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#1 of 58 Old 01-24-2007, 10:49 PM - Thread Starter
 
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...that MDC simply should not allow pro-circ people to join the board? (I'm excluding religious circ so this doesn't become a huge fight.)

It makes me so sick and sad to see people come here and advocate circumcision for any number of pathetic reasons - b/c the kid got a UTI, or b/c it didn't hurt them anyway, or whatever crap they spout. What they just don't understand is there is no reason we should cut off parts of babies' bodies just b/c they are born male.

I want to freak out on these people and jump through the screen and shake them! This was a safe place for us and now it seems it isn't. I'm tired of coming across pro-circ people hiding on other areas of the forums, or even coming here to reeducate us. Just go to babycenter and leave us alone.

/rant over

DS1 2004 ~ DS2 2005 ~ DD1 2008 ~ DS3 2010 ~ DD2 due Dec. 2014
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#2 of 58 Old 01-24-2007, 10:56 PM
 
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yeah, I always find it weird when people come to CAC and with their very first post at MDC they choose to rant about all the 'the problems' they are having with their intact child. I chalk them up to pro-circ-us people using dirty smear tactics.
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#3 of 58 Old 01-24-2007, 11:10 PM
 
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I don't know, in a sick way is it nice to be able to say what we are really feeling towards them. Catharis in a way. I can't see what I truly think of circumcision and those who choose it for their sons (when they are fully aware of the facts) on more mainstream boards. But I can here. It makes me feel a little better in a sick way.
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#4 of 58 Old 01-24-2007, 11:27 PM
 
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I can't believe how many people I've seen in the last year or so openly saying they thinking circing was a good choice. I don't remember people posting that kind of crap when ds2 was a baby. Or maybe I just wasn't as rabid about anti-circ as I am now... Nope. I always was.
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#5 of 58 Old 01-24-2007, 11:36 PM
 
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No, I don't. Look at how many mamas circumcised one (or more) sons, then came on here and learned the truth about circ? If we didn't allow pro-circers on MDC, they may never learn and grow and become anti-circ, as so many have.

Don't get me wrong -- I want to reach through the computer and smack those posters just as much as the rest of you. I just think that we will be able to get through to some of them, and save some baby boys in the process.

Oh, and what Getz said.
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#6 of 58 Old 01-24-2007, 11:38 PM
 
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I think the mods do a good job of patroling the circ advocacy. So many people are pro-circ or on the fence when they get here and eventually convert to anti-circ. Limiting who can join would be limiting the amount of people who can truly get involved in the community and see what circ is really about. Sure, people can come to the board and lurk if they want info, but a lot of people find mdc, join, and THEN find out about circ.

I think as long as the mods keep doing a good job, we'll just have to keep dealing with problems as they arise.

It's really hard for pro-circ people who are really enjoying being members of this community (not trolling) to not notice the passion we have. They will eventually get it. And if they don't, well, at least we don't have to put up with it.
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#7 of 58 Old 01-24-2007, 11:56 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Galatea View Post
...that MDC simply should not allow pro-circ people to join the board? (I'm excluding religious circ so this doesn't become a huge fight.)
No. MDC is more than just anti-circ. People can come here to learn about and get support for many things: breastfeeding, lactivism, home birth, informed birth choices, gentle discipline, etc. - some things that I, personally, find as important as circumcision. I know others don't agree with that statement - not trying to argue - just stating my opinion. Anyway, even if someone came here pro-circ - that doesn't guarantee that they won't learn something and change their opinion. Education is the key!!!
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#8 of 58 Old 01-24-2007, 11:57 PM
 
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Okay, now that I've read your post again, I'm wondering if you mean just the CAC board - still I say no. Again, because we have the opportunity to educate people.
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#9 of 58 Old 01-25-2007, 12:59 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Galatea
It makes me so sick and sad to see people come here and advocate circumcision for any number of pathetic reasons - b/c the kid got a UTI, or b/c it didn't hurt them anyway, or whatever crap they spout. What they just don't understand is there is no reason we should cut off parts of babies' bodies just b/c they are born male.
Word.

The arrogance spouted off is truely astounding really.
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#10 of 58 Old 01-25-2007, 02:19 AM
 
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I like when I see someone new on here questioning us and our beliefs: . I agree that it is important for people to find us and get educated. When they ask questions and start a "debate" I like to think that it means that they are thinking things through. I don't want people to just accept what we are saying at face value. I want them to think about it, let it settle, ask some questions and then see the truth. If they just believed us right away they may also be easily swayed in the other direction.
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#11 of 58 Old 01-25-2007, 05:04 AM
 
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I don't think you have to be anti-circ to join MDC. But I have no issue for pro-circ (non-religous) comments being banned from MDC entirely, and most definitely advocacy for circ. Maybe if a newbie gets a warnign for a pro comment it'll make them wonder why mdc is against it, kwim? Plus then we don't have to listen to that garbage!

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#12 of 58 Old 01-25-2007, 07:13 AM
 
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I can't believe how many people I've seen in the last year or so openly saying they thinking circing was a good choice. I don't remember people posting that kind of crap when ds2 was a baby.
Your observation is right. The board is targeted.This is the one board The Other Side cannot come openly to debate and it makes them cranky since MDC is such a popular place.

No amount of education will turn them against circumcision. Ofcourse some of the new posters are actual moms but not all.

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#13 of 58 Old 01-25-2007, 07:22 AM
 
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If only anti-circ people could post on the CAC forum, how would anybody learn? What good would it do to only "preach to the choir"?

Ruth, single mommy to Leah, 19, Hannah, 18, and Jack, 12
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#14 of 58 Old 01-25-2007, 07:24 AM
 
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Originally Posted by ColoradoMama View Post
People can come here to learn about and get support for many things: breastfeeding, lactivism, home birth, informed birth choices, gentle discipline, etc. - some things that I, personally, find as important as circumcision.
As long as you consider the same to be true of similar severities of female circumcision, I have no gripe with that opinion.

Honestly, when it comes right down to it, circumcision isn't exactly the worst thing that could have happened to me. Hell, I could have lost my entire penis and I imagine I'd still be perfectly capable of leading a worthwhile, fulfilling, loving life. My penis isn't exactly the most important part of my body. I would much sooner give that up than my hands, legs, or any other of a multitude of body parts that I hold dear.

So I can agree with that on some level. There are worse things that can happen to a person than losing part or all of his/her genitals.

But still, it's a terrible thing to do to someone (not that I have to say that, here).
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#15 of 58 Old 01-25-2007, 09:12 AM
 
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I agree with Telle Bear and Ruthla. How else will people learn?

You have to remember that some people live in a place where circumcision is so routine and so accepted that it doesn't even occur to them not to cut their sons. So, when they come to MDC for the first time and see how anti-circumcision we are, their first thought is probably, "Are they nuts?!?" We are here to educate people who have never heard that circumcision is unnecessary and harmful.

Galatea, I know how you feel, though. I want to reach through the computer and shake them, too!
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#16 of 58 Old 01-25-2007, 10:09 AM
 
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Question about circumcision for religious reasons:
Are we not supposed to speak against that on MDC?

Living the Joyful life as a mama of three beautiful children who are just right the way they are.

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#17 of 58 Old 01-25-2007, 10:14 AM
 
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Question about circumcision for religious reasons:
Are we not supposed to speak against that on MDC?
Nope
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#18 of 58 Old 01-25-2007, 10:19 AM
 
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Question about circumcision for religious reasons:
Are we not supposed to speak against that on MDC?
Nope, in fact, if you want to get a thread pulled, the quickest way of doing it is to mention religion. .
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#19 of 58 Old 01-25-2007, 11:11 AM
 
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Originally Posted by mommyswenn View Post
No, I don't. Look at how many mamas circumcised one (or more) sons, then came on here and learned the truth about circ? If we didn't allow pro-circers on MDC, they may never learn and grow and become anti-circ, as so many have.

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#20 of 58 Old 01-25-2007, 11:14 AM
 
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As long as you consider the same to be true of similar severities of female circumcision, I have no gripe with that opinion.
I'm not exactly sure what you meant by that comment. I think both female and male circumcision are vile forms of child sexual abuse. Could you explain that sentence please?
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#21 of 58 Old 01-25-2007, 11:28 AM
 
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Question about circumcision for religious reasons:
Are we not supposed to speak against that on MDC?
I believe it's a little more nuanced than that.

CAC is not to host discussions of religious circ, pro or anti. Discussions of the ways religious circ are conducted (i.e. the pure mechanics) are often OK as long as there aren't any value judgments attached.

Religious circ is discussed in Religious Studies, where both pro and anti statements are allowed, as long as they are respectfully phrased. If you look through the Religious Studies forum, you'll see many threads on religious circ.

As to the OP -- I agree with the PP, CAC is a great place for newbies to learn about circ. I don't think we can underestimate the cultural forces that blind people to the reality of circumcision's heinousness. Heck, up until 5 years ago, I was one of those people, and in my life experience I had good reason (or so I thought) for thinking like I did.

It's like living in the Matrix -- the reality is so convincing that you don't even know there's an alternative. Unless someone or something comes along and offers you the reality pill, how are you to know any better? Yes, the Internet is a powerful force for good but if you don't know what you don't know, how are you to know what to research?

And even if you do think to research, look at all the crap that's out there. Go to the doctors, ask them -- they'll almost all tell you that circ is good (or at least that it's the parent's choice.) How many doctors and nurses will tell you that circ is unnecessary, painful, and harmful? Almost none, even out of the ones that admit it's unnecessary. Heck, there are even midwives that do circs or take the "parental choice" party line.

Go to the media -- what are you going to find? That circ prevents HIV and STDs. Look at all the mainstream parenting magazines, trumpeting the "large studies" demonstrating those "facts." Are you ever going to see the other side represented, people discussing the flaws in these studies or the functions of the foreskin? Not in the mainstream media. Maybe the alternative papers.

Go to the bookstore and check out the parenting books. Not even Dr. Sears takes a firm anti-circ stance -- go look at the Baby Book, one of the bibles of the AP world. Everything is all "pros and cons," "it's your choice as the parents."

Go to your families and friends -- unless they're intact or from an intact culture, you know what you're going to hear. You've already heard it.

Margaret Mead, the anthropologist, once said something to the effect that if a fish were an anthropologist, the last thing it would discover would be water. Circumcision is still the air that we breathe in this culture, so ubiquitous that most don't think to question it, and it's had a powerful hold on us for more than a hundred years. Many of us have seen the light, but there are still many who haven't.

Even if there are trolls who come to the boards (and I actually don't think it happens that often, but it does happen) we still have to maintain a respectful tone or if we realize that they're trolls, report it to the mods and not engage in troll-baiting. Just because people don't change their minds immediately in an hour when bombarded with thirty-eight posts filled with links doesn't mean they're trolls. People need time -- and gentle treatment -- to recognize that everything they've grown up believing, maybe even everything they've researched, is wrong.

I share your anger about people who are given the information, in a gentle and respectful manner, and discuss it, and choose to circ anyway. I know that anger and pain from hard personal experience. So I get the anger. I just don't think it's constructive to try to make rules about who can post here and when they get kicked out and when we all jump down their throats, because, with gentle and respectful treatment a) they might change their minds and b) all the lurkers who don't post but are here to learn might change their minds.

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#22 of 58 Old 01-25-2007, 11:28 AM
 
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Your observation is right. The board is targeted.This is the one board The Other Side cannot come openly to debate and it makes them cranky since MDC is such a popular place.

No amount of education will turn them against circumcision. Ofcourse some of the new posters are actual moms but not all.

Waving then Hi, know you are watching.

Oh and almost forgot. Have A Nice Day.
I'm not talking about just the CAC forum, I'm talking about the entire site. THe due date clubs, Life with a babe, LACTIVISM, etc.

I don't think people who are pro-circ should be banned, how else would they learn? but I don't think they should be allowed to say they still think it was a good choice to do it to their boys and how much better it LOOKS, etc, when they are members with thousands of posts in their post counts. blech!
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#23 of 58 Old 01-25-2007, 12:26 PM
 
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I don't see anyone suggesting that newbies can't come and ask questions.

How will anyone learn? Read. There's no shortage of information here for anyone who is seeking it. If there's confusion? Ask. There's no shortage of knowledgable helpful posters here.


It's a different monster to spout off that one is jsut trying to infuse a conversation with "fact" by stating that the foreskin has evolved out of a useful function - just like to tonsils have - and then try to throw around a dubious claim of scientific credential to close down further discussion.

That kind of arrogance is not aimed at learning - or IMO even educating, despite the assertion as such - but inciting. (And did they get their "info" 100 years ago?!? )

I'm always interested, BTW, how those who claim the foreskin, tonsils, and appendix have no current function plan to set about proving their negative??
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#24 of 58 Old 01-25-2007, 12:27 PM
 
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They should have to be as hush-hush as secret spankers, at the very least (I wasn't even allowed a joke-comment in my sig about spanking consenting adults in play- in retrospect I'm fine with that, just so everyone knows I'm not commenting on mod actions - but the point is, not even a HINT that spanking is promoted here is allowed. And I agree with that decision. Even links to blogs in sigs, that promote spanking, are removed).

Any comment on circ that does not have 'regretful' in the title, imho, oughn't be allowed. If you circ, brag it up elsewhere, like the spankers have to. They are just as adamant in their beliefs, & I don't think it is the place of a messageboard to decide which cruel child-rearing practice is valid and worthy and gets the stamp of approval, and which is not.

(Could this be please be moved to Comments & Suggestions? It's an important thread, & I don't think it needs to die- longtime contributers to CAC deserve to be heard.)
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#25 of 58 Old 01-25-2007, 12:28 PM
 
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Word.

The arrogance spouted off is truely astounding really.

I agree. I find the original posting rude.

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#26 of 58 Old 01-25-2007, 12:36 PM
 
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I agree. I find the original posting rude.
That's not what I said. But I think you know that you aren't agreeing with me.

Quoting my post like that feels a bit snarky to me.
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#27 of 58 Old 01-25-2007, 01:00 PM
 
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I don't think there should be any "rules", as such, about who can and who cannot post. I think the community here does a spectacular job letting people know which way the wind blows, and such discussions are extreemely worthwhile, especially if done in a polite manner.

In a circumcision debate forum, I believe the greatest tool we have is people on the other side who come off sounding like kooks. They provide endless opportunities to present accurate, factual information.

I always try to keep in mind that for every one person who posts to boards like this, there are probably 5 lurkers, and THOSE are the people that can usually benefit most from the information we provide.

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#28 of 58 Old 01-25-2007, 01:19 PM
 
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Remember, this is not a debate forum.
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#29 of 58 Old 01-25-2007, 01:21 PM
 
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Just because people don't change their minds immediately in an hour when bombarded with thirty-eight posts filled with links doesn't mean they're trolls. People need time -- and gentle treatment -- to recognize that everything they've grown up believing, maybe even everything they've researched, is wrong.
well put! gentle, respectful, honest discussion is what's going to help change peoples' minds, and help change the cultural attitude towards circ. i know when someone bombards me and is in my face about something it just turns me off... no matter what it is they're talking about. i could 100% agree with them, and suddenly it makes me think maybe i shouldn't. i saw a Seinfeld repeat the other night (no. not that one) where Elaine was saying "I'm trying to get a tiny little squirrel to come over to me here. I don't want to make any big sudden movements or i might frighten it away" - or something along those lines. To me, that's it exactly. Someone tip-toes in here and genuinely doesn't get it, and then BAM everyone's waving and screaming at them and they just turn their tail and run the other way. i think a lot of people might never come to MDC in the first place if it were banned- and whether or not they change their minds about circ (or openly admit that they've changed their minds) there is still an awful lot they can learn here that can help them be better parents to their kids and that's important too. at least, i personally think it is.
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#30 of 58 Old 01-25-2007, 01:59 PM
 
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No, because if they did, I wouldn't have been able to join and then I wouldn't have learned the truth about circumcision and have become an intactivist. It makes me sick to see people promoting it, too, especially newcomers, but they need the chance to be educated.

fambedsingle2.gif Heather, 25, single mom to Corbin, 5, and Orin, 3  uc.jpg  delayedvax.gif  nocirc.gif
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