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#1 of 102 Old 08-30-2006, 10:32 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Seriously, I have done a ton of research... and so has my husband. He is well educated, knows all of the arguments and still is not budging; he is still for circumcision. It makes me want to vomit and shakes me to my very core. We are planning to sit down and resolve this once and for all on Saturday. (I am due Nov 3rd)

I have looked everywhere and found nothing that answers the one question that would put me at ease somewhat...

If we can not agree, (basicly if he does not decide to let it go) do I have any legal rights to prevent my husband from having the surgery done without my consent as well? I live in Charlotte, NC. Is there anything that I can do to protect my son?

Seriously, please. I don't want my marriage to end over this, but this cuts me so deeply that I don't know that I would ever get over it. I'd rather him cheat on me than to hurt my son.

(and don't anyone dare tell me it's not that bad, I'm a cornered momma bear who is likely to strike.)

Thank you for any help you can give me. I just need breathing space.
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#2 of 102 Old 08-30-2006, 10:37 PM
 
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Contact John Geisheker from Docs opposing circ. He is wonderful and from what I know, yes you can stop it. If the hospital does a circ without your consent they are asking for a legal issue.

Heres their link- http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcision.org/

I will PM you his email addy too-

Beth
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#3 of 102 Old 08-30-2006, 10:38 PM
 
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You poor thing.
I'm so sorry. I don't know the specifics of the law, but I know others here do. When my ds was born, my dh and I weren't yet married....and I was not going to put him on the birth certificate, if it came right down to it. luckily it did not.

What is your dh's reasoning for not budging? He can't say "just because"....what are his reasons? Is it possible he is just in denial and needs more time to wrap his head around it?
Big hugs to you...and don't worry, you will never hear from me, at least, that it's not that bad. I would leave my dh if he insisted on circing just as I would leave him if he physically abused one of us. It IS that bad.
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#4 of 102 Old 08-30-2006, 10:42 PM
 
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I don't think anybody here will tell you "its not that bad"! !

Welcome. I hope your husband "comes around". All it took for my husband to not want to do it was to hear an actual medical professional (our pediatrician) in person say "its not necessary".

Have you told your husband what you've posted here? Do you have any idea why he wants to have it done? Is it a social thing? Does it just seem "normal" to him? Knowing this would help your approach. When I uploaded the video that's on my site, my husband helped with the technical part of making an online video. He had to watch that bit of the video over and over to get it "just right" and finally said "Anybody who can watch this and still do it...."
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#5 of 102 Old 08-30-2006, 10:44 PM
 
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no advice just keep on fighting the good fight.
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#6 of 102 Old 08-30-2006, 10:58 PM
 
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You need to speak to a lawyer a.s.a.p. It wouldn't hurt to tell your husband that you are going to do this too. You have a legal right to refuse circumcision, but you need to make sure that you secure some kind of an order of protection for your child, NOW. David L. is a good circ attorney to consult first. A poster above also gave his PM, he comes in here frequently, so you can try to reach him like that too. Here is his office number:

David Llellyn is a Circ attorney in Georgia. He would give you your best advice.

David J. Llewellyn
Lawyer in Atlanta, Georgia
Member
Firm: Johnson & Ward


Location
2100 The Equitable Building, 100 Peachtree Street N.W.
Atlanta, Georgia 30303-1912
(DeKalb & Fulton Cos.)


Contact Information
Phone: 404-524-5626
Facsimile: 404-524-1769
URL: http://www.johnsonward.com
URL: http://www.lawyers.com/jwlaw
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#7 of 102 Old 08-30-2006, 10:58 PM - Thread Starter
 
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It seems his main reason is that of masculinity. He also went to bording school and was one who looked down on boys who were not circ'd in the locker room. he doesn't want there to be any social problems with it.

I think it is a bogus crap argument.

My husband and I have different ideas of what a real man is... his are pretty extreme and he discounts my opinion because I was raised in a matiartical family. He's also 350 lbs, 6 foot and large boned.... doesn't think he's physically intemidating.

He wants to throw out the medical and sexual arguments because of no concrete evidence either way. I'm left with religious and just standing my ground.
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#8 of 102 Old 08-30-2006, 11:04 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Oh, and I am homebirthing. There is no hospital involved, thank the good Lord.

Thank you for the lawyers number. I will wait until next Monday to call him if just knowing I have his info doesn't scare DH enough to back down. Thank you, thank you, thank you!!!
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#9 of 102 Old 08-30-2006, 11:05 PM
 
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I had one friend (not boyfriend) in college who was intact. Born in about 1968, he was one of a very few intact guys. His parents had pinned a note on him at the hospital or something. They used to circ without any consent, back then..

Now to my point - in his college years he was very quick to tell girls that he was intact - for example he told me, even though we were just friends. And it was definately a positive thing, the way he talked about it. He never mentioned any issue with being teased, just that he was special (in a good way) that he had not gotten circed, becuase his parents took extra care to prevent it.
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#10 of 102 Old 08-30-2006, 11:27 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zzwhitejd
It seems his main reason is that of masculinity. He also went to bording school and was one who looked down on boys who were not circ'd in the locker room. he doesn't want there to be any social problems with it.
What I would like to know is- what is a "real man" doing checking out other (men's, boy's) PENISES?? Seriously!

Your son can always choose to have it done later in life when he is mature enough to make that decision, but it can never be given back to him once it is gone. Stand your ground.
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#11 of 102 Old 08-30-2006, 11:28 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I agree completely. I am fine with having it done later, like after age 13 if HE wants it done.

kldliam- your inbox is full and won't let me reply.
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#12 of 102 Old 08-30-2006, 11:31 PM
 
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hold on...i'll fix that!
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#13 of 102 Old 08-30-2006, 11:44 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zzwhitejd
I agree completely. I am fine with having it done later, like after age 13 if HE wants it done.

kldliam- your inbox is full and won't let me reply.
I don't believe that at 13 anyone would be mature enough to make that sort of decision. I was thinking more along the lines of 18+. But if you can convince your husband just to let it be, any time is better than no time. Your husband would probably come around as he gets used to it.

My husband was totally pro-circ. I told him that I did research and had decided not to do it. I also told him that if he did his own research, and came to a different conclusion than I did, that I would discuss it. I knew he wouldn't be able to come to a different conclusion than that it was a bad idea. Needless to say, DH is now an intactavist!
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#14 of 102 Old 08-30-2006, 11:57 PM - Thread Starter
 
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You are right about 13 being young... but DH's main concern seems to be locker room related. I truely believe that if by that age I have not been able to instill in him (and I totally believe that I will be fully able to equip him with the assurance that he is better off than the poor boys who lost theirs) that his intact organ is not a plus, that he might never see it that way. And then to prevent locker room 'trauma' (that won't happen....) I would consent.

I totally don't believe it would ever happen.
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#15 of 102 Old 08-31-2006, 12:05 AM
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Here's a good article for YOU to read about what is going on in your dh's mind:

http://www.stopcirc.com/vincent/vuln...ty_of_men.html


I hope that helps some.

And stand your ground, mama!!!!!!!

Say: "It ain't happening, over my dead body." Or a nicer way to put it would be, "I just can't let you do that to our son." Repeat, repeat, repeat.

Has he watched a video of it yet?

http://www.intact.ca/video.html

Make sure you make him watch it with the sound up.

"Our task is not to see the future, but to enable it."
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#16 of 102 Old 08-31-2006, 12:12 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zzwhitejd
It seems his main reason is that of masculinity.
That's so interesting considering circumcision is genital reduction surgery and undeniably makes penises SMALLER.

Jen
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#17 of 102 Old 08-31-2006, 12:17 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I read that very article this afternoon...

In violition of my poor husband... this was his email response to an article I sent him via email about how some mothers responded... (at http://www.circumcision.org/mothers.htm)

Quote:
The one thing I really disliked was the following: Regarding circumcision, the father is more likely to deny his son’s pain because it could remind him of his own circumcision feelings.



That’s a crap sentence. It is written in an anti-man/feminist tone. It is as incorrect and inflammatory as writing “Women are more likely to ignore their own sons need for emergency room treatment for bleeding open wounds because it isn’t as much blood loss as during their own menses.” I mean come on, both are poor conclusions to draw – Why men may react to pain (anybodies pain: mother, son, wife, next door neighbor, their own, whatever) differently could be because a) they have no memory of the event, hence no negative memory of the event, b) the macho idea of it’s a boy and if he’s gonna grow up to be a man and not a wimp, he’s gonna know how to take pain because “life is pain and anyone who says differently is selling something” - Princess BrideJ c) the sound of a child crying may not resonate as deeply with a father as it would with a mother – women are more empathetic, especially with a baby that just recently came out of their body and for all intents and purposes was their body just a short time ago, but ultimately, d) just because that is the way that it is – like any other right of passage or test or something, there is pain but it is manageable and not soul-shattering. No one has ever reported an infant nervous breakdown from a circumcision. And he won’t hold a grudge or keep from bonding with mommy or become a serial killer because of a circumcision, because he won’t remember and you have years of solid relationship building in front of you. If it were a tumor, we would cut it out immediately. We removed Dory’s extra digits because of societal norms and teasing and (relatively) low health risk concerns. It was essentially cosmetic surgery. Same with circumcision.



I’m no rocket scientist, but to say that a father’s opinion about the pain of circumcision is invalid because he is repressing his own pain is beyond insulting, it’s bad logic and propaganda.



Some reasons why it may affect mommy more than daddy, or even baby:



mommy’s recently removed bump - mommy has had baby be a part of her body for 9 months. She OWNS this child – and now you’re going to hurt him and make him cry and scream? C’mon, in the heightened emotional state of post-partum (see baby blues) is it really fair to ask a mother to give a dispassionate assessment of what viewing and hearing a circumcision is? I absolutely believe those women feel and felt the way they did about circumcision – all I’m saying is that may not have been a fair time to ask them to make a value judgment on a contentious issue.
mommy’s special relationship - mommy has had the luxury/burden of being that baby’s everything and mommy has been able to fill every need, comfort every ill and now, after a week of mommy the perfect answer, she may get back a child whom she can’t automatically fix – which would put her in the uncomfortable position of being just like everyone else, especially daddy
Mommy will never forget, baby will never remember. It will always be worse for mommy, especially since pain is fleeting but guilt is forever.


Obviously, it is an article written for women and it strikes an emotional touchstone. Just remember I love you and we can work this out.
Reading that made me want to reply to his email "Barf."
Instead I replied "I will remind you; with Dorothy we were correcting a birth defect. With circumcision, you are cutting off a normal functioning portion of the body. There is no comparison there."

(For more on my daughter's polydactily genetic 'birth defect', see my blog: http://jenraymond.blogspot.com/2006/...bbed-toes.html & http://jenraymond.blogspot.com/2006/...looked-at.html)
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#18 of 102 Old 08-31-2006, 12:20 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pdx.mothernurture
That's so interesting considering circumcision is genital reduction surgery and undeniably makes penises SMALLER.

Jen
Yup!

(another Jen!)
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#19 of 102 Old 08-31-2006, 12:21 AM
 
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your son can be in the locker room with my sons. both my cut and intact ones. of the "sausage aisle" i have seen recently, our area is running about 70% cut- that means there are others around who are whole.

i told dh i could not do it. if he found a doc and took care of it with general anesthesia, fine. but then my dh can't do anything on his own so i knew it would be ok.
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#20 of 102 Old 08-31-2006, 12:24 AM
 
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Re: your husband's email, extra toes and tumors are birth defects or incompatible with life. Foreskins are perfectly normal and functional and natural. Everybody is born with one and they don't grow and destroy life. Whatever the rest was about men and pain and women and such... I think he's just working that all out in his mind. Pain is pain - no matter if you "remember" it or not. Girls, boys, women, men.
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#21 of 102 Old 08-31-2006, 12:26 AM
 
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About your blog, the extra finger is only just "hanging there" and doesn't look useful even. Foreskins are useful and meant to be there.
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#22 of 102 Old 08-31-2006, 12:27 AM
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If I were you, I'd quit arguing with him at this point in time. If it were my dh, I'd tell him that it's just not happening because I'm pulling rank as the mama, regardless of what he has to say, and he can meet me in divorce court if he secretly gets the boy circ'd.

"Our task is not to see the future, but to enable it."
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#23 of 102 Old 08-31-2006, 12:29 AM - Thread Starter
 
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nathan, you are absolutely right - He's very good at debate. I'm dyslexic and am not good at the spur of the moment things and recalling information when I need it most. He loves to corner people in arguments, it's about winning. He also feels that once you get emotional, you have lost control and have lost the argument.... this is COMPLETELY emotional for me - as I feel it should be.

I posted it so that someone reading might get a better understanding of his mindset and the way he deals with information.
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#24 of 102 Old 08-31-2006, 12:33 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zzwhitejd
nathan, you are absolutely right - He's very good at debate. I'm dyslexic and am not good at the spur of the moment things and recalling information when I need it most. He loves to corner people in arguments, it's about winning. He also feels that once you get emotional, you have lost control and have lost the argument.... this is COMPLETELY emotional for me - as I feel it should be.

I posted it so that someone reading might get a better understanding of his mindset and the way he deals with information.
Well, good luck. Keep us updated! I know when you're right there at the moment, things are difficult to recall. I've been researching this subject for 9 years now so how difficult was it for me to just read and type?

If he's really just wanting to "win" the argument, then I'd quit arguing with him. Would you really want your son to learn in years down the line "I guess you were circumcised because your father couldn't stand to lose an argument"?
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#25 of 102 Old 08-31-2006, 12:36 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Oh, believe me.... A&A, this is where I am... I just want to avoid that if I can, we have enough of our other battles and have worked too hard on the marriage to pull it down like that. Plus I am a SAHM and want to continue that aspect of parenting.
But don't get me wrong, if need be, I'll pull that one and not look back... it's been in the back of my mind for MONTHS.

Sad to admit, but I never wanted to have a son... because I knew it would come to this sort of thing with DH. I really wanted all girls. I was proud of myself that I didn't cry at the ultrasound, John was surprised that I didn't. Don't get me wong, I will (and do) love Jack with all that a mother can.
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#26 of 102 Old 08-31-2006, 12:39 AM
 
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At our hospital, I was the parent who would have had to request circ and I very plainly stated to everyone who came into the room that he was not to be circ'd under any circumstances. I demanded it be placed into his medical records and I put a NO CIRC sign on his bassinet for the 10 minutes he ws in it. Several nurses told me that as the mother, it was legally my decision and it could not be done at DH's request, had he dared defy me.

secular classical-ish mama to an incredible 5 year old DS and an amazing 6 year old DD.
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#27 of 102 Old 08-31-2006, 12:39 AM
 
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He also feels that once you get emotional, you have lost control and have lost the argum
People who are not emotional, or show no emotion are scary. That is why they can easily dismiss other people's pain and suffering. A new child does not deserve a birth trauma of this magnitude. The 'he'll never remember it' garbage, doesn't give someone the right to inflict such serious pain on a brand new, trusting life.
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#28 of 102 Old 08-31-2006, 12:45 AM
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It's time to put your foot down. No more arguing, it's your SON'S decision to make, not either of yours. Tell your dh that there will be NO CIRC because it's your son's penis not either of yours.
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#29 of 102 Old 08-31-2006, 12:50 AM
 
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I dont know if it will help, but my BIL's are not cut and they said they have NEVER been made fun of. Any guy looking another guys stuff and commenting on it got made fun of, not the guy he was talking about. Plus, concider that more and more boys are being left intact, so he probably wont be alone.
Also, the one time I heard a boy being made fun of for being intact (in high school), he turned it around and told the other kid that at least his mama loved him enough to not hack off part of his penis. Basically after the argument, the circumcised boy left crying My 6 year old also had someone ask him about his "funny looking penis" and he simply said that his wasnt funny looking, his was normal. I hope he didnt go into more detail, lol-this child knows more about circumcision than most adults do (which sadly isnt saying enough).
I can safely say that if my dh insisted on having my ds circ'd, I would leave him in an instant. I love him, but I dont love anyone more than my children. Fortunatly he is one of those who hates being circumcised himself and it was never an issue....which brings up another point. Sooooo many men are going through restoration, so many are angry about what was taken from them. Your dh may be happy with his penis, but not all men are. While a man who doesnt like being intact (which rarely happens) can get circ'd, a man who doesnt like being circ'd can never truely go back to being intact.
Talk to the lawyer, find out your rights, and protect your baby!!

Cari-mama to Eriq, Lile, Paikea, Kaidyn, and Mieke is here!! 2/9/10
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#30 of 102 Old 08-31-2006, 12:53 AM
 
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Yeah- from reading your dhs response I would just put your foot down and pull rank.

Say something like "This baby is coming out of MY body. I am the one who has watched what I have eaten, drank and have taken care of MY body for HIM. I am not going to allow any normal part of him to be removed. Period."

Know that the law is on your side- seriously contact John and ask for his legal advice on this matter. It sounds very seriouse and you need to know what the law states.
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