Circumcision - Why is it bad? - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 122 Old 07-31-2006, 06:46 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Sorry if my title is offensive but I wanted to get everyone's attention. I have read up on the issue just a little little bit so far and honestly I have only found positive reasons for circumsizing (like I said I haven't done much research yet). Well I'm just curious why it's so bad- I'm not asking for personal opinions b/c that's not going to help my research. If you have medical and scientific reasons why circumcision shouldn't be done please please post it here b/c I would like to know a LOT more about this topic.

Right now I am in the middle of this whole issue. I have only heard a few things from both sides of the issue but not enough to sway me to one side or the other. If I end up having a boy I want to be 100% behind which ever decision I make. But yea I'd like to see what some of you have to say b/c I never realized this was such a hot topic-mainly b/c in my family everyone was circumcised for religious purposes so it was never discussed. Since that won't be the case I'm curious to know more about the subject.
BTW thanks in advance to anyone who can enlighten me on the subject.

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#2 of 122 Old 07-31-2006, 06:57 PM
 
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Well - are you going to have his earlobe chopped off? His eyelid? So why would you ever consider having any other perfectly healthy, perfectly normal, perfectly wonderful piece of skin cut off? Did you circumcize your daughters to prevent yeast infections, uti's etc? Would you? Would you circumcize yourself if you had repeated uti's or yeast infections?

Umm, and it's not your body, it's his so why would you do something so irreversible to a harmless baby?

If you don't circumcize, he can always change his mind later, but if you do - it's done, and gone.

What reasons have you found that make you think it is the right thing to do?
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#3 of 122 Old 07-31-2006, 06:58 PM
 
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be nice guys. just give the clinical facts this time around. thats all she wants. i will write up a post in a second

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#4 of 122 Old 07-31-2006, 07:02 PM
 
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Dear Confused Princess,

Someone recently asked the same question. A lady gained custody of several children when her sister died unexpectedly

I was amazed at the quality of the evidence and reasoning as well as the speed of the responses. Here is a link to the thread:

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=488387

Hope this helps.

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#5 of 122 Old 07-31-2006, 07:05 PM
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I don't normally post here...but I can think of one very real reason not to. The procedure can be preformed incorrectly and the results can be just awful. Not only swelling and infection (which can happen even in a perfectly executed procedure) but then a lifetime of deformity and nerve damage and then trying to decide whether or not to expose your child to yet another surgery to cosmetically "fix" the first procedure.


Happened to us. DS2 is almost three and still has problems.
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#6 of 122 Old 07-31-2006, 07:09 PM
 
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Here are some facts you need to know about the foreskin.

The foreskin, not the head, is the most sensitive part of the normal, intact penis.

The moveable shaft skin of an intact penis facilitates intercourse, reducing friction and prolonging pleasurable sex for both male and female.

The foreskin aids in foreplay; lubricants are optional.

An intact penis will have no circumcision scar, will often have less hair drawn up onto its shaft, and will on average be somewhat larger than a circumcised penis.

The foreskin protects and lubricates the head or “glans” of the penis for the life of its owner.
80-85% of the world’s male population has intact genitals, including nearly all European males (please note that HIV/AIDS rates are actually lower in Europe than in America).

Care of the intact infant penis is actually much easier as there is no wound care, it should never be retracted by anyone other than the child.

The forskin contains three to four feet of blood vessels, 240 feet of nerves, and 10-20,000 specialized nerve endings.

Male circumsision permanently diminishes the sexual feelings for both male and female.

No health organization in the world recommends circumcision for male infants.

The circumcision rate in the USA has fallen from 90% in 1970 to roughly 53% today.

There are NO medical benifits with routine infant circumcision. It is a cosmetic surgery, and as such most insurance companies will NOT pay for it.

When the forskin is removed 30% of sexual pleasure goes with it. Depending on the type of circ and the dr doing it up 30-50% of the total penile skin is lost.


Odds are the intact penis will be the norm depending on what part of the USA you live in.
I repeat from above there are NO medical benifits NONE, ZERO to RIC insurance companies are not paying for it more and more since it is considered a cosmetic surgery.

As long as proper care is taken of the intact penis ie. NEVER RETRACT IT WASH IT LIKE A FINGER AND NEVER LET ANY ONE ELSE RETRACT IT. The intact penis will work as nature intended. The foreskin is like the vagina it is self cleaning for the most part until puberty and sexual activity start there is no need to clean under it unless the owner of the penis just wants to do so.

The resources sticky has tons of great info and websites that go indepth as to the reason why circ is so bad.
Here is a link to that sticky: http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=207626

Please watch the circ video for yourself be warned tho it is graphic and can cause nightmares

 
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#7 of 122 Old 07-31-2006, 07:15 PM
 
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Routine circumcisions implies that all baby boys are born needing surgery. We spend 9 mths hoping that we will have a perfect and healthy baby but then (in the US anyway) if it's a boy even when born with all the right parts that's not good enough, with in a day or two of life baby boys "need" to have cosmetic surgery on their genitals. Does that make sense at all, when you think of it like that doesn't it seem absurd?!!

www.mothersagainstcirc.org
www.nocirc.org
www.noharmm.org
These are just a few sites of many that should answer your questions.

OUR DAUGHTERS ARE PROTECTED SHOULDN'T OUR SONS BE TOO! :
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#8 of 122 Old 07-31-2006, 07:16 PM
 
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The plusses you have probably read:

Lower's UTI's:

Myth: The studies that show this lowers UTI's the test subjects were primarily premies who were circed. That and the chance of an intact male has a lower chance of a UTI than an intact girl.

Also, countries that perform female circumcisions claim they also lower UTI's.



Lower's chances of STD's:

Myth: Condoms do this. The recent studies in africa have been debunked by the respectable medical community. The only publishes that this study are getting are ones that the backers are paying for. No free medical publication has published the findings of this study. This is the Aids study I am talking about.

The study is faulty because they took 2 equal groups of men. Circumcized 1/2 of them and then sent them on their way and studied their findings. Well the intact men were having sex during the first 8-12 weeks it took the circumcized men to recover from their surgery.

They cut the study short because the circumcized men were winding up getting HIV at a faster rate than the Intact men, if they would have continued the study to its completion it would have reversed the results but the backers were wanting to Prove Circ was better, not get true scientific facts.







Onto the pros of intact.




The Foreskin is a prepuce. It is actually adhered to the head of the penis for the first 3-13 years of a childs life. It can detatch earlier but it is rare.


This prepuce is designed to keep bacteria and bad things away from the head of the penis, as well as protect it from outside damage. It is a protective layer of skin.


The head of a penis is actually intended to be an internal organ. Much like the Clitoris. The clitoris CAN be exposed to air, but for the most part it remains behind the safety of the clitoral hood, which is similar but not equal to the forskin.


The head of the penis is supposed to be kept moist. When you circumcize someone it removes this. It causes the head of the penis to dry out, and rub against foreign surfaces constantly. This causes the head of the penis to becom scarred and katerinized. It actually desensitizes the penis. Men will say 'I orgasm just fine'

That may be true, but sex for a man should be similar to sex for a woman. A woman typically enjoys the entire act, the orgasm is the culmination of the act. A man only looks forward to the orgasm in their experiance if they are circumcized. If a man is intact he enjoys the entire experiance more.


Some men who have restored their forskins through excerises you can find at www.norm.org have claimed that they can now feel the actualy differences in the different areas of the vagina during intercourse. This is because restoring the foreskin helps to restore the feeling in the glans/head of the penis.




Onto the foreskin itself. It is almost 50% of the skin of the penis full of erotic and sensual nerves. It is not just a usesless piece of skin. It is used during masturbation. Foreplay and Intercourse. It gives pleasure to the person who owns it during these acts. It has 3 pieces. The foreskin/Ridged Band/Mucousal skin.

The foreskin is the elastic outer protective coating, the mucousal skin is nearly identicle to the type of tissue found underneath the eyelid and the ridged band is the tip of the foreskin that will help to keep the foreskin tight when flacid.


When circumcized you lose the mucousal skin and the ridged band, they can not be recovered during the restoration process.

Another piece that is lost during the Circumcision is the frenulum. It is similar to the piece of skin that attatches your gums to your lower lip in the front of your mouth, or the piece that attatches the tounge to the bottom of the mouth.



On an intact penis this is found at the base of the head. It is the most sensitive part of the penis, and is destroyed during a circumcision. You may find that the man you are with is slightly more sensitive in this place even if he is circumcized, but it is utterly different for men who are intact. And this is destroyed and can never be recovered.




80% of the worlds population is intact.

80% of the worlds viagra is sold in america


of that 20% of the world that is circumcized? over 17% of them reside in america.


Think that viagra sales correlate to circumcision?

Erectyle dysfunction is more rampant in younger demographics in america than reported in other countries.



I was circumcized when I was a baby. I wish I wasn't.

This is a surgery that can not be undone, it should be left to the person who owns the penis when they are old enough to sign their own papers if they want to get it done......


It is a cosmetic surgery. Majority of the medical insurance companies in america will not pay for this because it is 'elective' which means 'cosmetic' or 'unnessesary'





Doesn't it seem insane that we would put our children through a major surgery within a week of being alive just because of cosmetics?





One last thing...... 200 babies world wide die of circ's a year (statistically) and yes, a few of those are in the states.... more than a few actually.... but they put the cause of death as 'Bleeding to death' or 'complications to a circumcision'.......


no children bleed to death a year due to having a foreskin, there is a risk of death in EVERY surgery...... why risk it?

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#9 of 122 Old 07-31-2006, 07:23 PM
 
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There are no medical reasons to do this,well I certainly don't believe the one's they are coming up with, but I guess maybe you do, it's a big con and there was me thinking we women had it bad. I can't comprehend why parents would want to do this to their beautiful sons. Beyond belief. I cannot help but give a personal opinion on this. This world is worrying.
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#10 of 122 Old 07-31-2006, 07:33 PM
 
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AAP considers it cosmetic surgery.

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#11 of 122 Old 07-31-2006, 07:37 PM
 
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No medical organization in the world recommends routine infant circumcision. The AAP (American Association of Pediatrics) even states that it's not beneficial (although their statement is a little too wishy-washy for my tastes!).

Circumcision is a completely cosmetic surgery performed on an unconsenting newborn. How do you know that your son doesn't want his foreskin? What gives anyone the right to remove another person's body parts?

This article is a great one: http://www.mothering.com/articles/ne...cumcision.html
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#12 of 122 Old 07-31-2006, 07:43 PM
 
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When I think about it the first thought that comes to mind is why if you are born a girl you are born perfect but if you are a boy you "need" to be fixed? Why is it so important to punish a boy for being born a boy?

Just a few thoughts that go thru my mind every day when I think of RIC.

 
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#13 of 122 Old 07-31-2006, 07:49 PM
 
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[quote]iReasons Not to have it done.

- Circumcision is very unnecessary. In the USA, we are often talked scared about stories of UTI’s and penile cancer among a multitude of other supposed problems with the penis. All that is is scare-talking. Every medical organization states that circumcision is unnecessary.

- Circumcision is an inherently painful procedure. The American Academy of Pediatrics is clear, that no matter what sort of pain-killer used, all babies show physiological signs of pain. Pain is not only felt during the procedure, but also after the procedure during the time that the wound is healing.

- During a circumcision the foreskin is torn off of the head of the penis. The foreskin is attached to the head of the penis like a fingernail is to a finger bed. The whole circumcision procedure leaves the penis to be one giant scab. You can not bathe a newly circumcised boy. A newly circumcised penis must be carefully cared for with gauze pads, Vaseline, etc. Diaper changes must be frequent is prevent feces and urine from creping into the wound. The care of an intact penis however, is incredibly easy. You just wipe to urine/feces off. End of story.

- Many nerve endings are taken away during a circumcision. The foreskin is packed with fine sensory nerves; when these are cut away, they never return. Think of how it would be if you had no labia? Often during neo-natal circumcision the frenulum is removed, or damaged so that it fails to develop. The frenulum is a very sensitive part of the penis. Also, the glans of the penis undergoes significant desensitization as a result of circumcision. The glans in meant to be an internal structure, but as it rubs up against the clothing of a circumcised man, it gradually keratinizes. There may also be a relationship between erectile dysfunction and circumcision. Just look at the difference is Viagra sales between largely circumcised USA and largely uncircumcised Europe.

- Being uncircumcised is not only sexually beneficial for the man, but also for his female partner. Female lubrication issues are usually not female issues at all. Rather, these issues stem from the removal of the foreskin, which acts during sexual intercourse to keep much lubrication in the vagina. The presence of a foreskin causes the thrusting motions of the male to be different; more pleasurable for the woman. For those lucky women who have a g-spot, the foreskin “bunches up” right where the g-spot is, and caused the g-spot to be better stimulated. Here’s an interesting study. http://www.nzma.org.nz/journal/116-1181/595/

- The complication rate for neo-natal circumcision can be as high as 35%. These complications include infections and bleeding. Meatitis and meatal stenosis are more serious complications that have been reported to occur in 8% to 21% of circumcised infants.

There are many other reasons, I'm sure will be mentioned here.
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#14 of 122 Old 07-31-2006, 07:53 PM
 
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One of the big factors for us was realizing that if at some point in the future the medical community realizes that circumcision cures all my ds can always have it done then.

If, on the other hand, if we had it done and later the medical community realizes that circ is unneeded and damaging my ds would be stuck with the results of my decision.

If ds wants it done later that's his decision.

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#15 of 122 Old 07-31-2006, 08:05 PM
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Every day, I thank the heavens above that I left my son intact (did NOT circumcise him.) He is perfect the way he is. God and/or Mother Nature is in charge of everything, including the foreskin. I know you just wanted facts, but that's my fact.

"Our task is not to see the future, but to enable it."
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#16 of 122 Old 07-31-2006, 08:34 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConfusedPrincess
Sorry if my title is offensive but I wanted to get everyone's attention. I have read up on the issue just a little little bit so far and honestly I have only found positive reasons for circumsizing (like I said I haven't done much research yet). Well I'm just curious why it's so bad- I'm not asking for personal opinions b/c that's not going to help my research. If you have medical and scientific reasons why circumcision shouldn't be done please please post it here b/c I would like to know a LOT more about this topic.

Right now I am in the middle of this whole issue. I have only heard a few things from both sides of the issue but not enough to sway me to one side or the other. If I end up having a boy I want to be 100% behind which ever decision I make. But yea I'd like to see what some of you have to say b/c I never realized this was such a hot topic-mainly b/c in my family everyone was circumcised for religious purposes so it was never discussed. Since that won't be the case I'm curious to know more about the subject.
BTW thanks in advance to anyone who can enlighten me on the subject.
I wish you would think about it from the other side. Why is it right?? Why would you have unnecessary surgery performed on a newborn?

If you can explain to us why you think he needs this surgery then we can better address your concerns. You have been given a lot of information so far, what do you think?
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#17 of 122 Old 07-31-2006, 08:48 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poppyqwn
I don't normally post here...but I can think of one very real reason not to. The procedure can be preformed incorrectly and the results can be just awful. Not only swelling and infection (which can happen even in a perfectly executed procedure) but then a lifetime of deformity and nerve damage and then trying to decide whether or not to expose your child to yet another surgery to cosmetically "fix" the first procedure.


Happened to us. DS2 is almost three and still has problems.
Thank you for taking the time to post here. Everyone always thinks it will happen to someone else. I had a botched circ as an infant and a botched re-circ at age six. The bottom line is that I'm the one who has had to live with the results my whole life, not my parents, not the doctors, nor anyone else in this society or any religious community. The worst thing about it is knowing it was all for no good reason.

Thanks again for speaking out. My best wishes to you and your son.
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#18 of 122 Old 07-31-2006, 09:12 PM
 
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Hi there and welcome. Congrats on your pregnancy. I have two boys who are intact and also am very pleased with this decision. the more I learn about circumcision, the more glad I am actually for the decision we made. I too want to second checking out the "Web Resources" sticky at the top of the forum. Lot of good stuff there. I also like this article:
http://www.circumcision.org/studies.htm
It is a summary of recent medical studies concerning circumcision complete with references if you would like to read the whole article.

Also, I would be curious to know what positive reasons you have found for circumcision? I have yet to find one that is actually true, most are based on myth and outdated information. It might be easier to have your concerns adressed specifically, that way, nothing gets overlooked

Good luck to you on your information quest, I hope you find what you are looking for!

Take care,
Tara

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#19 of 122 Old 07-31-2006, 09:14 PM
 
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Hi! Thank you for taking the time to make a decision before the baby is born! It is great to have plenty of time to decide and make the decision/agreement together with your partner.

1) Many of us know someone where there were complications of the circ. This could be a "slip of the knife" or a bad infection. In some cases, complications result in significant or total loss of sexual function. These complications are "dealt with" by urologists and may require general anesthesia for attempted repair. Not something any parent wants to risk for their baby. The peds and ob/gyns keep doing circs - they don't realize the mess they are making because complications are always referred to a specialist.

2) "Pain relief" is given in 30-50% of infant circs. But even with the "pain relief" the newborn will feel pain. Last year I had a mole removed from my face, and got 2 injections of novacaine at the site. It was increadibly painful, worse than any dental injection of novacaine I have ever had. This is the same stuff they use on newborns, and will hurt the newborns too.

3) Even with an anesthetic, the infant's body can detect that it is being cut, and go into shock. The shock and recovery period can interfere with the breastfeeding relationship.

4) Circ rates are less than 50% in the US (and 0-10% in many European countries) And they are dropping. So your kid may feel "weird" or "different" if he is circed.

Best regards,

-sleeplessMommy
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#20 of 122 Old 07-31-2006, 09:26 PM
 
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Research what the foreskin is FOR:

http://research.cirp.org (based on two papers published in the British Journal of Urology)

http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcision.org (scroll down to the web video titled "The Prepuce"

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#21 of 122 Old 07-31-2006, 09:41 PM
 
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I'm glad you asked and so will your baby be!

Have you looked at the stickies at the top of the forum? They are full of lots of good medical information as well as reasons to answer any social/cultural questions you may have as well.

It would be an excellent place to start.

Mom of a 7 yr old, 4 yr old, and 1 yr old. Wow. How did that happen?
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#22 of 122 Old 07-31-2006, 10:02 PM
 
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Welcome! And because you already have a wealth of information from others, I'm unsure whether you will welcome any more! But...

'Dr Janet Menage, MA, MB, ChB
England

Circumcision is a euphemism for genital reduction surgery or genital mutilation, performed by medically-licensed or unqualified practitioners for various reasons. It is important to define it honestly, for that is how the mind interprets it, with or without superimposed denials, explanations and intellectualisations.

Many circumcisions are performed on children, who, by definition are not able to give informed consent of the kind available to adults. They are vulnerable to coercion and manipulation and generally have little say in what happens to their bodies medically & surgically. They are not usually allowed to say no to medical procedures because it is deemed that parents & doctors "know best". However, it is unlikely that any child, asked if they would like a person with a knife to cut off part of their penis, would agree to such an action. This would be a normal psychological reaction to the threat of attack and is overruled at some psychological cost.

One man, who had been subjected to circumcision at the age of three years old, vividly recalled at the age of thirty, how he had been undressed and his penis manipulated by a man in a mask pre-operatively, without his consent. The child had experienced an erection about which he was embarrassed, and then, post-operatively found himself with a bleeding, painful penis from which the foreskin had been amputated without his permission. This event had changed his life. He was angry that this had been done to him and humiliated by his powerlessness to protect himself from what felt like sexual manipulation. He felt that he had been sexually abused. In any other context than the medical one, the same sequence of events would be open to an interpretation of sexual abuse. To the child, the psychological impact is the same, whether it is illegal rape or legalised medical activity.

Another man, who was circumcised at the age of seven, asked what was going to happen to him in hospital. He was told that it was "nothing" and he didn't need to worry his head about it. After the operation he was devastated to find that part of his penis was missing and that his trust in his parents' words had been misplaced. It was as if his experience of losing part of his body was not worth a mention or an explanation.

The child may grow up in ignorance of his circumcision, particularly if it has been done shortly after birth and if his peers are also circumcised. However, when it is discovered that part of his genitalia has been removed without his permission, often for no good reason, there is a loss reaction amounting to grief. The loss may be minimised and trivialised so as not to expose the mind to too much psychic pain; the pain of loss is profound. There may be a denial of its significance and, in order to maintain the image of the parent as "good", it may be idealised as a "good thing" which parents should do to their children if they care about them. Hence, the transgenerational passage of circumcision practice from father to son. For the cycle of mutilation to be broken, at least one generation would need to face the true nature of the activity and acknowledge the harm and the pain caused. This is a courageous act, since it brings into play feelings of betrayal and abandonment by one's own parents; that instead of protecting one's body from harm, they have given their child into the hands of a stranger to remove part of his body.

The intellectualisation of a harmful act is a way of turning "bad" into "good" - the thought process may run thus: "my parents cut off part of my body and despite the fact that I didn't like it, my parents are good - so cutting off part of my body was good - therefore, to be a good parent myself, I must do the same to my son...". And so the cycle of abuse continues. Similarly within the medical profession- "I was circumcised/have done circumcisions - I was not harmed/have not harmed my patients - therefore to circumcise is trivial, harmless and necessary..." If the doctor is in a process of trying to deny that he has been harmed by his own circumcision, he may be psychologically compelled to repeat the act on his patients to "prove" that circumcision is "harmless". In addition, when a circumcision victim becomes a circumciser, he is no longer powerless to attack - he is now the powerful attacker, thus redressing some of the balance in relation to his own fear of repetition of his own trauma.

Most important of all, is to enter the child's world and see circumcision for what it is from the child's perspective. It is a forced robbery of a treasured part of his body and nobody except he, as an adult, can legitimately give permission for its removal.'

And...

We all know and acknowledge the protective function of the foreskin. During a boy's early years it serves as an excellent barrier against infection. At muturity it keeps the glans soft, moist and exquisitely sensitive.

But these benefits are the precursor to the paramount part the foreskin plays during the sexual act itself. I cannot do better than copy here a section from a post in your thread which quoted Paul Fliess. Here it is again...

* Coverage During Erection: As it becomes erect, the penile shaft becomes thicker and longer. The double-layered foreskin provides the skin necessary to accommodate the expanded organ and to allow the penile skin to glide freely, smoothly, and pleasurably over the shaft and glans.
* Self-Stimulating Sexual Functions: The foreskin's double-layered sheath enables the penile shaft skin to glide back and forth over the penile shaft. The foreskin can normally be slipped all the way, or almost all the way, back to the base of the penis, and also slipped forward beyond the glans. This wide range of motion is the mechanism by which the penis and the orgasmic triggers in the foreskin, frenulum, and glans are stimulated.
* Sexual Functions in Intercourse: One of the foreskin's functions is to facilitate smooth, gentle movement between the mucosal surfaces of the two partners during intercourse. The foreskin enables the penis to slip in and out of the vagina nonabrasively inside its own slick sheath of self-lubricating, moveable skin. The female is thus stimulated by moving pressure rather than by friction only, as when the male's foreskin is missing.
* The foreskin fosters intimacy between the two partners by enveloping the glans and maintaining it as an internal organ. The sexual experience is enhanced when the foreskin slips back to allow the male's internal organ, the glans, to meet the female's internal organ, the cervix - a moment of supreme intimacy and beauty.

I can attest to this - and its opposite effect following circumcision.

Christopher

Education is the discovery of our own ignorance. Will Durant

 

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#23 of 122 Old 07-31-2006, 10:26 PM
 
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It is bad because it strips a person of his human right to decide on his own which permanent physical alterations with severe consequences he wants. Not even parents have that right.
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#24 of 122 Old 07-31-2006, 10:30 PM
 
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Good for you for looking into it before it's too late! It can't be undone.
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#25 of 122 Old 07-31-2006, 10:43 PM
 
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Please visit this site:

www.doctorsopposingcircumcision.org

Watch the video called "The Prepuce" and then you will truly understand why you should NOT cut it off of your child. If it doesn't play for you please read this info. instead:

http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcisi.../foreskin.html

Circumcision hurts. It is damaging. Have you seen the "graphic circ video" thread yet? A must if you are really considering it:

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/161143..._circumcision/

The prepuce (foreskin) is a healthy functional tissue. It is not a birth defect. I suspect that you have been conditioned to believe that it is. It does not belong to you either. Ethically speaking, it is the true property of your son.

He can always cut it off...but it can never be replaced. He should be the one to weigh the facts about his own penis. It really should be his decision.
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#26 of 122 Old 07-31-2006, 10:44 PM
 
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Everyone has written fabulous responses, so what they said and, I did not do it to my son because it would hurt him and the "reasons" to circ were not good enough for me to put him though that.

Mama to Q (9/03) and M (12/06) :
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#27 of 122 Old 08-01-2006, 02:10 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MRDCatLvr
80-85% of the world’s male population has intact genitals, including nearly all European males (please note that HIV/AIDS rates are actually lower in Europe than in America).

I'm still in teh middle of reading everything..thanks to those who have supported info. I appreciate it...anyways I was curious where you got this-the part about European males ...Anyways I still have a lot more to read..
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#28 of 122 Old 08-01-2006, 02:11 AM
 
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Good for you for finding info.

You've got good info here, nothing really to add.

Except to remind that circumcision started in USA 100 years ago to stop boys from masturbating.

Over 80% of world's men are intact and in many places - like here in Scandinavia - doctors flat out refuse to do it. It is concidered human rights violation.

Scandinavia is 100% intact. Our STD&HIV rates are lowest in western world, penile cancer is so rare that there aren't any statistics to provide and LESS than 6 men out of
100 000 get themselves circumcised either for religious or medical reasons. That pretty much makes foreskin one of the healthiest bodypart on human body.

These kind of comments started circumcision in USA 100 years ago;

"There can be no doubt of [masturbation's] injurous effect, and of the proneness to practice it on the part of children with defective brains. Circumcision should always be practiced. It may be necessary to make the genitals so sore by blistering fluids that pain results from attempts to rub the parts." -- Angel Money. Treatment of Disease In Children.Philidelphia: P. Blakiston, 1887. p.421

1888: 15% of the U.S. male population circumcised
"A remedy [for masturbation] which is almost always successful in small boys is circumcision. The operation should be performed by a surgeon without administering an anesthetic, as the pain attending the operation will have a salutary effect upon the mind, especially if it be connected with the idea of punishment." John Harvey Kellogg [the breakfast cereal tycoon], Treatment for Self-Abuse and Its Effects, Plain Facts for Old and Young, Burlington, Iowa: P. Segner & Co. 1888, p. 295.

1895: 15% of the U.S. male population circumcised
"In all cases of masturbation circumcision is undoubtedly the physicians' closest friend and ally ... To obtain the best results one must cut away enough skin and mucous membrane to rather put it on the stretch when erections come later. There must be no play in the skin after the wound has thoroughly healed, but it must fit tightly over the penis, for should there be any play the patient will be found to readily resume his practice, not begrudging the time and extra energy required to produce the orgasm. It is true, however, that the longer it takes to have an orgasm, the less frequently it will be attempted, consequently the greater the benefit gained ... The younger the patient operated upon the more pronounced the benefit, though occasionally we find patients who were circumcised before puberty that require a resection of the skin, as it has grown loose and pliant after that epoch." E. J. Spratling, Masturbation in the Adult, Medical Record, vol. 24 (1895): pp. 442-443.
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#29 of 122 Old 08-01-2006, 02:15 AM
 
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anyways I was curious where you got this-the part about European males

Well, I am from Europe. Circumcision is not done here. Doctors in many places refuse to do it.

If you asked an avarage man in Europe to get circumcise because of health reasons he would probably laugh at you ... if you asked European dad to circumcise his son he would probably punch you and think you are somekind of crazy sick person. Male circumcision is concidered as bad as female circ here. Why on earth would anyone cut baby's genitals?
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#30 of 122 Old 08-01-2006, 02:19 AM
 
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Thank you so much for looking into this You're such a wonderful mom! Everyone else has given you a good amount of helpful facts, and I'd like to share some personal experience.

My husband is intact (not circumcised) and he has never had any problems with his foreskin. He is very happy that he has it and I am very happy that he has it too. The intact penis looks so natural and normal and the foreskin is SUCH an integral part of the penis that I can't even imagine how a circumcised penis works (having never been with a circumcised man). My brothers were both circumcised because "it's what you do with baby boys" (what my mom told me when I was 11). My mom (and brothers)didn't have a choice because she didn't have the information to make an informed decision. I am so thankful that my MIL DID have that information and protected my wonderful husband when he was too young to protect himself

One of the best reasons for not circumcising is that if your son decides to be circumcised later in life he can always have it done. If you circumcise him as a baby then he can never again be intact no matter how much he may want to be...

love and peace.

mama to two girls and due in November!
: Circumcision can never be undone :
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