Egypt outlaws all forms of female circumcision - Page 2 - Mothering Forums
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#31 of 51 Old 07-01-2007, 03:03 PM
 
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For whatever it's worth, the 97% statistic is not particularly accurate and for additional reasons can be misleading. Egypt has seen a lot of discussion of this issue over the past several years, to the point that many feel it has been talked to death -- the result of all of that talking seems however to be that the practice has been on a sharp decline. Such high numbers may well be accurate among older generations, however they are not among younger and are dramatically far from true among the current generation of children.

Further, what happened here was not something particularly secularly legally dramatic -- the only major difference in the eyes of the people is that the state had the appointed religious leader delare the practice illegal under Islamic religious law as well. Which, obviously, is a conversation which belongs elsewhere.
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#32 of 51 Old 07-01-2007, 03:17 PM
 
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Just close your eyes and see the same headline with your own country and "male" inserted:

U.S. Bans all Male Circumcision

Sounds pretty good, doesn't it.
Nope. It sounds awful to me.

I'd love to see health insurance stop paying for the procedure, and I'd love to see it no longer being performed on OB wards, and I'd love to see pediatricians and urologists become knowledgable about the intact penis. I would love to see "routine" circ completely stopped, and parents in non-circing religions to view circ as a purely cosmetic procedure. I want to see the end of all this BS spouted by medical "professionals" that circ is "cleaner" or "healthier." I'd love to see the US circ rate down to about 3%.

But completely banned in the US? Religious practices deemed illegal? I'd fight tooth and nail to prevent a law like that.

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#33 of 51 Old 07-01-2007, 05:17 PM
 
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Nope. It sounds awful to me.
What do you think of the Egyptian law in the OP?

-Angela
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#34 of 51 Old 07-01-2007, 05:51 PM
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Nope. It sounds awful to me.
:
sounds *really* good to me!

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I'd fight tooth and nail to prevent a law like that
well, then we will be sure in different camps...

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I'd love to see health insurance stop paying for the procedure, and I'd love to see it no longer being performed on OB wards, and I'd love to see pediatricians and urologists become knowledgeable about the intact penis. I would love to see "routine" circ completely stopped, and parents in non-circing religions to view circ as a purely cosmetic procedure. I want to see the end of all this BS spouted by medical "professionals" that circ is "cleaner" or "healthier." I'd love to see the US circ rate down to about 3%...
What about those poor 3% of babies?! They will be permanently mutilated without their consent just because their parents happen to believe they have right to do so for whatever reason?!
If you are so much for freedom of choice how can you possibly think it’s OK to take this choice away from those 3% babies : ?! I can see your point when it comes to circ adults if they choose it to be done to them (male or female), but what freedom of choice has to do with mutilating babies : ?!
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#35 of 51 Old 07-01-2007, 06:29 PM
 
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Nope. It sounds awful to me.
......

....completely banned in the US?.........I'd fight tooth and nail to prevent a law like that.
All I would say to this is that female circumcision has been illegal in the US since 1996....sure, some cultural traditions were VERY upset by that as women from their groups were circumcised. However, obviously it was still passed. How do you feel about those cultural traditions which condone female circ....should they have been allowed to continue to circumcise their girls because that is what they believed to be the right thing to do?

Obviously, anyone out there who was sane would say that there has to be a line drawn legally for cultural beliefs. In fact, if there wasn't people just imagine all of the rampant animal and even human sacrifice which would be propogated. :

I think that people should have the ability to determine THEIR own cultural norms when they reach adulthood. I think those who grow up with cultural beliefs which dictate circ could easily get circumised themselves when they reach a legal age if they so choose. To allow defenseless children to be circumcised, without consent...to KNOWINGLY commit harm to a child who has no say. That in itself is something that the US constitution should protect against. Every human being should have their right to a whole, complete body be PROTECTED as a child, until they are of legal age.

I have met my share of men who are very angered that their parents used "cultural beliefs" as a reason to circumcise them as a child as they DO NOT maintain the same cultural beliefs as adults. By being circumcised, it was the parents who attempted to "force" their beliefs on their child. I feel so sad for those men who never had a choice, and were denied their birthright.

Protecting innocent babies and children, both girls and boys, against genital mutilation sounds like a rather "compelling interest" for the US government to consider in my honest opinion.

Perpetually breastfeeding or pregnant ENFP mom to a lot of kids...wife to a midwestern nice guy...living in tropical paradise...pink cats and homebirths rock!

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#36 of 51 Old 07-01-2007, 06:41 PM
 
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What about those poor 3% of babies?! They will be permanently mutilated without their consent just because their parents happen to believe they have right to do so for whatever reason?!
If you are so much for freedom of choice how can you possibly think it’s OK to take this choice away from those 3% babies : ?! I can see your point when it comes to circ adults if they choose it to be done to them (male or female), but what freedom of choice has to do with mutilating babies : ?!
yulia.
I can't get into this fully without venturing into religious discussion. I don't see circ as "mutilating babies." I see it as an unneccessary procedure that should NOT be part of "health care" and shouldn't be paid for with health care resources. I figure that 3% comprises religious circ, which IMO is a valid reason to circ.

Not everybody who opposes RIC is opposed to all circ for all reasons.

As for the article in the OP, I'm still confused. Does it outlaw ALL forms of FGM, or only clitorectomy? Does it have allowances for adults to to have this done if they choose to (at whatever age they determine adulthood)?

If the law is protecting little girls, then I'm in favor of it. If it's also preventing consenting adult women from choosing what do do with their bodies, then I'm only partially in favor of it.

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#37 of 51 Old 07-01-2007, 07:18 PM
 
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If the law is protecting little girls, then I'm in favor of it. If it's also preventing consenting adult women from choosing what do do with their bodies, then I'm only partially in favor of it.
So, just to confirm, you're in support of laws protecting little girls, but you're against laws protecting little boys, correct?

-Angela
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#38 of 51 Old 07-01-2007, 08:35 PM
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So, just to confirm, you're in support of laws protecting little girls, but you're against laws protecting little boys, correct?

-Angela
sure sounds like that to me...
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#39 of 51 Old 07-01-2007, 11:01 PM
 
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Nope. It sounds awful to me.

I'd love to see health insurance stop paying for the procedure, and I'd love to see it no longer being performed on OB wards, and I'd love to see pediatricians and urologists become knowledgable about the intact penis. I would love to see "routine" circ completely stopped, and parents in non-circing religions to view circ as a purely cosmetic procedure. I want to see the end of all this BS spouted by medical "professionals" that circ is "cleaner" or "healthier."
I agree that a complete ban on circumcision isn't what we need. What we need is a complete ban on routine infant circumcision. Adults should have the option and emergency surgeries (for legitimate reasons) need to be allowed.

However, I completely dissagree with this:

Quote:
I'd love to see the US circ rate down to about 3%.

But completely banned in the US? Religious practices deemed illegal? I'd fight tooth and nail to prevent a law like that.
Forcing your opinions on another is not ok. But when that opinion requires torture and mutilation it becomes a heinous act and should be a crime. That is part of what we are fighting for and I am sorry you are not on our side.

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#40 of 51 Old 07-02-2007, 12:44 AM
 
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careful....

-Angela
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#41 of 51 Old 07-02-2007, 04:05 AM
 
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We must ask ourselves this question. If we lived in different times and were standing for different human rights, would we be working for:
a) reducing slavery down to a 3% level?
b) getting the vote for all women except one small religious group?
c) abolishing child labour except in cases where it was really needed?

Of course not. It is such a privilege to stand for something that the world will eventually embrace wholeheartedly. There can be no boys or girls left behind in this movement. When it's still possible that one child could still die
from this insane autrocity, we will not rest till it's ended.

That's my stand and no amount of "reasonableness" will shake me from it. I know too much now and there's no route back to the ignorance.
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#42 of 51 Old 07-02-2007, 06:25 AM
 
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We must ask ourselves this question. If we lived in different times and were standing for different human rights, would we be working for:
a) reducing slavery down to a 3% level?
b) getting the vote for all women except one small religious group?
c) abolishing child labour except in cases where it was really needed?

Of course not. It is such a privilege to stand for something that the world will eventually embrace wholeheartedly. There can be no boys or girls left behind in this movement. When it's still possible that one child could still die
from this insane autrocity, we will not rest till it's ended.

That's my stand and no amount of "reasonableness" will shake me from it. I know too much now and there's no route back to the ignorance.
:

Ruthla - I admire you for being willing to post here.

But I find it hard to understand under what kind of logic little girls should be protected from genital modification without their consent and little boys should not be protected from genital modification without their consent?

Do little boys have fewer rights over their own bodies than little girls do?

I find it very difficult to understand the logic behind this (although I can understand the emotions behind it well enough).
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#43 of 51 Old 07-02-2007, 12:05 PM
 
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We must ask ourselves this question. If we lived in different times and were standing for different human rights, would we be working for:
a) reducing slavery down to a 3% level?
b) getting the vote for all women except one small religious group?
c) abolishing child labour except in cases where it was really needed?

Of course not. It is such a privilege to stand for something that the world will eventually embrace wholeheartedly. There can be no boys or girls left behind in this movement. When it's still possible that one child could still die
from this insane autrocity, we will not rest till it's ended.

That's my stand and no amount of "reasonableness" will shake me from it. I know too much now and there's no route back to the ignorance.
Baybee, I think you hit the nail on the head there!

Perpetually breastfeeding or pregnant ENFP mom to a lot of kids...wife to a midwestern nice guy...living in tropical paradise...pink cats and homebirths rock!

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#44 of 51 Old 07-02-2007, 12:40 PM
 
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Originally Posted by baybee View Post
We must ask ourselves this question. If we lived in different times and were standing for different human rights, would we be working for:
a) reducing slavery down to a 3% level?
b) getting the vote for all women except one small religious group?
c) abolishing child labour except in cases where it was really needed?

Of course not. It is such a privilege to stand for something that the world will eventually embrace wholeheartedly. There can be no boys or girls left behind in this movement. When it's still possible that one child could still die
from this insane autrocity, we will not rest till it's ended.

That's my stand and no amount of "reasonableness" will shake me from it. I know too much now and there's no route back to the ignorance.


-Angela
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#45 of 51 Old 07-02-2007, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by baybee View Post
We must ask ourselves this question. If we lived in different times and were standing for different human rights, would we be working for:
a) reducing slavery down to a 3% level?
b) getting the vote for all women except one small religious group?
c) abolishing child labour except in cases where it was really needed?

Of course not. It is such a privilege to stand for something that the world will eventually embrace wholeheartedly. There can be no boys or girls left behind in this movement. When it's still possible that one child could still die
from this insane autrocity, we will not rest till it's ended.

That's my stand and no amount of "reasonableness" will shake me from it. I know too much now and there's no route back to the ignorance.
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#46 of 51 Old 07-02-2007, 01:34 PM
 
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Originally Posted by baybee View Post
We must ask ourselves this question. If we lived in different times and were standing for different human rights, would we be working for:
a) reducing slavery down to a 3% level?
b) getting the vote for all women except one small religious group?
c) abolishing child labour except in cases where it was really needed?

Of course not. It is such a privilege to stand for something that the world will eventually embrace wholeheartedly. There can be no boys or girls left behind in this movement. When it's still possible that one child could still die
from this insane autrocity, we will not rest till it's ended.

That's my stand and no amount of "reasonableness" will shake me from it. I know too much now and there's no route back to the ignorance.
Indeed!!!!!!

OUR DAUGHTERS ARE PROTECTED SHOULDN'T OUR SONS BE TOO! :
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#47 of 51 Old 07-02-2007, 01:43 PM
 
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The attitude that 'everyone else doing it is wrong, but it's ok if we do it since we have XYZ reason to do it' really bothers me. I am sure everyone who circs their infants think they have a good reason to do it, be it cultural or religious. But really, how is it anyway ok to slice off part of a baby's genitals, whatever the reason?

I am sure in Egypt people say 'if we don't circ. our daughter no man will want her and she'll be made fun of,' much like they say here about boys. People continue the practice because they fear they and their children will be outcasts in whatever group they belong to and make up 'health' reasons to further justify it. I say stand up for your children and stop following the herd!
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#48 of 51 Old 07-06-2007, 02:55 AM
 
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wow, that was intense, baybee, even if i've been on a road trip & had to wait a few days to read it!
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#49 of 51 Old 07-06-2007, 09:34 AM
 
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In a way, I was thinking about the topic of this thread the other day when I came upon a news story about a baby boy who died from circ. I thought...gee...there is one well publicized death for female circ and a country outlaws it. HOWEVER, how many boys have died, yet countries generally fail to do anything?

Look at those two boys who recently died in Canada. Not much of a response.

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#50 of 51 Old 07-06-2007, 12:23 PM
 
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In a way, I was thinking about the topic of this thread the other day when I came upon a news story about a baby boy who died from circ. I thought...gee...there is one well publicized death for female circ and a country outlaws it. HOWEVER, how many boys have died, yet countries generally fail to do anything?
I have wondered the same thing. It really is just sick and I wish the rest of this country would wake the F up already.

OUR DAUGHTERS ARE PROTECTED SHOULDN'T OUR SONS BE TOO! :
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#51 of 51 Old 07-06-2007, 12:47 PM
 
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Phatchristy stated "I think that people should have the ability to determine THEIR own cultural norms when they reach adulthood. I think those who grow up with cultural beliefs which dictate circ could easily get circumised themselves when they reach a legal age if they so choose. To allow defenseless children to be circumcised, without consent...to KNOWINGLY commit harm to a child who has no say. That in itself is something that the US constitution should protect against. Every human being should have their right to a whole, complete body be PROTECTED as a child, until they are of legal age"

I totaly agree with this. Forcing one's cultural beliefs onto an unconsenting child, especialy in an irreversible manner is just plain WRONG.
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