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#1 of 24 Old 05-31-2003, 10:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi,
I would like all the expecting parents to know that the U.S. is the only country in the world that circumcises baby boys for no reason.
No one in all of Europe circumcises unless they are Jews or Moslims.
I work in a hospital maternity ward and I see so many baby boys still being circumcised and I wonder why? The baby is born exactly the way God or nature intended him to be. There is no reason to do surgery on a brand new healthy infant.
Of course doctors make good money from the sugery. And the foreskin is sold for profit.
But those poor babies. I see them being tortured by this procedure. There is no real anaesthesia to prevent the pain. I know that for a fact.
They tell the parents the surgery is minor and necessary to prevent cancer. But circumcised males can still get cancer. And that is so rare, that it would make more sense to remove all the breast tissue of a baby boy because there is more breast cancer in boys than penile cancer. Imagine that!
HIV/AIDS is not contracted by the foreskin. The majority of European males are genitally intact and there is far less HIV/AIDS in Europe than in the U.S.
Urinary Tract Infection is another reason doctors say is a reason. But baby girls get three times more UTI than baby boys and we don't do surgery on them. Just breast feed.
Cleanliness is a stupid reason to do surgery for. After all, the foreskin is tightly attached to the head (glans) until the boy is about 5 years old and it should never be pushed back. It protects from bacteria, dirt, germs, etc. When the foreskin get loose, the boy can rinse under it while he is in the tub, just like he would rinse his eye lids or behinde the ears, or any other body part.
I see circumcisions done so often and they are not pleasant to watch. The babies scream and it is clear that it is very traumatic to the infant. Some babies are so frightened that they are literally terrorized. They quit breathing or vomit or go into shock. Sometimes the cicumcision causes so much bleeding that the wound has to be cauterized. It is awful! The babies are stapped to a board and can not help themselves. The only thing they can do is scream for mercy. Some babies have too much skin cut off, they will look mutilated when they are grown ups. And 229 babies die each year in the U.S. as a result of cicumcision. It is the darkest secret of the U.S. medical data base but be verified on www.cirp.org
Before anyone does that to their child, they should really go and see a cicumcision for themselves.
Please research it. There are some great web sites. www.mothersagainstcirc.org and www.doctorsopposingcicumcision.org and www.cirp.org
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#2 of 24 Old 05-31-2003, 10:36 PM
 
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thank you so much for this post. i agree w/you 100% (and so does my intact son!)

amy
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#3 of 24 Old 05-31-2003, 10:39 PM
 
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Moving this to the Circ board...

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#4 of 24 Old 06-01-2003, 01:00 PM
 
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Excellent summary nightowl1234. For references to these facts the following articles provide information by medical experts:

http://mothering.com/10-0-0/html/10-...cision85.shtml

- and -

http://mothering.com/10-0-0/html/10-...rcson103.shtml
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#5 of 24 Old 06-01-2003, 06:45 PM
 
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It is DEFINITELY a problem. I hate it. It is so sad and unecessary! Unfortunately it is considered the norm here and it is up to us to get the word out so that other moms and/or dads can make an informed chioce. You can't make others choices and that is a hard thing that I have had to learn.
I saw a TLC program (not a BabyStory) but this family was Jewish and they showed the baby's (he was only 8 days old) Brisk (sp?). The mom was distraught and when the baby started to scream from the cutting everyone cried and started singing louder and louder. Please know, I am not bashing the religion at all! It is the first time I have seen a circ' on TV and I must say it was a very sad awakening even for me who 's choices are non circ'. I just hope others saw it and it gave them the same feelings I had.
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#6 of 24 Old 06-03-2003, 04:26 AM
 
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In reply to your post that the USA is the only place that does circs for no reason Australia does as well though it is not so common now but any parent can ask for the procedure to be done.

Ruth from sunny Australia
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#7 of 24 Old 06-03-2003, 09:40 AM
 
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Ruth:

The circumcision rate in Australia is now below 20% nationwide. I believe what was meant was that the US is the only nation that still circumcises the majority of it's men. At one time, the US, Canada, Australia, England and New Zealand all circumcised the majority. All of the rest have pretty much abandoned the practice. Canada's rate is about 17% and I think Australia's rate is less than 10%, England is around 1% and New Zealand's rate is near that. These percentages are about 5 years old and may have changed since then to a lower percentage.

I understand that it is quite difficult to find a doctor in Australia now who will perform a circumcision. Do you have any feel for this? Do you know of any parents who have circumcised and if they had any difficulty finding anyone to do it?



Frank
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#8 of 24 Old 06-12-2003, 02:07 AM
 
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Circumcision: How did it start? Aberham was the first to circumcisie, Starting with his son then every male in camp. This was a sign for God as a covedent be tween man and God. That is why the the Jews and Arab are circumcise; for both come from Aberham or the Father to two nations.

I read something on the internet that the American medical association after botching a circumcision will push for gender reasignment even though it has been proven not to work ending in suicide or saver depression for the rest of the males life!

It has got to Stop, this is pure stupidity!
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#9 of 24 Old 06-12-2003, 03:25 AM
 
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Umh, Yeah, Stylishned. There are several accounts of gender reasignment that have been disputed because of first-hand information.

And By The Way, Welcome to the boards, bud. I guess I'm assuming you are a male.
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#10 of 24 Old 06-12-2003, 11:20 AM
 
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Many Christians grab on to the Covenant of Abraham and are totally unaware of the New Covenant of Jesus and circumcise their child "for religious reasons." My sister-in-law is the daughter of a minister and made this same mistake. Even her father didn't understand until it was explained to him. (after over an hour of scripture reading) and was still not totally comfortable with his new found knowledge.




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#11 of 24 Old 06-12-2003, 12:01 PM
 
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Quote:
I saw a TLC program (not a BabyStory) but this family was Jewish and they showed the baby's (he was only 8 days old) Brisk (sp?). The mom was distraught and when the baby started to scream from the cutting everyone cried and started singing louder and louder. Please know, I am not bashing the religion at all! It is the first time I have seen a circ' on TV and I must say it was a very sad awakening even for me who 's choices are non circ'. I just hope others saw it and it gave them the same feelings I had.
There is no singing at a bris during the cutting. The baby usually starts to cry as soon as his diaper is taken off. Many people cry at brisin as they are a deep spiritual experiance- a time when the heavens open up to prayer. Many people cry remembering the generations where performing any mitzva (including bris) or learning anything about our faith was forbidden by law of the land and punishable by death.
Every jew has seen at least one bris. Thank G-d most do not have the feelings you had.

If you aren't "bashing" bris milah why bring it up?
Unless you are trying in the least to understand our laws, tradition, and total way of life- leave any of it (including bris milah) out your discusion please. Thanks!

-BelovedBird

Mom of 5 boys- 13, 10, 8, 2 : and newbie Aug. 24th, '09 . babywearing advocate . Cook, baker, homemaker, wife to a man with another woman's kidney (live altruistic, unknown donor).
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#12 of 24 Old 06-12-2003, 12:29 PM
 
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I saw it and it made me physically ill. It makes absolutely no sense. I have several friends who are jewish and do a bris shalom. It is a naming ceremony without the cutting. It has been a huge sense of relief for them.
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#13 of 24 Old 06-12-2003, 04:39 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by momto3boys
I saw it and it made me physically ill. It makes absolutely no sense. I have several friends who are jewish and do a bris shalom. It is a naming ceremony without the cutting. It has been a huge sense of relief for them.
Mods?

Mabey the discussion of religious circ (supposed to not happen in this forum) should be stopped, or the thread moved?

-BelovedBird

Mom of 5 boys- 13, 10, 8, 2 : and newbie Aug. 24th, '09 . babywearing advocate . Cook, baker, homemaker, wife to a man with another woman's kidney (live altruistic, unknown donor).
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#14 of 24 Old 06-12-2003, 05:17 PM
 
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BelovedBird:

I don't see that religion has been discussed here, only a report of the reaction of the baby to painful cutting and a description of the reaction of the attendees. If anyone has injected religion here, it is you. I see nothing inappropriate in what others have posted.




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#15 of 24 Old 06-12-2003, 05:22 PM
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BB, all the religious discussion I've seen here is in your post which describes at length, what is and isn't included in a religious ceremony. Sorry, I'm just not seeing anything that is religious circ in nature except for your post!

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#16 of 24 Old 06-12-2003, 05:24 PM
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Oops, I'm sorry, Frank. x-posted with you.
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#17 of 24 Old 06-12-2003, 05:50 PM
 
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I'm not the one that brought up the word "bris" or started talking about a jewish ceremony. To me, that is discussion of "religious circ". I'm not a Mod, so my opinion on the subject doesn't matter.




-BelovedBird

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#18 of 24 Old 06-12-2003, 07:33 PM
 
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I guess I should have specified but as soon as they cut the baby he was screaming. This is the point I was making. The people were singing when it was over but in the duration he had been crying and as the people were singing theyhe got louder as did the baby. I am sorry if this offends you but it was definitely specified that I was not trying to bash the religion. It has nothing to do with the fact that it was a bris but that was what it was. This is not the religious forum and I know that I just wanted to help you understand better of why I included the information.
~Earthmama
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#19 of 24 Old 06-12-2003, 07:36 PM
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I don't think the word "bris" itself is banned, per se; in other words, I think it is ok to use religious words in context but not actually discuss the pros/cons of religion. (I'm not a mod, either, though.)

Such shows as "Baby Story" never show non-religious circs, so probably the only way the above poster would have seen one on TV was in the context of a Jewish ceremony.

I don't think the fact that it involved Judaism bothered her; I think she was bothered by the circ itself, and that was her point.

(Oops, earthmama, I posted at the same time as you.)
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#20 of 24 Old 06-13-2003, 03:08 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Stylishned
[B]Circumcision: How did it start? Aberham was the first to circumcisie, Starting with his son then every male in camp. This was a sign for God as a covedent be tween man and God. That is why the the Jews and Arab are circumcise; for both come from Aberham or the Father to two nations.
Just because I quoted only earthmama in my OP, does not mean that her post was the only one that led to my impression that religion was being discussed here.
Just FYI.

I go now.

-BelovedBird

Mom of 5 boys- 13, 10, 8, 2 : and newbie Aug. 24th, '09 . babywearing advocate . Cook, baker, homemaker, wife to a man with another woman's kidney (live altruistic, unknown donor).
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#21 of 24 Old 06-13-2003, 08:51 AM
 
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I see that as discussing history, not religion. Because the first mention that most people know of circumcision is in Genesis, you can't discuss the historical context without mentioning the Bible/religion. However, I don't see that as debating the relative merits/failures, etc. of any particular religion.

The policy of no discussion of religion here is to avoid anyone saying that one religion is superior/inferior to another. I just haven't seen that. Maybe I'm wrong and will accept it if someone can point it out to me.




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#22 of 24 Old 06-13-2003, 06:30 PM
 
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Hi Everyone,

First of all, Beloved Bird, I think its great you are writing in. After all, it takes courage to go against the grain and take all the heat. I think a lot of us here know what that is like, because choosing not to circ is often met with resistance from our surroundings.

I think, I can speak for everyone and assure you that nobody here has anything against the Jews or the Jewish religion. However, we are strongly against circumcision, because it is painful and has no medical benefit. It just so happens that circ is part of a religious ritual, so we oppose the circ, not the fact that Jews celebrate their religion.

We have nothing against the singing, the praying, the eating. We do have something against the forceful cutting of an infants genitalia.

Anyhow, please feel free to write in again Beloved Bird, a voice of dissent is a good thing. If I came across as somone hating the Jews, accept my sincere apologies.

Lise Brit
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#23 of 24 Old 06-13-2003, 07:29 PM
 
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Whew!!! Glad that is all cleared up.
~Beloved Bird Please come and feel free always to discuss here. I am very much interested in learning about anything and everything. It is people who go against the stream who enlighten us all. We all learn from one another IMO. So stick around!
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#24 of 24 Old 06-13-2003, 10:00 PM - Thread Starter
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A rabbinical liturgy of a BRIS SHALOM ceremony:
We are gathered together today, in the last year of a century which has given us profound and unprecdented insight into our humanity, one hundred years in which we have learned that each of us is fully human from the moment we are born, able to feel and able to remember all the richness of each and every moment's experience.

But this century has also given us the holocaust, a bloodletting of unprecedented proportion. Given both the insight and the brutality of our century, we are inevitably led to conclude that there must be no more bloodshed in G_d's name. We continue where Abraham left off: We shall do the child no harm.
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