"Myth: Uncircumcised Men Enjoy Sex More" - Mothering Forums
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#1 of 48 Old 02-04-2007, 12:34 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Myth: Uncircumcised Men Enjoy Sex More

This is apparently an ongoing show that addresses myths. I made it through about 8 1/2 minutes before I got sick of hearing this woman talk and shut it off. She talked a lot about how many people are circ'd, things to consider when deciding to circ, and the fact that even when circ was almost universal in the US, there was no research to back it up. It was fairly neutral. She then discussed a study of the sexual responses of both intact and circ'd men and how it showed no difference in the two.

What do you all think of this? Have you all heard of this study?

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#2 of 48 Old 02-04-2007, 01:03 AM
 
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Did she mention how great most circ'd women think the sex is, too?
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#3 of 48 Old 02-04-2007, 01:13 AM
 
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Blah, Blah, Blah... she was not fun to watch! so, i could not make it through the whole thing but, she never really touch on the point "Myth: Uncircumcised Men Enjoy Sex More" ans much as she did HPV. so i really cant add much. however, all i can say is i wish DH was not circ'ed.

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#4 of 48 Old 02-04-2007, 01:58 AM
 
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Maybe someone should cut off HER most sensitive bits and see if SHE still enjoys sex as much...

love and peace.

mama to two girls and due in November!
: Circumcision can never be undone :
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#5 of 48 Old 02-04-2007, 02:58 AM
 
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I find it hard to believe any data about sexual pleasure comparisons especially between men circumcised at birth and intact men. I don't think there is a way to quantify sexual pleasure anyway.
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#6 of 48 Old 02-04-2007, 03:21 AM
 
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I find it hard to believe any data about sexual pleasure comparisons especially between men circumcised at birth and intact men. I don't think there is a way to quantify sexual pleasure anyway.
Sure there is. More nerves, more sensitivity. Less nerves, less sensitivity. Keratinized skin, less sensitivity. Mucus membrane, more sensitivity.

It's not rocket science.
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#7 of 48 Old 02-04-2007, 03:44 AM
 
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Yeah, I really don't understand how people can think that having half your nerve endings cut off would NOT affect your sexual experience. I mean, circed or not, most men find sex to be a "10" on the scale of pleasurable experiences, but a cut man is obviously going to have a much narrower range of sensation than his intact brethren.

Whatever, though.
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#8 of 48 Old 02-04-2007, 03:49 AM
 
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Men who have been circ'd in adulthood frequently say they lost sensation. I don't even understand how this could be argued without consulting some of them.
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#9 of 48 Old 02-04-2007, 03:58 AM
 
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if you do a pubmed.com search you can find the articles she is probably talking about. They show 60% of those circed after they had sex (older men for some medical reason) had "improved" satisfaction. But I am with the previous poster: how do you measure satisfaction. Also circ has been used to treat premature ejaculation and that, to me, means they must be more sensitive.
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#10 of 48 Old 02-04-2007, 04:24 AM
 
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if you do a pubmed.com search you can find the articles she is probably talking about. They show 60% of those circed after they had sex (older men for some medical reason) had "improved" satisfaction.
What are they gonna say, they hated it & want to go back? They have rather a large emotional investment in wanting it to be a positive thing!
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#11 of 48 Old 02-04-2007, 04:37 AM
 
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This is impossible to test.

Men who have been circumcised at birth have no idea what normal sex is. How could they compare?

Men who have circumcised as adults do not suffer the effects of infant circumcision. Adult circ is less invasive, more accurate and most of all the exposed glans is 'fresh', not so much keratinization.

How ridiculous and stupid thing as a whole.

Someone should tell to this idiot that she should go and do the same thing in Africa - obviously she does not know that most circumcised women in Africa claim to enjoy sex a lot.
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#12 of 48 Old 02-04-2007, 06:13 AM
 
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Originally Posted by TigerTail View Post
Sure there is. More nerves, more sensitivity. Less nerves, less sensitivity. Keratinized skin, less sensitivity. Mucus membrane, more sensitivity.

It's not rocket science.
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#13 of 48 Old 02-04-2007, 09:41 AM
 
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Adult circumcision outcomes study: effect on erectile function, penile sensitivity, sexual activity and satisfaction.
"Of the men 50% reported benefits and 38% reported harm. Overall, 62% of men were satisfied with having been circumcised."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...453&query_hl=3
(my emphasis)


Penile sensitivity and sexual satisfaction after circumcision: are we informing men correctly?
"Overall satisfaction was 61%. CONCLUSIONS: Penile sensitivity had variable outcomes after circumcision. The poor outcome of circumcision considered by overall satisfaction rates suggests that when we circumcise men, these outcome data should be discussed during the informed consent process."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...710&query_hl=3


"Erectile function evaluation after adult circumcision]
[Article in Chinese]
Shen Z, Chen S, Zhu C, Wan Q, Chen Z.
Department of Urology, First Affiliated Hospital, School of Medicine, Zhejiang University, Hangzhou, Zhejiang 310003, China. shenzhj@mail.hz.zj.cn
OBJECTIVE: To evaluate the erectile function of adults after circumcision. METHODS: Ninty-five patients were investigated on erectile function by questionnaire before and after circumcision, respectively. RESULTS: Eighteen patients suffered from mild erectile dysfunction before circumcision, and 28 suffered from mild or moderate erectile dysfunction after circumcision(P = 0.001). Adult circumcision appeared to have resulted in weakened erectile confidence in 33 cases(P = 0.04), difficult insertion in 41 cases(P = 0.03), prolonged intercourse in 31 cases(P = 0.04) and improved satisfaction in 34 cases(P = 0.04). CONCLUSIONS: Adult circumcision has certain effect on erectile function, to which more importance should be attached."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...200&query_hl=3

************************************************** *********
http://mgmbill.org/kim-pangstudy.pdf
http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi...umcision%22%29

DaiSik Kim, Myung-Geol Pang
The effect of male circumcision on sexuality
BJU International (OnlineEarly Articles).
28 Nov 2006

"OBJECTIVE
To prospectively study, using a questionnaire, the sexuality of men circumcised as adults compared to uncircumcised men, and to compare their sex lives before and after circumcision.

SUBJECTS AND METHODS
The study included 373 sexually active men, of whom 255 were circumcised and 118 were not. Of the 255 circumcised men, 138 had been sexually active before circumcision, and all were circumcised at >20 years of age. As the Brief Male Sexual Function Inventory does not specifically address the quality of sex life, questions were added to compare sexual and masturbatory pleasure before and after circumcision.

RESULTS
There were no significant differences in sexual drive, erection, ejaculation, and ejaculation latency time between circumcised and uncircumcised men. Masturbatory pleasure decreased after circumcision in 48% of the respondents, while 8% reported increased pleasure. Masturbatory difficulty increased after circumcision in 63% of the respondents but was easier in 37%. About 6% answered that their sex lives improved, while 20% reported a worse sex life after circumcision.

CONCLUSION
There was a decrease in masturbatory pleasure and sexual enjoyment after circumcision, indicating that adult circumcision adversely affects sexual function in many men, possibly because of complications of the surgery and a loss of nerve endings.
"
(my emphasis)


Unfortunately they do not seem to have asked their partners how things changed for them, after their men were altered. They also do not say how long after circumcision the study was done - had they had time to become keratinised for instance? Anyway, all the studies done so far point, at the very least, to a highly significant minority (nearly half) suffering adverse effects from the operation. Why do people still persist in saying that an operation designed to reduce sexual pleasure and prevent masturbation doesn't have any effect?
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#14 of 48 Old 02-04-2007, 10:18 AM
 
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Why do people still persist in saying that an operation designed to reduce sexual pleasure and prevent masturbation doesn't have any effect?
This is exactly it. This was a surgery designed to lessen sexual sensitivity. Circumcision got it's big start in the US as a way to make sexual acts involving the penis LESS ENJOYABLE. To try to prove that it isn't the case later, when it's the social norm, to try to keep folks from feeling guilty about it-- well, that's just absurd.
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#15 of 48 Old 02-04-2007, 11:49 AM - Thread Starter
 
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[b]CONCLUSION
There was a decrease in masturbatory pleasure and sexual enjoyment after circumcision, indicating that adult circumcision adversely affects sexual function in many men, possibly because of complications of the surgery and a loss of nerve endings.
This bears repeating!

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#16 of 48 Old 02-04-2007, 12:59 PM
 
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It seems to me that if an adult had to be circed (let's say, due to gangrene) that sex would be a lot more pleasurable after that. Having sex with frostbite, gangrene, or cancer of the foreskin sounds mighty uncomfortable to me, but what do I know.
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#17 of 48 Old 02-04-2007, 02:08 PM
 
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This is why the South Korean study is the most valid of the lot, in South Korea adult men get circumcised because it seems to be the fashionable thing to do, not because of any medical indication.

The other studies were on men who had medically indicated circumcisions - and you would expect them to be very happy that whatever problem they'd had, had gone away. Clearly that isn't the case either if there is only a 60% satisfaction rating - and 38% reporting actual harm despite the fact that they were getting the circ as a medical necessity!

It was interesting that the baby cutters were all for quoting those stats until someone pointed out that 40% of the men, ie nearly half of them were not satisfied, not a very good statistic really for a supposed "cure". They tended to shut up about it after that.
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#18 of 48 Old 02-04-2007, 02:35 PM
 
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TigerTail and others, you misunderstand me.

I am saying I don't believe any STUDIES which attempt to compare, especially any studies involving men circumcised at birth.

Any such study has to be complicated by these factors:
What is the belief of the ones conducting the test?
How is a man to know what he is missing if he never had it?
How is one to quantify a sexual experience?

I believe that there is a difference.

I have had some damage in my adult life which affects my sexual experience. If I even consider a study which compares adult experiences before and after an alteration and contemplate my response in such a study, would I say I do not find sexual satisfaction? No. It is what it is and it is different. Worse? Well, because I CAN compare adult experiences, I will say that I miss certain aspects, but worse? No. I also experience some sensations I never did before. If what I experience now is all that I knew, I could not, would not say that I had any diminished sexual pleasure whatsoever. And I did not choose to be altered. How much more complicating if I were an adult who chose to be altered.
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#19 of 48 Old 02-04-2007, 03:05 PM
 
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I do believe that many if not all of these "studies" are time sensitive ... that is, they are conducted within a year of the surgical removal of an adult male's foreskin. This does not take into account the gradual and increasing diminution in the sensitivity of mucosal tissue after being constantly exposed to excessive drying and chafing.

Neither do any of these studies take into account the dynamic nature of the intact penis during sexual intercourse. Rather, most of these studies focus on the glans, only, as though the foreskin were only a useless strip of skin. Seldom do these studies mention the almost universal need of the circumcised for artifical lubrication, during masturbation and intercourse, or the effects of these sticky, chemical substances upon vaginal tissue.

Finally, individual reports of increased/decreased satisfaction after surgical foreskin removal rarely take into account the subjective attitude of the individual to their own erotic self-image, as it relates to their genitilia. Circumsexuals confirm, almost unanimously, that circumcision improves their sex lives, but then it is primarily circumcision, itself, which fascinates them, unless their obsession may also reside in an all consuming erotic focus on the "cosmetic" appearance of the permanently exposed glans.

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#20 of 48 Old 02-04-2007, 05:32 PM
 
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Let's not forget that there are enough 'circed in adulthood' men that love to frequent parenting boards to tell people just how much they LOVE being circumcised and just how much it has improved their sex lives.

They may be in the minority, but they exist and unfortunatly, make enough noise when they want to. Especially when they can point to a few studies.

Even in the studies that I have seen, there is a wide range of responses-- just as some men say that they like circumcised sex better, some men do not. And there are other studies that show that sex with a foreskin is better.

I usually find on debate boards sooo much information is supplied that people tend to get turned off by both sides-- but that means that if they are already leaning towards circumcision, they probably don't totally discount that information. )-:

And let's enter another possibility-- that SOME men in America who have been prematurely retracted and otherwise poorly treated by the medical community may indeed have a 'troublesome' foreskin and appreciate its removal. THESE men have every right to want to tell the world, but unfortunatly they have directed their energy in the wrong way-- instead of at the doctors and culture that caused the problem or mistreatment in the first place, they are celebrating the final fix- amputation.

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#21 of 48 Old 02-04-2007, 09:39 PM
 
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My boyfriend does not believe that his sexuality was damaged due to being circ'd,,,he feels amazing amounts of pleasure and sensitivity so I'm not sure I would personally agree that it harms a man sexual pleasure.

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#22 of 48 Old 02-04-2007, 09:41 PM
 
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Really? How long ago was he circ'd? He's comparing it to... what?

If you plucked my eyelid off I'd probably say my eyeball was still sensitive, esp if I had nada to compare it to.
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#23 of 48 Old 02-04-2007, 10:03 PM
 
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My boyfriend does not believe that his sexuality was damaged due to being circ'd,,,he feels amazing amounts of pleasure and sensitivity so I'm not sure I would personally agree that it harms a man sexual pleasure.
Yeah, I saw an angry post by someone on another board say exactly the same thing, he compared it to his colourblindness, and said that he enjoyed his view of the world just the same as everyone else does.

It's just a pity that his view of the world is not as rich in colours as the world that everyone with normal sight sees, isn't it? He will never know the difference, but try as he might he couldn't convince anyone that someone with colourblindness has just as good vision as someone with normal vision. It's the same with circumcision, just because he can orgasm doesn't mean that either he (or you for that matter) is getting the full experience.

I sometimes ask people with that argument how they would feel if they knew that they'd been born with perfect vision, but their mother had thought that they wouldn't be able to handle the brightness of the world, so deliberately had their eyes altered so they couldn't see all the colours...
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#24 of 48 Old 02-04-2007, 10:04 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I have vestibulitis. It's a hypersensitivity of the nerves of the vestibule, the area between the clitoris and the vagina. Most of the time, penetration during sex is painful. Even when it's not painful, it's not pleasurable at all. I have no idea how sex is SUPPOSED to feel for a woman. I have no frame of reference. This is all I've known. If most American women had vestibulitis, they wouldn't know any different than discomfort and lack of sensation during sex and would probably rate their sex lives much higher than they would had they developed it later in life. The only reason I know any different is from the experiences of other women.

Similarly, women in African/Middle Eastern nations that routinely circumcise their women report enjoying sex and even experiencing orgasm. Everyone is like them and circ'd sex is "normal" to them. Had they experienced sex and orgasm prior to circumcision, I have no doubt they would rate their sex lives much lower than they presently do.

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#25 of 48 Old 02-04-2007, 10:14 PM
 
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This is impossible to test.
Well.

My daughter's father happens to be a fag. : He is intact, he is British and RIC is very uncommon. He has slept with literally hundreds of men, like 400+ probably, so that's a pretty good case study IMO. He gets around. And he says that intact men are *way* more sensitive than cut men, and that cut men require much more intense friction than intact men to orgasm, whereas intact men can enjoy much more subtle forms of stimulation. He said he couldn't believe the difference when he came over here and began having sex regularly with circed partners.

So... I believe him. And I would not cut any son of mine, and aside from the pain/unnecessary trauma to a newborn issue, this is largely why.
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#26 of 48 Old 02-05-2007, 09:30 AM
 
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I meant from the point of view of a man who is circumcised as infant. There is no way he can honestly/scientifically tell any sensitivity difference if he was circumcised as newborn. All he knows is 'cut sex'.

Ofcourse allready common sense tells that when you cut something away = no more feeling.

IMO it is really sad for men and women who have been cut when they were children. They will never experience the total gift mother nature gave.
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#27 of 48 Old 02-05-2007, 09:46 AM
 
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I meant from the point of view of a man who is circumcised as infant. There is no way he can honestly/scientifically tell any sensitivity difference if he was circumcised as newborn. All he knows is 'cut sex'.
Yes, yes I understand what you are saying. You make a very good point. And then people say, "Well I don't feel any difference." They don't know.
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#28 of 48 Old 02-06-2007, 12:48 PM
 
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Really? How long ago was he circ'd? He's comparing it to... what?

If you plucked my eyelid off I'd probably say my eyeball was still sensitive, esp if I had nada to compare it to.
he was circ'd as a baby,,,he is not comparing it to anything I guess,,,it is true that he feels a lot of pleasure during sex, noticeably more than any other man I've been with, he is very sensitive and aware in general and another thing he said was that he isnt sure he would want to feel more pleasure because it would be even harder to slow it down,,,we practice tantra together....I am going to ask him to consider restoring again, for me.

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#29 of 48 Old 02-06-2007, 02:31 PM
 
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OK this may be way TMI

But I have mentioned damage affecting my sexual pleasure before so I'll just keep on going here.

I have heard the comment about circ'd men not knowing if they would want to experience "more" because it might be too much ......

Before my damage, I could ride pleasureable sensations forever.
Now I still receive pleasure but I do not have the same fine sensitivity and that makes it much more difficult to fineness the pace. I have wondered if part of what I have experienced is akin to what a man who is circumcised experiences. If they were circumcised at birth, they would have nothing to compare it to, hence the belief "I couldn't take any more".
It's quality not quantity.

My bottom opinion is that it's gotta harm it. And thank goodness for humankind, most still experience pleasure.

Now 400+ male contacts, that's more like the info I could depend on..... then again it really isn't a study is it.
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#30 of 48 Old 02-06-2007, 03:21 PM
 
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I think anecdotes that plural become more reliable than most data- how are you going to arrange a double-blind study?

"Let's see, we need two hundred intact guys who don't know they're intact, two hundred circ'd guys who don't know they're circ'd, & some enthusiastic fellators/trixes who are nonetheless too stupid to know the difference."

I don't have 400 experiences chocked up, but I did live through the seventies & eighties as a single girl (in Hollywood), & let's just say my experiences agree with Thismama's Babydaddy.
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