If a friend of your chooses to circ...do you stay friends with them? - Page 7 - Mothering Forums
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#181 of 289 Old 05-14-2006, 01:42 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Heffernhyphen
I don't think I understand what you're saying. That his being gay is challenging his religious tradition? He really didn't get a vote there, did he?
He did not choose to be gay, it was decided by chance really.

What he did decide to do was not repress his feelings away deep down inside or feel sinful and ashamed for them, forever supressing his true self beneath a false faith.

Instead he acted upon his urges and vigourously defended doing so, a varely rarely approved-of approach for a homosexual Orthodox man to do. I just found it quite a pity that he was so free-thinking and broad-minded in that regard but will not extend this attitude when it comes to a blatantly barbaric and brutal custom.

He told me that nothing I could say could possibly change his mind on the issue while also telling me that his faith had taught him to question everything. I doubt he noticed the irony...

But yes, you are correct, being gay would not in itself have challenged them but being openly and unapologetically active would and did.
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#182 of 289 Old 06-06-2006, 08:44 AM
 
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My son is circ'd. At the time of his birth I was entrenched in a large circle of religious friends and feeling my life would lead in that direction. I was informed and chose the best I could at the time. Would I do it again, no! And I am now a big advocate of not-circ'ing, especially within the religious community. But I have worked very hard to ensure that my son does not grow up with shame about his body...the way it is for whatever reason. I've also had to work very hard to not feel guilt over this. Things change, I do the best I can. And take great offense that I would be considered a child abuser!

All of you women who would ditch friends over this .....shame on you. You are not the type of friend I would want to be friends with anyway! Where do you cross the line? what other criteria do you have. Friendship is about understanding and kindness and love. Where do you find all these friends that are exactly like you? And how boring that must be. Do you all just sit around and talk about how awful everyone else is and how much better you are? Would you not let my son come for a playdate with your children because of my choice? WOW! Well guess you are making your point huh? It is really showing the world you shouldn't circ your sons or you will have no friends ---- not everyone will follow your creed just because YOU have told them what to do. I am friends with ALL kinds of people and we learn from each other everyday because of those diffrences, we even get into very heated discussions about it, but in the end we respect each others diffrences with love and kindness. :
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#183 of 289 Old 06-06-2006, 09:14 AM
 
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Where do I cross the line? What criteria do I have? That's easy.

I will not maintain a friendship with someone who hits or beats her children.

I will not maintain a friendship with someone who emotionally abuses her children - puts them down, shames them, disrespects them constantly.

I will not maintain a friendship with someone who KNOWINGLY harms her child by circumcising him even KNOWING what circumcision is and what it does for social/cultural/aesthetic reasons, after having been given the information by me or someone else.

I am friends with plenty of mamas who circed - the vast majority of whom did so for non-religious reasons "to look like daddy." Some of them are my extremely close friends. They would not stay my extremely close friends if they chose to circ again, knowing what they know now.

I cannot be friends with someone who does not respect her OWN CHILD's right to his body and treat him with love and kindness by respecting his right to bodily integrity.

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#184 of 289 Old 06-06-2006, 03:48 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Quirky
Where do I cross the line? What criteria do I have? That's easy.

I will not maintain a friendship with someone who hits or beats her children.

I will not maintain a friendship with someone who emotionally abuses her children - puts them down, shames them, disrespects them constantly.

I will not maintain a friendship with someone who KNOWINGLY harms her child by circumcising him even KNOWING what circumcision is and what it does for social/cultural/aesthetic reasons, after having been given the information by me or someone else.

I am friends with plenty of mamas who circed - the vast majority of whom did so for non-religious reasons "to look like daddy." Some of them are my extremely close friends. They would not stay my extremely close friends if they chose to circ again, knowing what they know now.

I cannot be friends with someone who does not respect her OWN CHILD's right to his body and treat him with love and kindness by respecting his right to bodily integrity.
Yeah, what she just said. Once you know and continue the cycle of abuse, it's a whole other story.
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#185 of 289 Old 06-06-2006, 04:21 PM
 
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Originally Posted by treefolk
Do you all just sit around and talk about how awful everyone else is and how much better you are? Would you not let my son come for a playdate with your children because of my choice?
Nice strawman you have there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by treefolk
I am friends with ALL kinds of people and we learn from each other everyday because of those diffrences, we even get into very heated discussions about it, but in the end we respect each others diffrences with love and kindness.
All kinds of people, eh? Do you have any friends that are, say, convicted rapists? Arsonists? Murderers? Armed robbers? Enron executives? Seriously, is there no person so heinous that you would refrain from associating with them? Can you understand that some of us have different definitions of what we consider to be heinous?
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#186 of 289 Old 06-06-2006, 04:30 PM
 
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geeze this ticks me off!!
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#187 of 289 Old 06-06-2006, 05:16 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Canadianmommax3
geeze this ticks me off!!
Why is that?
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#188 of 289 Old 06-06-2006, 05:33 PM
 
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because i had my son circ. 11 years ago, i didn't want to but my dh insisted so i caved, my second son isn't only because we waited to long to have it done. which i am glad for.
But i take offense to the comparison. that's why
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#189 of 289 Old 06-06-2006, 05:41 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Canadianmommax3
because i had my son circ. 11 years ago, i didn't want to but my dh insisted so i caved, my second son isn't only because we waited to long to have it done. which i am glad for.
But i take offense to the comparison. that's why
I do not think that anyone here would judge you at all. It was not your fault so much as the culture which has made circumcision acceptable, if there had been no doctor providing such a brutal "Service" then your son would have been left intact.
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#190 of 289 Old 06-06-2006, 07:16 PM
 
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If I gave my friend materials and they knew that it was wrong to do it and they chose to anyway, no I wouldn't.

Unassisted birthing, atheist, poly, bi WOHM to 4 wonderful, smart homeschooling kids Wes (14) Seth (7) Pandora Moonlilly (2) and Nevermore Stargazer (11/2012)  Married to awesome SAH DH.

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#191 of 289 Old 06-06-2006, 07:32 PM
 
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g
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#192 of 289 Old 06-06-2006, 07:35 PM
 
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Did you circumcise your son after hearing the truth about the procedure, and understanding that you were going to cause your son pain and lifelong negative effects?

~*Kristi*~
Tallulah Dare 8-01,  Marcos Gael 12-04, Cormac Mateo 9-09, Leonidas Ronan 11-11

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#193 of 289 Old 06-06-2006, 07:37 PM
 
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well now treefolk, my reply doesn't make sense! Why did you delete it?

~*Kristi*~
Tallulah Dare 8-01,  Marcos Gael 12-04, Cormac Mateo 9-09, Leonidas Ronan 11-11

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#194 of 289 Old 06-07-2006, 04:21 AM
 
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I erased it because I don't see the point in defending myself, or at least getting defensive of being put into the same category as a rapsit and murderer...
Really, I give respect to ahnyone trying to change the way things are and make it NOT acceptable to circ. Some of the things that have been said in the thread I'd rather agree to disagree, that's all.
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#195 of 289 Old 06-07-2006, 09:46 AM
 
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OK. I thought after my post that I shouldn't have asked you anyway. It was inappropriate. Sorry.

~*Kristi*~
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#196 of 289 Old 06-07-2006, 10:46 AM
 
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I have given up friendships over this issue. I also still have friends who have circ'd their sons; in fact, my oldest is circ'd.
29 years ago I did not have access to the www and while I realize that many many mommas still did not allow their sons to be mutilated, even without the benefit of MDC , I was not one of those mommas. I was a self centered non maternal 18 year old who should have had to pass a test to get to take my son home Allowing him to have his genitals altered would have been a good test.

The friends I have currently with sons who are mutilated are now educated, they regret their decision (or non-decision) and would never allow another son to be mutilated.
The ones who know the facts and go ahead and allow it anyway.... nope; can't be friends with them anymore than I could be friends with someone who pulled the wings off of baby birds.
One xfriend has cut two babies, she's expecting another in August. The worst part? She refused to even look at any information, because it might make her feel bad about circing About a year ago, she came to my house and told me that it was unfair of me to not let our kids play together; that her DD missed my DD and we shouldn't let our "differences of opinion" come between the girls. I told her firmly, but very very gently, that I considered circumcision to be sexual child abuse and it was my duty as a parent to keep my DD away from people who were sexual child abusers. She cried; my DC were very upset that I hurt her feelings and I was even angrier with her for playing such a stupid game with me.
Another friend is actually the son of my best friend. I sent him the links, he ignored them. We went from seeing he and his wife 3-4 times a month to seeing them 1-2 times a year at large gatherings. When we do see them, I make sure DS gets "loose" at least once so they can see what a normal penis looks like. Since DS is PLing, I guess we're done with that... When I see pictues of their DS (he was a year old in Jan) I can barely look at his face. They are pregnant with a girl now and having all sorts of complications; I really cannot muster any concern whatsoever over their fear that they may lose this baby : I just honestly don't care if they're in pain.

All my empathy lies with the little boy who had no voice...
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#197 of 289 Old 06-07-2006, 11:03 AM
 
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It's sad that people are judged so harshly for such a private choice. I personally wouldn't want to circumcise my son, but my husband feels very strongly about having it done. His close friend had to get it done in his twenties because of infections and the guy was in lots of pain. I'm glad I had a daughter so I can put off that argument a little while longer.

But in response to your situation, it's really none of your business what your friend choose to do with her son. You are probably missing out on meeting some really great parents if you won't be her friend for such a petty reason. How would you feel to be rejected for a reason like that? It's like not being someone's friend because they like corn and you don't. And it's definitely not a positive example for your children to see.
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#198 of 289 Old 06-07-2006, 11:16 AM
 
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It's also a private choice to beat your child as well, but many of us here believe that children are worth advocating for.

I suggest you read a bit. Would you circumcise your daughter because one of your friends had infections?

Mom to Dakota (6), Coy, (4), Max, (4), Lily (4), and Auri (June 19th 2010)!
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#199 of 289 Old 06-07-2006, 11:22 AM
 
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It's sad that people are judged so harshly for such a private choice. I personally wouldn't want to circumcise my son, but my husband feels very strongly about having it done. His close friend had to get it done in his twenties because of infections and the guy was in lots of pain. I'm glad I had a daughter so I can put off that argument a little while longer
Welcome to MDC. Hopefully you will stick around this forum for awhile because it is a wonderful resource. You are right that it is a private choice, but it is NOT THE PARENT'S CHOICE. It is not their penis, so they have no right to make a decision that will affect him for the rest of his life. Baby boys are born with a foreskin, so there is no decision to make, it was already made. As far as your dh's friend who had to be circ'd in his twenties-chances are very slim that it was necessary and if he had been living in most countries other than the States, circ would not have been the answer.

Blessed mama of four
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#200 of 289 Old 06-07-2006, 11:27 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Kawren's Mommy
It's sad that people are judged so harshly for such a private choice.
I think it's sadder to MAKE such a private choice FOR another person.
I personally wouldn't want to circumcise my son, but my husband feels very strongly about having it done. His close friend had to get it done in his twenties because of infections and the guy was in lots of pain.
I have an intact brother who had infection after infection due to the doctor's instructions to rip back the foreskin and clean under it at every diaper change. He is now in his 40s and still intact.
I'm glad I had a daughter so I can put off that argument a little while longer.
me too

But in response to your situation, it's really none of your business what your friend choose to do with her son.
It is indeed my business. It is also my business if she beats him
You are probably missing out on meeting some really great parents if you won't be her friend for such a petty reason.
If a parent knows the facts and mutilates anyway, I am not missng out on knowing a great parent. They've disqualified themselves from that title.
How would you feel to be rejected for a reason like that?
Rejection is part of life, but I couldn't be rejected for a reason like that because I don't sexually abuse my children.
It's like not being someone's friend because they like corn and you don't.
ummmm; how is it the same?
And it's definitely not a positive example for your children to see.
I believe it's an excellent example for my children to see. Mama standing up for the rights of the people (or animals, or environment) that do not have a voice of their own.
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#201 of 289 Old 06-07-2006, 04:02 PM
 
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Kawren's Mommy - Welcome to MDC and please check out the name of this forum If someone likes corn or doesn't, it doesn't constitute sexual abuse. If someone circ's their son (or their daughter) knowing all the facts about there being NO benefit to circ and does it anyway ('cause it's so much "prettier") then it's child abuse. Someone who doesn't know any better and does it out of ignorance has abused their child, but doesn't deserve to be judged for it.

If someone decided they really wanted a girl and made the decision to chop their son's penis off and raise him as a girl (he'd be so much "prettier" as a girl anyhow), would you stay friends with them? How is chopping HALF the penis off any different then chopping the whole thing off (other than one being socially acceptable)? I guess a circ'd penis is still semi-functional because it's only been partially mutilated, but according to many friends I have in real life - the circ'd mutilated penis is NOT functional at all compared to the intact whole penis. Would you stay friends with someone who chopped their child's arm off because his father only had one arm and wanted the son to "look like him"? Where do you draw the line, Kawren's mommy? I'm just curious...

The person whose penis it is should be the one making the "personal" decision. Parents cannot make a "personal" decision for another person. It doesn't work like that (and it shouldn't be legal to do so).

My daughter has the right to not be mutilated so why shouldn't a son of a pro-circer have the same right to not be mutilated? It's his body after all just like it's my daughter's body

love and peace.

mama to two girls and due in November!
: Circumcision can never be undone :
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#202 of 289 Old 06-07-2006, 05:26 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Sharlla
If I gave my friend materials and they knew that it was wrong to do it and they chose to anyway, no I wouldn't.
you know people, people do things because of how they believe. And it is just mean that you (people) would drop someone from being a friend just because they didn't listen to you. granted people make poor decisions in life but it is their decisions they have to live with.
You cant live life for other people. People have to live life on their one and seek out their own answers and ways. just because you give someone the facts doesnt mean people will follow it.
I can give many people facts that Jesus is the answer and he was a real person and he is the son of God but does everyone believe it. No, people will do what they want to do and believe the way they want to and that is why it is called "free will".
"Judge not lest ye be judge" Ignorant isn't bliss but they have to find that out for themselves. We can try to help them but it is their life. Our job as humans is to Love God, Love Others and love ourselves in that order.
Anyways, to some it up LOVE!!!
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#203 of 289 Old 06-07-2006, 05:44 PM
 
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oh, one more thing might I add. granted children dont have a choice of whether or not to be circed but are you not their parent? they also dont have a choice in their name, do they? some people grow up hating their name. there are things they dont choose but you as a parent choose for them, right? well that is your right as their parent. and sure you do want to make the right choices for them, but sometimes you don't entirely know what that is. so you make what [/U]you [/U]think is the right choice. who's to say you are right? so that's where you do try to educate yourself but sometimes you can get mislead and make wrong choices. and that is life. you do live and learn. and in some cases things turn out and sometimes they dont. making right and wrong choices is what makes us human. if we all made the right choices do you think we need God then? enough said.
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#204 of 289 Old 06-07-2006, 05:56 PM
 
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Originally Posted by twinsr4me
oh, one more thing might I add. granted children dont have a choice of whether or not to be circed but are you not their parent? they also dont have a choice in their name, do they? some people grow up hating their name. there are things they dont choose but you as a parent choose for them, right? well that is your right as their parent. and sure you do want to make the right choices for them, but sometimes you don't entirely know what that is. so you make what [/U]you [/U]think is the right choice. who's to say you are right? so that's where you do try to educate yourself but sometimes you can get mislead and make wrong choices. and that is life. you do live and learn. and in some cases things turn out and sometimes they dont. making right and wrong choices is what makes us human. if we all made the right choices do you think we need God then? enough said.
Hello there. I just wanted to point out a few things in your post. No, a child cannot choose for himself whether or not to be circumcised, but as an adult he sure can! And since there is absolutely no reason why he can't make the decision for himself, then why should a parent be able to make it? It is not their body, it should not be their choice to have cosmetic surgery preformed on it.

As far as names go, sure your child might hate his name but the big difference here is he can change it if he is unhappy. Not so with circumcision. Once it is done, it is done. He is out of luck! A big part of his sexuality is gone forever

Sure, parents have rights and they should have rights to do what needs to be done to raise a happy, healthy child. But circumcision does not qualify in this because it is not necessary, and in many ways harmful. You have to draw the line somewhere where parents rights end and the rights of the child begin.

Take care,
Tara

Tara Momma to Callum and Gavin
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#205 of 289 Old 06-07-2006, 07:26 PM
 
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Why is it that people have a difficult time understanding the name of this forum? I am getting quite irked that posters (who wouldn't normally post here) come here just to admonish other people because they don't wish to read peoples honest opinions. If you don't like it, don't read it, skip it, or ignore it. No one is forcing you to come to this forum.

Many people are of the belief that when you know better you do better. Some people get it, some don't. I had a friend that was so anxious to have her premature son circumcised because she didn't want him to be different from her dh, because she didn't (and still doesn't have) a penis, and because (insert lame reason here...). Even after having all the info. presented to her, after doing all of her purported research, she still insisted that her second son be circ'd as well. Not because of some profound and overwhelming evidence that said that there were proven benefits to it (which there are NOT), she did it to appeal to her husband's insecurities and vanities. Why should I tolerate such utter ridiculousness in a friend? As the mother to these boys she should have fought harder to protect them from a surgery that she knew was completely unnecessary, imo. Her 'dear' husband has never changed a diaper and for the person insisting so vehemently to circ. to "match", he wasn't present for either one of his sons circumcisions as he was away on a fishing trip both times. Rather convieniant, don't you think?

So pardon me for my honesty and the fact that it appears to bother you so much that I would end a friendship over this issue. I'm not looking for your approval. I'm much more concerned with defending a person's choice to do with his body what he pleases, as an adult, and I'm therefore not so concerned if someone is "insulted" by my pov regarding circumcision and if it hurts their delicate sensibilities, but you know, it's not about YOU!
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#206 of 289 Old 06-07-2006, 08:56 PM
 
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Originally Posted by twinsr4me
I can give many people facts that Jesus is the answer and he was a real person and he is the son of God but does everyone believe it. No, people will do what they want to do and believe the way they want to and that is why it is called "free will".
"Judge not lest ye be judge" Ignorant isn't bliss but they have to find that out for themselves. We can try to help them but it is their life. Our job as humans is to Love God, Love Others and love ourselves in that order.
Anyways, to some it up LOVE!!!
I am so sorry, but I just have to say that's not really the best comparison. While I think it's absolutely great that you don't condemn those who don't believe, many, many others absolutely will not be around anyone who doesn't. I think that is way worse to scream about how people are going to hell or aren't going to be "saved" than to tell someone that they are wrong for mutilating the genitals of their infant.

There's a huge difference there. Religion is more of a theoretical belief, IMO, and no one can prove anything one way or the other until you, uh, meet your maker, so to speak. And then, you can't tell anyone else what you know. The facts are there about circumcision.
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#207 of 289 Old 06-07-2006, 08:57 PM
 
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Originally Posted by calngavinsmom
Hello there. I just wanted to point out a few things in your post. No, a child cannot choose for himself whether or not to be circumcised, but as an adult he sure can! And since there is absolutely no reason why he can't make the decision for himself, then why should a parent be able to make it? It is not their body, it should not be their choice to have cosmetic surgery preformed on it.

As far as names go, sure your child might hate his name but the big difference here is he can change it if he is unhappy. Not so with circumcision. Once it is done, it is done. He is out of luck! A big part of his sexuality is gone forever

Sure, parents have rights and they should have rights to do what needs to be done to raise a happy, healthy child. But circumcision does not qualify in this because it is not necessary, and in many ways harmful. You have to draw the line somewhere where parents rights end and the rights of the child begin.

Take care,
Tara
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#208 of 289 Old 06-08-2006, 04:25 AM
 
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I am not a perfect parent. My gut reaction to circumcision is disgust and for a long time I couldn't bond with moms who circed but 6 years into motherhood, I have found that the comfort I feel with women who are open-minded is so refreshing compared to the dogmatic, competitive perfect moms that tend to be attracted to AP. I'm sorry to be so brazen but, a good majority of my friends have boys that are circed for various reasons. I think it is gross and feel opposed to circumcision but we do nothing by judging women who live in a society and a culture that promotes this ritual as better fro one reason or another. I don't think it is easy for these women to see their children in pain and I don't think they don't suffer, I just think that it's a battle of propoganda and usually the mainstream, fear-mongering wins.

Could i have a friend that voted for Bush? NEVER. Go figure.

BTW- I do respect that if you can't get past it, than don't stay friends with the person. It's pretty simple. The women I am friends with whose kids are circed happen to be extraordinary women who are intelligent and thoughtful. That should be an indication of how important education and sensitivity are with regard to this issue. Just my opinion.
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#209 of 289 Old 06-08-2006, 05:46 AM
 
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I am TRYING to remain friends with this woman. She doesn't want to hear the facts because as far as she is concerned, it is NOT mutilation, it does NOT scar, and is NO BIG DEAL. She refuses to read the literature I give her because she knows I might just be right.

That kind of child neglect (IMO) is unconsionable to me. What is the harm in looking into the risks (many) vs. benefits (none) of the surgery? I think any good parent, when offered the information, ought to at least read it, dissect it, ache to prove it wrong, if you want, but ultimately, know that you've done the best you could by knowing as much as you can about it.

To refuse the information is to be no better than a child who plugs their ears pretending not to hear a parent say it is bedtime, or a person who refuses to read history on the Holocoust because it is just too horrible to believe. "If I've never gotten the information, then I can pretend it isn't true." If your POV is so "right-on" then why would you not welcome opposing viewpoints and counter them? The only reason is because you CAN'T counter them.

As hard as I try to look past her attitude on this issue, I just don't think our friendship will last very long.

That said, I have a good friend who circ'd her son because she didn't know any better. Well, if you don't know any better, then I can understand that. But pretending you don't know any better to justify abuse? Nah, I can't accept that.
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#210 of 289 Old 06-08-2006, 10:38 AM
 
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I dont have any friends that circ, but my SIL circed her son and I *have* to be friends with her. IF she wasn't my SIL I'd probably not be friends with her at all. She also quit breastfeeding her DD who was nursing perfectly fine for 4 weeks. Grrr!

If I did have a friend who circed I'd probably still be friends with her if the relationship went way back, but I'd be dissapointed.
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