New UN Recommendations....not good... - Page 2 - Mothering Forums
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
#31 of 48 Old 03-29-2007, 06:46 AM
 
Daisyuk's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 1,061
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
"Dr Alan Brody, national director of the United Nation's Children's Fund, who supports male circumcision as one precaution against HIV infection, asserts that studies on the effectiveness of the procedure, have produced differing statistics. Brody goes on to say, "depending on the report you read, the possibility of infection is reduced by 25 percent to 50 percent in the circumcised male"."
http://www.info.gov.za/speeches/2004/04070212451001.htm

"But two prominent Americans based in the capital have aggressively pushed news of the circumcision research into the public consciousness here. Daniel Halperin, a researcher and AIDS technical adviser for the U.S. Agency for International Development, has convened meetings among Swazi doctors to discuss the research.

Alan Brody, the top official in Swaziland for UNICEF, began incorporating messages about the protective effects of circumcision in public education campaigns in 2002. With the results from South Africa, Brody has become increasingly vocal. Now, official discussions are focusing not on whether to make circumcision more widely available, but how."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...500749_pf.html

"Recently there appears to be growing interest on the part of
NERCHA, UNICEF and some other stakeholders in expanding access to safe, voluntary male circumcision/male RH services in the country." (my emphasis)
http://pdf.dec.org/pdf_docs/Pdacf094.pdf

"15.5 Activities
The project mobilises communities using innovative communication approaches to seek service and
further guidance from the community clinics to prevent transmission of HIV from mothers to children. The
communication tools provide accurate and in-depth information to both mothers-to-be and their families
and neighbours that are the potential supporters of women making decisions about uptake of HIV testing
and prevention interventions. "

"15.8 Constraints/Issues raised by the field office
Some of the challenges identified in the first progress report are (a) working toward financial sustainability
beyond 2006 (b) improving male participation (c) operationalising the “Plus” component of PMTCT e.g.
availability of ARVs for mother/child treatment, prevention of opportunistic infections, availability of male circumcision etc and (d) follow up of positive cases in the community. "
http://globalism.rmit.edu.au/files/S...n_Sec_2004.pdf

"Dr Alan Brody, national director of the UN Children's Fund, who supports
male circumcision as one precaution against HIV infection, said studies on
the effectiveness of the procedure have produced differing statistics.
"Depending on the report you read, the possibility of infection is reduced
by 25 percent to 50 percent in the circumcised male. This is significant.
The male child is best circumcised at an early age, preferably in
infancy," Brody said
."
http://iys.cidi.org/humanitarian/hivaids/04a/ixl24.html


After all, there's no after market in adult foreskins is there.
Daisyuk is offline  
#32 of 48 Old 03-29-2007, 06:50 AM
 
mamakay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: in la la land, or so they say...
Posts: 8,995
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Yeah...the babies are cheaper.
Pain relief is expensive.

I need to go throw up now.
mamakay is offline  
#33 of 48 Old 03-29-2007, 07:37 AM
 
mamakay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: in la la land, or so they say...
Posts: 8,995
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
When the studies first came out, I actually lost sleep for a few nights.
It's all just too...horrific...for me to even wrap my mind around.

And how the hell can the WHO endorse RIC but oppose all 4 types of FGM?

The mechanism involves the herpes virus sores increasing HIV transmission. Herpes sores like women's labias. Amputate the labia and you'll get the same thing in girls.
They could totally follow up on the "FGM decreases HIV" study and find this same thing. (not that's I'm advocating that).
But that would be "unethical". Coz FGM is "barbaric".

It's just so schitzophrenic.
mamakay is offline  
#34 of 48 Old 03-29-2007, 07:42 AM
 
Daisyuk's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 1,061
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Yes, but when you realise it's all about exporting American culture (and harvesting the tissue) it does make more sense.

FGM is not culturally acceptable to Americans and there is no market for female tissue, MGM is not only culturally acceptable to Americans, but there are large profits to be had from the harvested foreskins (I don't believe for one minute that they will only be doing it to adults, it will be the babies that get targetted).

The WHO and the UN have just demonstrated how much under the American thumb they are.
Daisyuk is offline  
#35 of 48 Old 03-29-2007, 12:48 PM
 
pdx.mothernurture's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 2,522
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamakay View Post
And how the hell can the WHO endorse RIC but oppose all 4 types of FGM?

The mechanism involves the herpes virus sores increasing HIV transmission. Herpes sores like women's labias. Amputate the labia and you'll get the same thing in girls.
I'd like to hear more about this.

The mechanisms I've heard suggested involved Langerhans Cells & keratinization. Anyone have more information on the Herpes-angle?

Thanks,

Jen
pdx.mothernurture is offline  
#36 of 48 Old 03-29-2007, 12:50 PM
 
Soxfan Mom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 527
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
This is one of the top stories on www.thehuffingtonpost.com today. It's usually a liberal site, but there are some boneheaded comments there, too. Very discouraging.
Soxfan Mom is offline  
#37 of 48 Old 03-29-2007, 07:39 PM
 
mamasophy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: central coast, CA
Posts: 578
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
:
http://www.ias-2005.org/planner/Abstracts.aspx?AID=3138
The above links to a study showing that circ'd WOMEN have lower rates of HIV infection.
Is the UN going to start recommending FGM as protection against HIV now too?
I suppose if there were enough money in it...
mamasophy is offline  
#38 of 48 Old 03-29-2007, 08:15 PM
 
mamakay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: in la la land, or so they say...
Posts: 8,995
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdx.mothernurture View Post
I'd like to hear more about this.

The mechanisms I've heard suggested involved Langerhans Cells & keratinization. Anyone have more information on the Herpes-angle?

Thanks,

Jen
Look through the fulltext of the 2 RTC's. Almost every guy that seroconverted came in for herpes, and when they ran the HIV test, they found that they had been infected with that, too, probably at the same time.

They were having sex with prostitutes who are co-infected with herpes and HIV (most likely).

That also means that the intact guys who initially seroconverted represent an unusual behavioral high-risk sub-group, which is another reason why ending the study early is going to give an inflated figure. The effect will be smaller in the guys who aren't addicted to condomless sex with prostitutes.

The effect is going to be really pronounced in the short term for guys with high risk behaviors, but probably fizzle out progressively after that, to a 0% difference on the other behavioral end with the guys who never ever engage in high risk behaviors.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/natio...5203-2809r.htm

Quote:
ASSOCIATED PRESS
Treating genital herpes can also help keep the AIDS virus under control in women with both infections and might also reduce the spread of HIV, the first major study to test this strategy suggests.
Many people with HIV are also infected with the herpes type 2 virus, and scientists have long known that herpes sores on the genitals can make it easier to become infected with the AIDS virus and could increase the risk of transmitting HIV to others.
So circumcise (via type 1 or type 4) the girls, too, and you'll get a MUCH bigger effect.
But that would be "an atrocity".

Coz removing the bits off of girls would be a violation of human rights.
mamakay is offline  
#39 of 48 Old 03-30-2007, 10:38 AM
 
mamakay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: in la la land, or so they say...
Posts: 8,995
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Here, pdx...

(Lancet registration for the fulltext is free)

http://www.thelancet.com/journals/la...03134/fulltext

Quote:
Table 3 shows HIV incidence by study arm and follow-up visit intervals, together with cumulative incidence over 2 years. The intention-to-treat analysis showed a progressive decrease in incidence in the intervention group over the entire follow-up period (p for trend 0·014). Incidence fell in the control group between the time of first follow-up and the time of second follow-up, and remained stable thereafter; however, the trend was not significant (p=0·6). The IRR of HIV acquisition associated with circumcision also fell over time; this increase in efficacy was of borderline significance (p=0·054 for the time-by-study arm interaction). The 24 month cumulative HIV incidence was 0·66 cases per 100 person-years in the intervention group, compared with 1·33 cases per 100 person-years in the control group
I'm seeing that as being a type of bellcurve effect. Among the circ guys and the intact guys both, the initial cases of HIV are coming from those guys with unreal high-risk behaviors. (probably regular condomless sex with prostitutes). Being circed basically "buys" a guy who's going to do that one year of that behavior before becoming infected compared to his intact peers behaving in the same way.

Quote:
Men reporting symptoms of sexually transmitted diseases during a follow-up interval had higher rates of HIV acquisition than did asymptomatic participants, but the protective effects of circumcision were observed irrespective of the presence of such symptoms.
Again...these are the guys who regularly have sex without condoms, with prostitutes who are co-infected with HIV and herpes, among other sexually transmitted pathogens.
So yeah...it delays their infection by about a year, which looks impressive in a study that's cut short like these were. But by next december, 20 something more of the circed guys will be HIV positive, and probably fewer of the intact guys...because it's the guys who are doing the risky stuff that are going to be most/all of your initial cases of HIV.

Quote:
Consistent condom use during this interval was slightly higher in the intervention group than it was in the control group (table 6; p=0·11). Similarly, inconsistent condom use was higher in the intervention group than it was in the control group (table 6; p=0·0004). At the 12 and 24 months follow-up visits, the number of sexual partners, non-marital relationships, and condom use were much the same in the two groups
AND...
Recently circed guys were more likely to initially use condoms than their intact peers. But then they apparently got bored with the whole "exciting new penis" thing and went back to doing whatever they were doing before.
This totally skews the findings in favor of circumcision.


Quote:
Since genital ulcer disease is a risk factor for the acquisition of HIV,14–16 and symptomatic genital ulcer disease was associated with higher rates of HIV acquisition in this trial (table 4), it is plausible that the protective effect of circumcision on HIV could be mediated in part by the protective effects of the procedure on self-reported genital ulcer disease. By contrast, there was no effect of circumcision on symptoms of discharge or dysuria (table 5), which is consistent with data from observational studies that indicate a lack of an effect of circumcision on gonorrhoea or chlamydia prevalence
So you could do horrible things to women's genitals, too, and make it harder for herpes to spread.

If they're worried about money (which is the rationale for RIC...the babies are cheaper)...they should focus on TREATING THE SEX WORKERS. It is the sex workers who are co-infected with herpes and HIV who are infecting the most men the most quickly.
Give the sex workers antivirals for HIV and herpes, and they're not going to be infecting as many men.

That would make the most sense if resources are an issue.

Leave the damn babies alone.
mamakay is offline  
#40 of 48 Old 03-30-2007, 03:30 PM
 
pdx.mothernurture's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 2,522
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
God, it would be so helpful to compile all of this information into a single documment we could refer to/share. The whole thing just makes me angrier and angrier.

Jen
pdx.mothernurture is offline  
#41 of 48 Old 03-31-2007, 12:37 AM
 
annalaura's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Georgia
Posts: 182
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
LAME.
that picrure is terrible
annalaura is offline  
#42 of 48 Old 03-31-2007, 02:12 AM
 
* guest *'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 179
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Did you see the look of anguish on that poor child's face?! MY GOODNESS! Poor thing, being held down against his will and being forcefully mutilated...

Barbaric is not the word...
* guest * is offline  
#43 of 48 Old 03-31-2007, 05:51 AM
 
Daisyuk's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 1,061
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
<sarcasm>
But it's not barbaric, it's happening to them, and that's what they're used to. They're like that anyway, most places they do it to themselves, that's why they don't use condoms and prefer to be mutilated especially if it comes with some kind of painful ceremony.
</sarcasm>

It's white man's slavery, control and domination all over again. We not going to give you education like we do in our civilised countries, we're not going to provide the condoms that our population uses, we ARE going to alter your genitals and attempt to control your sex drive.

I suppose they'll start attacking the Chinese and Indians next. It will be interesting to see how far they get with a fully intact population.
Daisyuk is offline  
#44 of 48 Old 03-31-2007, 01:51 PM
 
Stardust27's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 274
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I just had an idea:

We know that in the countries where the recent HIV studies were performed, people practice "dry sex", which is known as an important factor for HIV transmission.

What if, after circumcision of the men, their female partner(s) would no longer see the need to dry out their vagina, because sex is already dry enough? The partners of the intact men would have continued to practice dry sex, of course.

That would lead to a real reduction in HIV infections among the circumcised men that would not be caused by circumcision directly, but indirectly, via the abandonment of dry sex.

That would mean that the true key to reducing HIV would be abandoning dry sex, not performing circumcision.

Did any of the studies consider this? Or did they all have their heads too deep in the sand to understand this connection, because circumcision can not possibly have any effect on sexuality and intercourse? *sarcasm*

Stardust
Stardust27 is offline  
#45 of 48 Old 06-16-2007, 11:12 AM
fa1
 
fa1's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 6
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
(Disclaimer: I am male, 50s, born in UK, author of blog stopcircumcision.blogspot.com. This is a copy of my most recent blog post)

The World Bank has often been criticised for funding large-scale projects (such as hydropower schemes) which do not necessarily benefit the host community. However, for a recent project, whose report has just been published on their web site, the World Bank should be congratulated. Not a single reference to the word "circumcision" appears in it! The project, the Africa Multi-Country AIDS Program 2000-2006 (MAP), concentrated on tried-and-tested methods, such as prevention of mother-to-child transmission, voluntary counselling and testing, distribution of male and female condoms, provision of information and education about AIDS to the population, provision of antiretroviral (ARV) therapy, supporting vulnerable children, and supporting income-generating activities, for example, as alternatives to sex work.

The program certainly appears to have led to successful outcomes. The percentage of persons of age 15-49 with AIDS in sub-Saharan Africa has stopped increasing. In most countries surveyed. the number of people with a comprehensive knowledge about HIV has increased, as has the rate of condom use and the percentage of HIV-infected people on ARV therapy. For example, in Benin, the fraction of young women who reported using a condom in last sex with a nonregular partner increased from under 20 per cent in 2003 to over 50 per cent in 2005, and in Uganda, the percentage of people with advanced HIV infection who are being treated with antiretroviral drugs increased from 7 per cent in 2003 to over 55 per cent in 2005.

There is thus every reason to suppose that education, treatment, and poverty support measures will decrease AIDS incidence in all African countries. The encouragement of male genital mutilation in such countries as Swaziland, with its small population, and Botswana, with a democratic government and relatively well-educated populace, is therefore absolutely scandalous as well as being totally unnecessary. I congratulate the following Africans for standing up to the American-inspired mutilation bandwagon:

* President Museveni, Uganda
* Dr. Joseph Matare, Namibia
* The Luo Council of Elders, Kenya
* Alex Myers and Jonny Myers, South Africa

The WHO/UNAIDS support for male circumcision is setting the stage for a tragedy similar to the case of South Korea. Before the Korean War, circumcision was unheard of, but it appears to have been introduced under American military influence, and is now inflicted on about 90 per cent of boys.

For the sake of all of the world's male population, I therefore implore WHO/UNAIDS to change their stupid policy!
fa1 is offline  
#46 of 48 Old 06-16-2007, 02:40 PM
 
mamasophy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: central coast, CA
Posts: 578
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Thank you for posting this!!
mamasophy is offline  
#47 of 48 Old 06-24-2007, 06:13 PM
fa1
 
fa1's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 6
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by fa1 View Post
for a recent project, whose report has just been published on their web site, the World Bank should be congratulated. Not a single reference to the word "circumcision" appears in it! The project, the Africa Multi-Country AIDS Program 2000-2006 (MAP), concentrated on tried-and-tested methods
Well the World Bank has also been responsible for some terrifying rubbish. The March 2006 report Male Circumcision: Evidence and Implications, by David Wilson and Joy de Beyer, encourages countries with low circumcision rates to introduce mass circumcision, citing as a positive example the dreadful case of South Korea, which started mutilating boy children only after the Korean War under American military influence. (Figure 12 of the report shows that nearly 85 per cent of South Korean males in age cohorts 16-39 are circumcised).

In fact the paper they cite in support of the high South Korean circumcision rates (Kim DS, Lee JY, Pang MG. Male circumcision: A South Korean perspective. BJU Int 1999; 83 (Suppl 1): 28-33) has been taken entirely out of context. The Korean authors state in their abstract:
Conclusion: South Korea has an unusual history of circumcision. The mistaken and out-dated [my emphasis] notions about circumcision and lack of knowledge of phimosis by physicians seem to be a leading contributory factor to the extraordinarily high circumcision rate.

I conclude that it is worth while to study carefully the papers cited by any reports which purport to show that male genital mutilation has positive health effects. You may find that the authors contradict themselves!
fa1 is offline  
#48 of 48 Old 06-25-2007, 06:17 AM
fa1
 
fa1's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 6
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by fa1 View Post
Well the World Bank has also been responsible for some terrifying rubbish. The March 2006 report Male Circumcision: Evidence and Implications, by David Wilson and Joy de Beyer, encourages countries with low circumcision rates to introduce mass circumcision, citing as a positive example the dreadful case of South Korea,
May be obtained from http://siteresources.worldbank.org/I...e3006Final.pdf
fa1 is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Mothering Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off