Curious about Pro-Circ'ers - Page 3 - Mothering Forums
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#61 of 72 Old 10-18-2006, 10:30 AM
 
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I think I sometimes feel more uncomfortable watching the intactavists argue and disagree amongst themselves (with this topic on how to not offend or not come on to strong when dealing with newbies).

I suppose I would hope that the safeguards we have in place (moderation as well as the PM system by members) would help prevent people from being turned away off to these boards. I don't think that on any message board you are going to have 100% of the people always act in a softer more considerate way...I just think that most people who come here probably do realize that this is a message board and pretty much anyone who registers can post here.

I started here by lurking (long before I had a son). I learned way more than I ever wanted to know (at the time) about circumcision. I did go into my research with an open mind, and I let the information show me the right path (my version of the scientific method). I know plenty of people who check out this board on a regular basis but never post. Does it mean they are afraid to post? Nope, rather that they find the information they need and don't have any other questions to ask.

This board has changed my life and my family's life on many different levels. And, I thank you to all out there who were encouraging and supportive as I worked through all the information I found. I have to say, I can't say that I can completely wrap my brain around the idea that this is still legal in this country. Sigh...

Anyhow, I hope that nobody sugar coats the information. I don't think that is necessary, but sure, as people we do need to be compassionate and empathize and acknowledge the feelings of sadness, shock, pain and regret that some mothers may experience when they come here and are faced with the reality that they may have unknowingly harmed their child. I have done communications seminars, and one thing that you are taught is to emathize and acknowledge that person's feelings as a way to connect with them so that they open up to you and are receptive to your information. And, for men who have themselves been victimized, realizing that they were harmed in such an intimate and horrid way (I've watched my husband go through the emotions surrounding it and the deep sadness that still lingers) we need to be there to support them and I encourage those men who are here do step out and share their stories and say "hey, I KNOW what you're feeling...I've been there."

And, I think on the whole, this group does very well. I never personally hesitate to send people here. I think that this group is one of the few places which doesn't "sugarcoat a message" YET they do speak with the compassion and knowledge needed to help people who are not aware that circumcision harms.

Anyhow, I've probably said nothing other than just reiterate some of the same ideas that other people have had there. I know I've been one whose always used the "when you know better, you do better" phrase. I know that applies to many other aspects of parenting as well...I definitely am a better mother the more experience and knowledge I gain. And, afterall...isn't that why we're all here at mothering?

Love you guys!

Perpetually breastfeeding or pregnant ENFP mom to a lot of kids...wife to a midwestern nice guy...living in tropical paradise...pink cats and homebirths rock!

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#62 of 72 Old 10-18-2006, 10:47 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Houdini View Post
Try putting yourself in the position of the other parent and try to imagine you had circ'd your child, then magnify that by 1000 and you may just start to understand the guilt and pain we go through during this process.
I can hear some of the pain in your words, sending you hugs.

Perpetually breastfeeding or pregnant ENFP mom to a lot of kids...wife to a midwestern nice guy...living in tropical paradise...pink cats and homebirths rock!

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#63 of 72 Old 10-18-2006, 12:55 PM
 
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I guess I've come to see this as a intactivist support/discussion board primarily, because no pro-circumcision setiment or advocacy is allowed. This board is obviously very biased, but I think that's a good thing. There's no other place like it on the net. Sometimes we *need* to preach to the choir, sometimes we *need* encouragement, affirmation, and comradery. It's rough out there.

We're all in different stages of enlightenment and activism. Very often when people first learn the truth about circumcision they get angry, and rightly so. Outrage is a natural reaction. Of course, the instinct is to share this new-found knowledge with everyone you know or have access to via the internet. It's no surprise that sometimes the message comes out in a very blunt, righteous, less-than-gentle way. This approach is usually met with anger and defensiveness, and has a tendency to push people away but the passionate intactivist believes they are just 'telling it like it is'. The truth hurts; circumcision hurts. Deal with it.

We've all been there.

Developing a compassionate, calm, caring, friendly-and most of all, effective-approach takes time, patience, and practice. We're all learning here. Intactivism is a growing community. Fresh perspectives and passionate newbies keep us alive. It's a good thing, but I think those of us that are more seasoned might do the movement good to help mentor these energetic new activists, either individually or through blessedly biased boards like this one.

Jen
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#64 of 72 Old 10-18-2006, 01:16 PM
 
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Houdini,
Thank you. I think I also see that there could be a comparison with doctors & mom's because we know some doctors have circ'ed other ppl kids & circ'ed their kids in past like Milos & fleiss & they are against it but to 'actually know what they 'did could be a long road of feelings because of them 'actually doing or being part of the procedure and dr. fleiss only came aware of 'feeling it is wrong when he was watching the child response to it and it came to a 'connection'.

I do understand my mom circ but I can't call her 'bad' because she thought she was doing good to my brother and she didn't know she had a choice to say no. She had put me through alot of 'medical needed' surgeries for 4 yrs and she thought of circ like a vaccine . I'm for sure she wouldn't have done it if she didn't feel as if it was a medical neccesity.

My aunt(s) did the same thing . My cousin did it to her son and will do it again to her next boy too come in feb. I don't think of her as bad and in my opinion I would never 'show a circ video to those who have did circ that would literally kill them and would have thought i was trying to punish them. I could see of it as an 'education video only to people haven't done it yet but to ppl who did it it would be like throwing what they did in their face even though it's not their son in their.

I can't be able to 'watch a show' when they have a guy going to kill himself even if it's just a t.v show that i like to watch if they 'have a 'close to it or a shown of. Because sucide happened in my 'family' I never witnessed how my three family members killed themselves but as i see one person no matter guy or girl of what age using a gun, drugging or carbon posion in the garage kind of thing that is like me watching my family members killing & dying all over again.
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#65 of 72 Old 10-18-2006, 01:25 PM
 
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Well said, Jen. I remember when I first got into inactivism I was all fury! I would definitely snap at anyone who came at me with a "look like daddy" type reasoning. But now I keep my snapping for those who continually use the excuse and defend it after getting all the facts/knowledge/information. Ok, well, I try to control it then, too, but it's difficult
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#66 of 72 Old 10-18-2006, 02:27 PM
 
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I rarely use the terms 'mutilation' or 'abuse', I just know them to be hot buttons.

I know other's choose to use them because they are impactful.

But I really think that most parents are ignorant and using these words doesn't reach them because they are hurtful and make us put up our defenses (possibly close minded too)..

If you spend some time in a discussion it usually becomes very clear which parents are ignorant and which parents ignored information or circumcised because of cosmetic or sexual reasons.

At that point, it is almost always going to be a lost cause ANYWAYS to reach the parents who are doing so for cosmeti or sexual reasons, so starting off by calling it mutilation, barbary, or abuse is, imo, not very worthwhile.

The best thing about this is that you get the parents to self-identify their reasons... and sometimes the parents that do it for cosmetic reasons dig their own grave, so to speak.

Jessica

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#67 of 72 Old 10-18-2006, 03:01 PM
 
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I'm actually still waiting answer to my question.

So I repeat it.

This is my holy text; http://www.cirp.org/library/statements/finland2003/

This is what I believe. I could never sugarcoat circ as something from Disney. Just like I could not sugarcoat spanking or FGM or anything else.

Is my belief against this board? Against it's UA?

What parts of this text do drive people away from this board?

I understand that I come to this debate from different angle since I come from culture where circumcision is and has always been unknown and listed abuse and violation of human rights.
At the same time I do understand(being married to an American)that most parents who have circumcised their children in the past have done it 'just because', as a part of their culture & because of lies of doctors.

All I feel is tremendous sadness and I cannot imagine how big is the guilt and sorrow for those parents.

Who knows what I have done if I had been an American and learned that circ is the norm.

I also have huge admiration for people who are able to go against the norm, who are asking questions, trying to find the truth in the middle of cultural brainwashing that has gone 100 years.

But I cannot understand people who circumcises after researching the issue. After knowing what circumcision does to a child they still go and do it.

Nope.

No compassion for them.

And nope for also sugar coating the issue. In my book genital cutting of boys and girls is horrible crime.

It is not a sentence that I blurb to people who come to ask questions(been in this debate over 7 years) - why would I? But I surely do not hide it either in the name of political correctness if someone asks directly about it.

This board has always been the most gentle place on the net regards circ. At least during the years I have been around this issue. Go see other boards - just put battle helmet on, it is very rough out there - just like Jen said.

(OT; I've often heard(elsewhere in the net)parent writing; "well, they called it genital cutting, what crazy people, now I will surely circ my son".

If indeed people circ they sons just to 'get back' to unknown people on the net then I do not really think that the said person was serious or ready for any info anyway.)
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#68 of 72 Old 10-18-2006, 03:19 PM
 
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I don't recall anybody ever being attacked for regretting circumcising and wanting to know some answers, but maybe I missed something?
My first son is circumcised and I was never attacked by anyone here. Was it hard to come to this forum after I realized what I had done? YES. Did I inititally feel a bit defensive? YES. But I am still here over 2 years later, as an outspoken intactivist, and with a new intact baby boy. I owe it all to this board. It was not easy at first, but I am glad I stuck around. I don't think we should water down the message one bit, or sugar coat. I do think we should just be aware that moms who circ'ed are initially going to be feeling defensive and we should be sensitive to that, but it doesn't mean we have to compromise the truth. Also, my personal approach is being very direct and a little more harsh with moms who are thinking about circ, and showing compassion and understanding to moms who regret it. But again, showing compassion and understanding does not mean down-playing the brutal truths of circ. I usually remind moms of Marilyn Milos, who is my hero. :

Blessed mama of four
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#69 of 72 Old 10-18-2006, 04:11 PM
 
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Kia,
The position in Finland brings up many interesting questions, I think we cannot discuss them, though, because they relate to religion.

I understand your pov and especially your frustration especially because you have that statement to back you up.

I hope you email a mod directly to get an answer.

I do think that further educating people on your culture's stance on circumcision is appropriate-- and most people would be very surprised to realize that such a strong statement exists.

Perhaps it might even make a few more parents think long and hard before they take a casual approach to circumcision.

Jessica

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#70 of 72 Old 10-18-2006, 05:30 PM
 
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Why can't we be as enlightened as Finland? I think I want to move there...
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#71 of 72 Old 10-18-2006, 06:05 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Mamm2 View Post
Why can't we be as enlightened as Finland?
I was just thinking this after checking out their policy... if only we were that civilised...

love and peace.

mama to two girls and due in November!
: Circumcision can never be undone :
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#72 of 72 Old 10-18-2006, 06:08 PM
 
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I lived in Denmark for a while, and I came to the USA with a sense that scandinavian countries have a far more developed and matured sense of societal consciousness. Everything from their government systems to their healthcare to their schooling to their position against circumcision (and spanking) demonstrates that society and people matter a whole lot more...and not just the "deserving." When I came to the USA, I , for the first time, heard of the idea of the "deserving and the undeserving poor." That really upset me.
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