Show him the information on Islam and circumcision. Tell him you know that his religion does not require it and, so, his need to do it is about him, not about the child.

If reason and expressing what is in your heart are not swaying him, perhaps you'll have to be fierce. It's worth it if it keeps your child from being mutilated, isn't it?
This is what I would do, however if hubby was still making threats to do it, I would leave him. Why stay with someone willing to abuse my child?

Misty
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#49 of 51 Old 03-14-2006, 09:26 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Hi, everybody. Thanks for the replies and the links to more info. Truth is, I feel too exhausted now to read all the info out there. (There is SO much!) I'm holding off until after the next ultrasound which (hopefully) will tell us what we're having. Believe me, we have enough things to deal with right now without me dragging in this. I don't feel "up to" the giant debate and chaos. I know, I know, the ultrasound could be wrong, so I should be prepared, just in case. Does anyone know of any anti-circ websites available in French or Arabic? DH's English is pretty good, but reading English is tough for him, and I'm afraid he won't get the real meaning of what he's reading. If he reads it himself, it'll be more objective, and maybe he'll be more likely to make the sane decision, instead of filtering it through me, since I tend to get pretty worked up over stuff like this. (Then, it gets "personal" and, even if he agrees that I have a point, he may be too stubborn to admit it. *sigh!* men...honestly!!!!!) Sometimes I think men are just practice for eventually having to deal with children!!!!!:
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#50 of 51 Old 03-15-2006, 12:07 AM
 
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Originally Posted by MistyMM
This is what I would do, however if hubby was still making threats to do it, I would leave him. Why stay with someone willing to abuse my child?

Misty
It's an excellent point. But it's entirely true that, unless you can give a court some reason that your child should not be with his dad unsupervised, you will generally have much less control over what happens to your child as a single parent with shared custody than you will as a married parent with the opportunity to oversee every interaction.
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#51 of 51 Old 03-17-2006, 09:03 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blissmonkey
Does anyone know of any anti-circ websites available in French or Arabic?
This is the site of a French anti-circumcision organisation: Association contre la mutilation des enfants

They also have Sami A. Aldeeb Abu-Salieh's long essay "To Mutilate in the Name of Jehovah or Allah" in French (Mutiler au nom de Yahvé ou d'Allah).

And another one in Canada: http://www.infocirc.org/bienven.htm

The only thing I know of in Arabic is the translation of the Ashley Montagu Resolution to end the Genital Mutilation of Children Worldwide, but that might not be exactly what you're looking for.

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