DP wants to circ DS beforesummer..help! - Mothering Forums
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
#1 of 66 Old 01-09-2007, 01:00 PM - Thread Starter
 
mother_star's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 137
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
My ds1 is 7yrs old and does not retract at all. DP is giving him until summertime to be able to retract or DP will want to get DS1 circ. I've tried talking to him about it, the con's of circ but he still says its not normal for a 7yo not to retract at his age. Dp himself is NOT circ and he knows it's going to be painful and all but it seems like it's not a good enough reason for him to not want it done. I keep telling dp that it is normal for ds1 not to be retractable but he wont listen.

Does anyone know of any french sites opposing circ? Dp is french and only reads a little bit of english, so before getting him to read the english info, I wanted to try get french info to give him to read.

I have until summer time to convience dp otherwise and to leave the decision up to ds1!!

I'm afraid I'll be the only one out of the familly to feel like this and i need the help.:
mother_star is offline  
#2 of 66 Old 01-09-2007, 01:27 PM
 
MCatLvrMom2A&X's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: With Vin Diesel ;) YUMMMM
Posts: 14,886
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I would forbid it. Your son is 100% normal and your dp wanting to do this is wrong. I dont have any french sites Can you show him the stats here there is a poll about it. Most boys are in there teens before they retract.

Why is he so adament your son loose his foreskin??? :

I cant for the life of me figure out how a intact man would want his child to loose this important part :

Puberty is when most boys become retractable anyway when the hormones kick in (some of course sooner than that) If you dont agree to it then he cannot get it done.

And please sit down and talk to your son about how he is normal and not to let what your dp is saying affect his self asteem.

 
SAHMlady.gifread.giflovin' trekkie.giffan intactivist.gifwinner.jpg to loveeyes.gifenergy.gifDD 10/00 & superhero.gifmoon.gifDS 10/04 ribbonpb.gifIf your ds is intact, keep him safe, visit the Case Against Circ forumnocirc.gifCirc, a personal choice, Your sonsyes.gifbrokenheart.gif11/98brokenheart.gif6/99ribbonbrown.gifanti-tobaccoribbonyellow.gifThyroid cancer survivor. With cat.gif& goldfish.gif & (Boxer)dog2.gif wishing 4 whale.gif&ribbonwhite.gifsigncirc1.gifselectivevax.gifdelayedvax.gif

MCatLvrMom2A&X is online now  
#3 of 66 Old 01-09-2007, 01:30 PM
 
alegna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 44,408
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by MCatLvrMoMof2 View Post
I would forbid it.
:
Simply do NOT allow it to happen. Period. You can win him over later. Overpower him for now.

-Angela
alegna is offline  
#4 of 66 Old 01-09-2007, 01:34 PM
 
DreamsInDigital's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 13,481
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
If he's not retractable, they can sometimes loosen the foreskin with a steroid cream rather than major cosmetic surgery. Maybe you can suggest that as an option.
DreamsInDigital is offline  
#5 of 66 Old 01-09-2007, 01:35 PM
 
sophiekat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: revolting with the knitters
Posts: 1,613
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
is your dp ds1's father? (sorry, its not clear from your post). if not, why would he have a say? and why would he be interested in whether ds1 is retractable anyway? is it giving him problems?

Obstruct livery vehicles!

sophiekat is offline  
#6 of 66 Old 01-09-2007, 01:36 PM
 
BamaDude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 399
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Retraction is not like being able to read or ride a bike. It is a natural process which occurs when it occurs, and this varies greatly from individual to individual. Many mothers here have stated that while one of their sons was retracting at age "X", their other son didn't retract until age "Y".

Furthermore, in my opinion it is downright mean for your DP to say "Either retract it by age 7 or we'll cut it off!" to a little boy. I'm sure other members here will have much to add to that opinion.
BamaDude is offline  
#7 of 66 Old 01-09-2007, 01:37 PM
 
MCatLvrMom2A&X's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: With Vin Diesel ;) YUMMMM
Posts: 14,886
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Yes a steroid cream is a option but only if he isnt retractable because of the tip of the foreskin if the foreskin is still attached to the glans the steroid cream wont help. At least that is what I have gotten from past discussions. He is only 7yo he dosnt need help with retracting

Like I mentioed in my pp you should definatly talk to him and let him know there is nothing wrong with his body. Even if he dosnt end up circed : he may have life long body image issues due to all this crap going on around him.

 
SAHMlady.gifread.giflovin' trekkie.giffan intactivist.gifwinner.jpg to loveeyes.gifenergy.gifDD 10/00 & superhero.gifmoon.gifDS 10/04 ribbonpb.gifIf your ds is intact, keep him safe, visit the Case Against Circ forumnocirc.gifCirc, a personal choice, Your sonsyes.gifbrokenheart.gif11/98brokenheart.gif6/99ribbonbrown.gifanti-tobaccoribbonyellow.gifThyroid cancer survivor. With cat.gif& goldfish.gif & (Boxer)dog2.gif wishing 4 whale.gif&ribbonwhite.gifsigncirc1.gifselectivevax.gifdelayedvax.gif

MCatLvrMom2A&X is online now  
#8 of 66 Old 01-09-2007, 01:38 PM
 
LavenderMae's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: where I write my own posts!
Posts: 13,477
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
That is truly undue pressure to be putting on you and your ds1 (personally I would be livid if my dh did the same). Your ds is normal, not all boys retract by 7 or 10 or 12........you get the point. I would also tell your DP NO freakin way. I would not put my son through something so traumatic and irreversable when his body is perfectly normal.

OUR DAUGHTERS ARE PROTECTED SHOULDN'T OUR SONS BE TOO! :
LavenderMae is offline  
#9 of 66 Old 01-09-2007, 01:49 PM
 
moonmama7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 183
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I remember someone posting here before that her husband is French and that in France they do circumcise or force retraction by age 5 or 6. Maybe your husband is coming from this mindset?
moonmama7 is offline  
#10 of 66 Old 01-09-2007, 01:55 PM
 
eepster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: growing in the Garden State ............
Posts: 9,510
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Have you tried talking DP into getting circ'd first to see how it goes. (Not that you actually want him circd, but it help put it into perspective for him.)

Timmy's Mommy WARNINGyslexic typing with help of preschooler, beware of typos
eepster is offline  
#11 of 66 Old 01-09-2007, 02:01 PM
 
DocsNemesis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: I make milk..whats your superpower?
Posts: 3,025
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Yep, I would forbid it, no way in heck would I let that happen. My ds is 6.5 and isnt retractable at all either, but no one is worried. How is your kids doctor? Can you find a doctor (maybe french speaking as well?) that will agree with what we are saying here? Hopefully one that refuses to do the surgery?
I also want to add that my BIL's were not retractable until age 10 and 12, again, not a big deal. Plus it makes it easier-no having to retract to clean until they are older! It really needs to be allowed to happen on its own and is no reason to circ-even in an adult who isnt retractable.

Cari-mama to Eriq, Lile, Paikea, Kaidyn, and Mieke is here!! 2/9/10
DocsNemesis is offline  
#12 of 66 Old 01-09-2007, 02:01 PM
 
My_Three_Sons's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: The Canadian Shield
Posts: 224
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Perhaps it's time to get your dr involved. Try to have your ds's dr talk some sense into your DP about what is normal in terms of retraction. Your dr could also refer your ds to a urologist (you didn't mention if your ds is actually experiencing problems, or your DP is just freaked out by the non-retraction issue). Since your DP is not going to perform the circ. himself, I assume you will need to find a dr to do this, and I firmly believe no dr will perform this surgery just to satisfy a strange whim of your DP's that your ds's foreskin "should" be retracting at 7 yrs of age, particularly with your vehement disapproval of the circ. It's really quite extreme, and requires general anaesthesia, etc. If it's only for cosmetic reasons, healthcare will not pick up the tab and this will cost your DP a LOT of money (surgeon's time, anaesthesiologist, O.R. use, nurses, etc). Hopefully your 7 yr old would be able to speak up for his own wishes as well (what 7 yr old wants surgery on his perfectly normal penis???). I really have to think that if your 7 yr old doesn't desire this and there are no medical issues, you and your DP will be open to a lawsuit when he reaches 18 and realizes what happened, or he could find a litigation guardian to protect his foreskin right now.

My dh is French-Cdn. He doesn't like to think about circumcision (he's intact and gets queasy thinking about circ.), but I could ask him to do a google search if necessary for intactness info.

In the meantime, make sure your DP is not discussing this issue in front of your ds... that's just a mean thing to do.

Tricia

SAHM mom of 3 beautiful boys - Aug/02, Jan/05, Mar/07.
My_Three_Sons is offline  
#13 of 66 Old 01-09-2007, 02:04 PM
Banned
 
Pandora114's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Shamelessly using "devices"
Posts: 7,100
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
The Canadian Pedeatric society's webpage has both French and English stuff on it...

NAK so I can't find a link.

AANYWAY, your DH was probably raised the same way my DH was (Both French Canadian) As in retracted in the nursery by the nurses right after birth and then mother was told to keep retracting to clean...so he never remembers NOT being retractile..

Tell your DH that things have changed, that being non-retractile at 7 isn't such a big deal, that he'll become retractile probaby by the time he starts masturbating regularly...
Pandora114 is offline  
#14 of 66 Old 01-09-2007, 02:11 PM
 
BamaDude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 399
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by eepster View Post
Have you tried talking DP into getting circ'd first to see how it goes. (Not that you actually want him circd, but it help put it into perspective for him.)
:

You might also ask DP the following questions:
*If DS doesn't start puberty by a certain age, will DS be forced to take steroids to speed his development?
*If DS isn't a certain height by a certain age (both arbitrary, of course), will DS be put on a regimen of growth hormones?

I'm sorry, but I grew up with a father who could never understand why I was not exactly like him in every respect and who thought that any differences between us were just hard-headedness on my part, so the original post in this thread has really gotten under my skin.
BamaDude is offline  
#15 of 66 Old 01-09-2007, 02:15 PM
 
raeinparis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: france
Posts: 797
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
http://ame.enfant.org.free.fr/infos.html

ASSOCIATION CONTRE LA MUTILATION DES ENFANTS

if he's french, i think it's weird. penises (and vaginas) are sacred here . ask him about a vasectomy -- oh la la! and one of the rights of women who give birth here is 10 sessions of "perenium retraining" to get the hoohoo back in shape.

bon chance!
raeinparis is offline  
#16 of 66 Old 01-09-2007, 02:18 PM
 
RiverSky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Paradise
Posts: 7,290
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
My 8 year old does not retract and he's perfectly healthy, has never had a problem with his penis and I'm sure he never will.
RiverSky is offline  
#17 of 66 Old 01-09-2007, 02:19 PM
 
dynamohumm6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 2,935
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by raeinparis View Post
http://ame.enfant.org.free.fr/infos.html

ASSOCIATION CONTRE LA MUTILATION DES ENFANTS

if he's french, i think it's weird. penises (and vaginas) are sacred here . ask him about a vasectomy -- oh la la! and one of the rights of women who give birth here is 10 sessions of "perenium retraining" to get the hoohoo back in shape.

bon chance!

I am totally intrigued by this.

To echo other posters, I would just say no way. It isn't uncommon for boys to go til puberty before being able to retract. If he had a daughter that didn't develop breasts before a certain age, would he make her get implants?

I would also have a conversation with your dp about how this issue is going to emotionally effect your ds. He's going to think there's something wrong with his perfectly normal body. 7 is a terrible age to get body image problems going (well, as is any age, but i know my dd has become more sensitive about these things in the last year).
dynamohumm6 is offline  
#18 of 66 Old 01-09-2007, 02:20 PM
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 750
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Motherstar,

The only french language site that I know of is this one, which is based in Montreal and was (maybe stilll is) run by John Antonopoulos. He is a very active intactivist who has done live interviews on TV shows concerning circumcision and foreskin restoration. You should be able to find all the information you need here, however if you need more help, I'm sure John would be happy to assist.

http://www.infocirc.org

Also, for your own peace of mind, and for the facts on when foreskin retraction can take place, please read this:

http://www.cirp.org/library/normal/

By the way, I find your DP's stance on this to be totaly objectionable. Your son's penis has absolutely nothing to do with him, and making threats to you about it is WAY OUT OF LINE.

I hope the above helps, and if I can assist further, please pm me.

I wish you (and your son) the best in this.

Howard.
hakunangovi is offline  
#19 of 66 Old 01-09-2007, 03:55 PM
 
Mommiska's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,596
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
HI there - I'm afraid I don't know any French language websites, but my dh is intact, and he says he couldn't fully retract until his mid to late teens.

And he has NEVER had any problems at all!

Really - a 7 year old who cannot retract is totally normal.
Mommiska is offline  
#20 of 66 Old 01-09-2007, 03:55 PM - Thread Starter
 
mother_star's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 137
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by sophiekat View Post
is your dp ds1's father? (sorry, its not clear from your post). if not, why would he have a say? and why would he be interested in whether ds1 is retractable anyway? is it giving him problems?
Yes, DP is ds1's father. I put dp because we are not married, we're living common law. No, his penis is not giving him any problems at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eepster View Post
Have you tried talking DP into getting circ'd first to see how it goes. (Not that you actually want him circd, but it help put it into perspective for him.)
Actually I've never thought of it but his answer to that would be "mine is retractable, so I don't need it to be done." I suppose I could always say to try it and see how he feels afterward. Maybe it would chage his mind. (not really wanting him to get it done though).


I read in one of the posts about asking dp to get a vasectomy. Already did ask, and he said "NO WAY". I'm the one who had to go!

Thanks for all the info and hopefully I can change dp's mind and leave the choice to ds1. If ds1 wants it done when he's older it will be up to him. Thats how I feel about it. I don't want to submit him to any unnecessary surgery.




Howard Smith: Thanks for the link, I printed out some info from there and hopefully it will convince dp to change his mind.
mother_star is offline  
#21 of 66 Old 01-09-2007, 04:36 PM
 
MCatLvrMom2A&X's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: With Vin Diesel ;) YUMMMM
Posts: 14,886
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Oh I just thought of something ask him to walk around with his foreskin retracted all day. I have heard to a intact man the very idea makes them feel ill. That is what kind of pain he wants to inflict on your ds.

 
SAHMlady.gifread.giflovin' trekkie.giffan intactivist.gifwinner.jpg to loveeyes.gifenergy.gifDD 10/00 & superhero.gifmoon.gifDS 10/04 ribbonpb.gifIf your ds is intact, keep him safe, visit the Case Against Circ forumnocirc.gifCirc, a personal choice, Your sonsyes.gifbrokenheart.gif11/98brokenheart.gif6/99ribbonbrown.gifanti-tobaccoribbonyellow.gifThyroid cancer survivor. With cat.gif& goldfish.gif & (Boxer)dog2.gif wishing 4 whale.gif&ribbonwhite.gifsigncirc1.gifselectivevax.gifdelayedvax.gif

MCatLvrMom2A&X is online now  
#22 of 66 Old 01-09-2007, 04:44 PM
 
myfairbabies's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,525
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I don't know if he would care, but this is a poll on here about when sons retracted http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=531522

I would just not allow it to happen, period. The same if my dh wanted to sexually assault my dd, it would be over my dead body

Mama to my little social butterfly 6/13/09

myfairbabies is offline  
#23 of 66 Old 01-09-2007, 04:55 PM
 
Nathan1097's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Senior-Title-Less!
Posts: 3,579
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
My intact partner just told me this weekend that he wasn't completely retradtable until he was 12. He remembers manually retracting himself within minutes. Plus, my 9 year old is not completely retractable yet.
Nathan1097 is offline  
#24 of 66 Old 01-09-2007, 05:16 PM
 
Mama8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: UT
Posts: 509
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I would aslo forbid it. It's not his call to say when ds retracts. Tell him to mind his own penis and quite obsessing about ds.: Really I would fight tooth and nail over this.
Mama8 is offline  
#25 of 66 Old 01-09-2007, 09:48 PM
A&A
 
A&A's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 16,853
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Retraction can take up until puberty, and sometimes even beyond that. PROTECT YOUR SON!!!!!!

"Our task is not to see the future, but to enable it."
A&A is offline  
#26 of 66 Old 01-09-2007, 11:25 PM
 
emmsmama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 159
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I don't understand why you have to convince dh not to circ, you just say no. If he rants and raves and jumps and down and throws a tantrum then let him. If your son's penis is causing him no problems and your dp wants your son circ'd because of some arbitrary age he has set in his head that your son should be retractable by then just say no.

When dh said he wanted ds circ'd and I said I didn't I showed him the info but I made it very clear that although I wanted him to agree with me that there is still no way I would allow it to happen even if dh didn't agree with me. Most decisions we make together, but that was one decision I was putting my foot down on. Thankfully dh agreed with me after a couple of weeks of mulling it over so we didn't argue much over it after all, but no way no how was it happening regardless.

I also would not go to a urologist or doc for an assessment as a pp suggested only because there are some that are "cut-happy" in that they will recommend circ at the slightest redness at the tip of a penis and if a doc ends up saying do it then that will only add fuel to your dh's fire.
emmsmama is offline  
#27 of 66 Old 01-10-2007, 03:06 AM
 
Gendenwitha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Olympia WA
Posts: 1,449
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
10yo & 8yo here not retracting yet & 10yo is showing signs of puberty.
Gendenwitha is offline  
#28 of 66 Old 01-10-2007, 10:44 AM
 
Mommiska's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,596
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I agree with putting your foot down, but can understand wanting your partner to 'get this' and agree with you.

Just a thought - have you considered having him get in touch with Dr. Paul Fleiss with this question? He's a pediatrician in California (I'm pretty sure someone could find his e-mail address for you), and he's happy to answer questions about the foreskin. He could reassure your partner that your son is 100% normal.
Mommiska is offline  
#29 of 66 Old 01-10-2007, 01:47 PM
 
13Sandals's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: north of NY
Posts: 1,624
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
don't leave it up for discussion. Can you find a truly friendly intact pediatrician that would back you up? My son's foreskin did not retract until he was 8. there isn't anything wrong with your son!!
13Sandals is offline  
#30 of 66 Old 01-10-2007, 04:29 PM - Thread Starter
 
mother_star's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 137
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by MCatLvrMoMof2 View Post
Oh I just thought of something ask him to walk around with his foreskin retracted all day. I have heard to a intact man the very idea makes them feel ill. That is what kind of pain he wants to inflict on your ds.
I will honestly ask him to do that the next time he brings up the idea of circ ds. I will ask him to do it for a day then tell me how it feels. Good idea, thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mommiska View Post

Just a thought - have you considered having him get in touch with Dr. Paul Fleiss with this question? He's a pediatrician in California (I'm pretty sure someone could find his e-mail address for you), and he's happy to answer questions about the foreskin. He could reassure your partner that your son is 100% normal.
No can't say I have. I never heard of him, but I don't know if it would be a good idea though whereas my dp will just say there are lots of doctors around here to go see.
But I am open to get his e-mail, maybe I can e-mail him for some info. Anyone have it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 13Sandals View Post
don't leave it up for discussion. Can you find a truly friendly intact pediatrician that would back you up? My son's foreskin did not retract until he was 8. there isn't anything wrong with your son!!
I don't know if I can or not, we are not living here that long and I don't know any of the doctors here. I'm going to try though. Thats all I need a doctor who says we should circ, then I'd have a harder time convinceing(sp?) him. Ahhrrrrgggg!! Why does circ even excist??:
mother_star is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Mothering Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off