Why so anti-circumcision? - Mothering Forums
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#1 of 78 Old 03-09-2006, 05:58 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Hi everyone. I'm new around here and this whole website is fascinating. I'm just wondering why everyone is so anti-circumcision. I was reading the article on this site against circumcision and it seems the reasons are pretty extreme. I mean, the propaganda for circumcision has a lot of lies and stretched truths, but the information against it is equally as extreme and I find it hard to take it seriously. Not trying to offend anyone, just wondering where people are coming from.
I also noticed that one of the reasons in the article I read seemed to say you should leave the foreskin intact so that masterbation would be easier. Maybe I'm the minority here, but I don't exactly want to encourage masterbation.
That being said, I would like to say my reasons for not having my son circumcised. I think that his foreskin is his foreskin, not mine, and if he decides later he wants it removed, I will support him then, but it's not my place to change his body. Also, there's always the risk of something going wrong, and that just scares me too much, so I'm NOT pro-circumcision, I just want to hear people's opinions.

Heidi mum to Isaac (06/06), Matea (04/08), and Naomi (04/10)
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#2 of 78 Old 03-09-2006, 06:05 PM
 
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There is NO medical reason at all to circ. not a single medical organization in the world suggests it. It is painful and disfiguring. AND- as you mention, it's not the parent's body to decide.

-Angela
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#3 of 78 Old 03-09-2006, 06:06 PM
 
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I think that what was put there by god/nature/whatever is there for a reason. circumcision is extremely painful and has no benefits. Why do it? I don't do anything to my kids that doesn't need to be done, and this doesn't need to be done. I'm not as extreme as some people but I am very much against it.
And I do want to encourage masturbation! I would much rather my boys be masturbating then having sex that they are not ready for.
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#4 of 78 Old 03-09-2006, 06:07 PM
 
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the information against it is equally as extreme and I find it hard to take it seriously.
I'm trying to figure out just what you think is extreme. I don't think any of the reasons is, personally.

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#5 of 78 Old 03-09-2006, 06:14 PM
 
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I think I understand where this poster is coming from. And in many ways, I agree w/ her. I think on both sides, people are very extreme. And that makes it hard for some people to make a decision.

I do believe that there are no medical benefits. And I do think that removing the foreskin DOES affect a man's sex life (I have had both intact and circ'd partners and there is a HUGE difference, imo.)

But my main reason for not circ'ing my boys is that I don't think I have a right to permanently remove a healthy working part of someone else's body without their permission. Even if there WERE medical benefits to circumcision, I don't think I would have a right to do it. It's not my body.
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#6 of 78 Old 03-09-2006, 06:14 PM
 
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i have 2 boys who are circumcized b/c i never knew any different. i was ignorant and just went along with the program (of course, they were both also delivered via c/s...goes to show you how "with teh program" i was).

this babe is NOT circ'd, thanks to the great mamas here. my reasons?
1. its not my body, so i dont feel its my right to permit someone to cut it
2. there is NO health reason
3. its painful
4. it interfers with breastfeeding due to the pain level
5. its genital mutilation (sorry for my first 2 boys..i just didnt know).
6. apparently it interferes with sex later (in that circ'd boys lose sensitivty)
7. somethign could go wrong with teh operation
8. masterbation is harder (i dont discourage it...its none of my business)
9. i wouldnt want it done to me
10. the reasons for circ'ing were total b.s.

oh, and im Jewish, so i know there is this whole problem with my son's covenant with G-d (or mine, being his mother), but im just not going to concern myself too much with our relationship with G-d on this particular issue. I really think G-d will forgive me for loving my son...and if not, well, i don't know...but i don't believe in hell, so i have no idea what i will be doing. still working on that one...
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#7 of 78 Old 03-09-2006, 06:18 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I guess I should reword it, it's not that the reasons against are extreme, I guess I'm just wondering how there are two such extreme views on the matter. Some people say the foreskin protects the penis, and others say that circumcision keeps the penis cleaner... It seems someone's making something up. I'm pretty non-partisan on the medical pros and cons, since there seems to be conflicting evidence.

My case against circumcision is more a moral thing, so I'm still trying to make heads and tails of the medical evidence for and against.

Heidi mum to Isaac (06/06), Matea (04/08), and Naomi (04/10)
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#8 of 78 Old 03-09-2006, 06:22 PM
 
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Hi Rolenta.. good to see you here...

Uh.. my original reason for not circ'ing was very religious, but I'd have to pm you about that if you'd like..

Now that I've become more educated about it, none of the reason seem extreme at all.. I think intact is a much healthier, and considerably more loving choice when you see what a baby boy goes through. I couldn't have allowed that to happen to my son. It's an incredible violation of the sweet shiny new people that brand new baby boys are... and of course the people that boys or men of any age that are put through circ'ing!


lizzie

It's such a relief to finally trust yourself.
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#9 of 78 Old 03-09-2006, 06:22 PM
 
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Why so anti-circ? Because I think genital integrity should be a HUMAN right, not just a gender-specific right. I think that's about the nicest thing I can say about it.

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#10 of 78 Old 03-09-2006, 06:28 PM
 
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The penis has the foreskin to "cleanse" itself just as the vagina has the labia. There are all kinds of enzymes and HELPFUL bacteria in each of these areas to protect the body FROM infection. Kinda like when you take antibiotics you can sometimes get a yeast infections, its because the antibiotics has killed some of your natural flora. The cleaner arguement comes from the fact that for some reason, people want the penis to be a dry "dead" place with no moisture. Can you imagine how you would feel if your vagina had no moisture? Do you consider yourself unclean because of your vagina? People are squeemish with the fact that their body creates these mucous membranes and is actually protected by this bacteria and cells. There are also immunoglobulins in these mucous membranes (IgA) to protect. When one cuts off the foreskin the penis loses this protection. One may say its "cleaner" but their definition is utterly incorrect and in fact they have removed one of the bodies best defense mechanisms and they are left with a dry, hardend, calloused outter skin with much less sensation. There is nothing at all unclean about an intact foreskin, it is doing what it is meant to do in every way. Society is just so obsessed with cleanliness they do many stupid thins to their body, like douche, overmedicate, shave, scrub and take nature out of the equation. so sad

read this, http://www.norm.org/lost.html
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#11 of 78 Old 03-09-2006, 06:29 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rolenta
I guess I should reword it, it's not that the reasons against are extreme, I guess I'm just wondering how there are two such extreme views on the matter. Some people say the foreskin protects the penis, and others say that circumcision keeps the penis cleaner... It seems someone's making something up. I'm pretty non-partisan on the medical pros and cons, since there seems to be conflicting evidence.
.
It's called ignorance!!!!!

Doctors med books don't even have pictures of an intact penis from what I'm told. Began with them wanting to prevent masturbation in the victorian age I believe and then progressed - well maybe it will prevent cancer, maybe it will be cleaner etc - all the while each reason has been debunked and there are NO reasons now to do it. But docs are taught it and do as they have been taught. So lots of little boys have their genitals partially amputated.

I was talking with some ladies the other day at our library group and she thought since her DS had a pacifier with sugar taht it wouldn't hurt him - nurses just told her that and that newborns don't feel any pain. ???? Well, I spoke up and you could see her really thinking and she had to admit that was probably not the truth. I think that is why people here feel passionate. Becasue we know how ignorant so many people incl the medical pros are -a nd how many babies are having life scarring unnecessary surgery because of it.
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#12 of 78 Old 03-09-2006, 06:31 PM
 
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rolenta, do you think "it's cleaner" is a valid reason to circumcise females? Because of course that is one of the main reasons for FGM too.
The truth is there are NO real medical reasons to routinely circ boys (or girls). If you research the history of male circ you will find that those so called medical reasons keep changing as they get debunked.
I am against genital mutilation because it is a, painful, permanent , sexual alteration of a unconsenting person's body.
To me it is very EXTREME to cut of parts of babies genitals.

OUR DAUGHTERS ARE PROTECTED SHOULDN'T OUR SONS BE TOO! :
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#13 of 78 Old 03-09-2006, 06:35 PM
 
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Welcome to the boards. Circumcision is a highly emotional issue, and sometimes people get pretty heated discussing it. We chose not to circumcise our little boy because we were not willing to let anyone perform a completely unnecessary, incredibly painful cosmetic surgery on our perfectly formed little boy. I also didn't feel like it was our place to make that decision for our son, and quite frankly I don't think anyone should have the right to make that decision for their son. Plus, there are too many things that can go wrong - it's not worth it. I am VERY anti-circ, but even talking to other anti-circ people I have varying opinions. I personally get irritated when I hear people talking about circumcision and female genital mutilation like they're the same thing, but that's my opinion and others disagree. Like I said, it is a very emotional issue.
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#14 of 78 Old 03-09-2006, 06:38 PM
 
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Simple answer....

The positons on circumcision are so "extreme" because the amputating surgery is so extreme.


Some would have people believe that it is just the removal of a redundant flap of skin. When, in actuality, it is the excrutiatingly painful cosmetic removal of a protective system with a very important function, performed on an unconsenting minor without anesthetic.

Mom to three 14 y.o. rock star grrl, 5 y.o. knight in spazzy armour and baby Juniper, born still @39 weeks 4 days 2-3-10 .
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#15 of 78 Old 03-09-2006, 06:54 PM
 
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I don't think that many people list sexual satisfaction as their main reason for not circumcising (it is on my list though, why shouldn't I want my child to be happy?).
I think you may be misunderstanding the info. Its saying that the first reason Americans started circumcising was to prevent masterbation which they thought caused lots of diseases.

I am against male circumcision for the same reason I am against female circumcision. Its wrong to cosmetically alter a person's body in a profound and permanent way without their consent. The fact that the surgery is painful and there is no medical reason and not a valid cultural reason to do it just cements my resolve.

Mom of a 7 yr old, 4 yr old, and 1 yr old. Wow. How did that happen?
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#16 of 78 Old 03-09-2006, 06:57 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aisraeltax
oh, and im Jewish, so i know there is this whole problem with my son's covenant with G-d (or mine, being his mother), but im just not going to concern myself too much with our relationship with G-d on this particular issue. I really think G-d will forgive me for loving my son...and if not, well, i don't know...but i don't believe in hell, so i have no idea what i will be doing. still working on that one...
I know, I know, we're not supposed to mention religion in this forum. And I'm probably going to get in trouble for quoting this, but thank you!! It's so nice to hear from another Jewish mama who doesn't circ. Thank you, thank you, thank you!

"Home is where the heart is, no matter how the heart lives." - PP&M
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#17 of 78 Old 03-09-2006, 07:07 PM
 
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Quite simply:

I believe intact genitals are every baby's birthright, regardless of gender or nationality.

I consider cutting the genitals of non-consenting children, without a pressing medical need, a blatant and serious human rights violation.

Jen
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#18 of 78 Old 03-09-2006, 07:09 PM
 
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sorry..i didnt know that, but prob. should have (im not always good at reading rules). and i certainly wasnt saying that about anyone else's...just my supposed inconsistency.
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#19 of 78 Old 03-09-2006, 07:31 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rolenta
It seems someone's making something up. I'm pretty non-partisan on the medical pros and cons, since there seems to be conflicting evidence.
It behooves those that make money off of circumcision to perpetuate it (sorry for the ridiculous use of the word behooves).
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#20 of 78 Old 03-09-2006, 07:38 PM
 
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No, we're allowed to mention religion in this forum as long as we don't debate it or bash a person b/c of their religious beliefs or practices. Another sort of Jewish mama here. (I'm not, dh is. I would have converted long ago, but our rabbi here is very conservative and wants to convert my kids along w/ me--and yes, circ is required. Uh... NOT happening! LOL! I'll convert when we move and find a less conservative rabbi. We are Reform afterall. We just live in IN. )
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#21 of 78 Old 03-09-2006, 07:42 PM
 
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I'll say that I am ANTI cir for EVERYONE, (ok not adults) but for boys and girls. regarless of the parents "choice" or religion....why...
1. not my penis....
2. Yes masterbation is better/easier, but so is sex. And I don't believe that either is something to be shamed. I want my son to have his whole penis so his sex life is 100% later on.
3. my dh is that he was cir...

mother to E-(8).... A-(6) .... & N-(5)
Vivian Claire born 3-11-10.... ...still an , extendedmomma :
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#22 of 78 Old 03-09-2006, 08:11 PM
 
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I guess I should reword it, it's not that the reasons against are extreme, I guess I'm just wondering how there are two such extreme views on the matter.
Another reason why people can be so extreme about advocating circumcision, is because I think men have a very hard time coming to grips with the fact that something "bad" was done to their penis. I'm part of a message board that is predominantly populated by men, and when the great circ debate pops up from time to time, it's astounding how many men will pipe up with phrases like "I'm circ'd, and the ladies love it" (the ladies really don't care, dude...trust me) or "I'm circ'd, and I'm cleaner" (have a shower every few days and you'll be clean regardless). Or some will just retaliate with "I sure am glad I don't have a disgusting cock skirt" (yes, that's an exact quote). Men are very proud of their bits, and often will not budge on the issue, because I think maybe it forces them to look at themselves differently? You can throw every bit of research at them that you want, and they will keep their blinders on and continue to rave about the "benefits" of circ, and how they will have their sons cut because foreskin is "icky."

I think that cutting a child for cosmetic reasons, is about as extreme as you can get.
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#23 of 78 Old 03-09-2006, 08:17 PM
 
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I am extremely anti circ.

Perhaps this is covered, I have not read through all the posts yet.....

But lets see:
Amputating a child's genitals.
While they are too young to protest.
With any anaesthesia.
without his consent.
without thought to the damages it will cause him later in life.
in most (though not all) cases to suit your own sexual preferences.

it's child abuse.
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#24 of 78 Old 03-09-2006, 08:23 PM
 
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DS was not circ'ed b/c DH and I believe that our son was perfectly made--intact.
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#25 of 78 Old 03-09-2006, 08:26 PM
 
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I just have to agree with what everyone else has said. I circ'd my eldest and I cry every time I think about how I allowed my son to be mutilated because my mom told me it was better for him. It's not, and the only difference between my intact and circumcized sons is the missing piece from my circ'd son.
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#26 of 78 Old 03-09-2006, 08:26 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Attached Mama
It's called ignorance!!!!!

Doctors med books don't even have pictures of an intact penis from what I'm told.
This has been my experience. I'm working toward my BSN (bachelor's of science in nursing) on my way to being a CNM. And being as anti-circ as I am, I notice when the diagrams in my books have a circed penis. There is a quick mention of circumision for the removal of the foreskin, but it is never listed as "optional" or anything, just like it's what you "do." Kwim? In my current A&P text, I've noticed 1 or 2 intact penises and they are on pictures of more "ethnic" looking men. The white-looking men are all circed. It drive me insane, and I am really comtemplating drafting up a letter to the publishers of my textbooks every time I see it.
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#27 of 78 Old 03-09-2006, 08:29 PM
 
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To respond to the OP:

I am anti-circumcision because I view it as calculated child abuse. No other part of a baby's body could legally be removed from a child for no medical reason. Want to cut off a toe? You're a psycho child abuser. Want to cut off the foreskin? Oh, that's the parents choice! Total bull.
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#28 of 78 Old 03-09-2006, 08:37 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rolenta
I also noticed that one of the reasons in the article I read seemed to say you should leave the foreskin intact so that masterbation would be easier. Maybe I'm the minority here, but I don't exactly want to encourage masterbation.

i surely couldnt' guess if you aren't or are in any sort of majority, but i am curious about this...
1. what's wrong with masturbation?
2. do you actually think you're in control of another person's genitals enough that it matters whether you 'encourage' it or not?

Mama Q scratches head...
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#29 of 78 Old 03-09-2006, 10:20 PM
 
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In a nutshell, I am anti-circ because my penis was wrecked in a botched circ and re-circ. It was ridiculous that it even happened and I'm the one who's had to live with it my entire life. Not my parents, not the doctors who convinced them it was necessary, not any religious group, and not my peers in the locker room. Me. It was my penis and it certainly wasn't MY choice.

Beyond that you can go into all the other obvious scientific evidence, logic and ration as to why it's a bunch of pseudo-medical quackery, but I know others here can do that far more eloquently. I know there's a lot of cultural brain-washing and old wive's tales out there (at least in the US) supporting circ; even living with a botch job, I still believed it was for the "better" for almost 30 years. But still, even then there was always this little voice in the back of my head telling me there was something really....macabre...with the whole concept of taking the perfect creation, a child, and hacking on his genitals as a welcome into this world.
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#30 of 78 Old 03-09-2006, 10:22 PM
 
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Why so anti-circumcision? Because it's such an important issue!!!
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