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#1 of 39 Old 07-11-2007, 03:21 AM - Thread Starter
 
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: Today, or rather (since its 1am) yesterday I had my final appointment with my Midwife. I don't know how I'm going to be able to write this. I've been bawling all day. I feel like I'm loosing my fight here guys. I'm trying so hard and I pray until I'm sick! My confidence has been shattered to pieces so any attempt to articulate my struggles is challenged.

I gave my Midwife some brochures, and info cards on the damaging effects of circumcision early in my pregnancy. Every time I went in for a prenatal check up I would see all the materials ready for the hands of an expectant mother. I was hopeful that this would save many boys.

That hope came to a halting end when I discovered that my Midwife had removed my materials and replaced it with brochures and business cards of a Mohel/ Rabbi. When I asked her about them she said to me: another one of her clients saw the anti-circ information and said "We need to balance things out". She quickly became defensive and said, "I've lost two clients over this. I can't afford to loose anymore clients."

How much heartache can a person take in one day!!! In ONE day I saw a mother in my Midwife's office changing her newborns diaper and was horrified by his freshly wounded penis. It STUNNED me. Just after she left, another client arrived in time to punch her blow at me, "All three of my sons are circumcised." Not to mention, the bran-new mom I met three weeks prior, with her new baby boy -circumcised!!!

I can't help but wonder if I did something to contradict my purpose. Thats 5 boys that could have been saved. 5!!!! Its a BIG DEAL to me. I can't sleep!!! And I've got 4 kids to take care of in the morning! How in the world am I ever going to win? Nothing I do seems to be effective.
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#2 of 39 Old 07-11-2007, 03:27 AM
 
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Don't take it personal. All you can do is inform and advise. If people still refuse to hear your message, well, the blood is on their hands. You can't unfortunately, save everyone, but don't give up!

I'm personally shocked at your midwife. She lost two clients over it, so now she's pro-circ? :
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#3 of 39 Old 07-11-2007, 03:50 AM
 
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It just shows how 'greedy those professionals are just willing to allow torture of poor lil baby boys and to promote circumcision by putting circ pamphlets out such a shame when medical fields focus their payment on a male painful unneccessary surgery ?
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#4 of 39 Old 07-11-2007, 08:04 AM
 
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If she lost 2 clients on behalf of no-circ info, I would leave her based on her circ info and let her know so. Are you a pregnant client of hers or a professional client (I guess I should have asked that--it would make a difference) but you can also say that you would recommend a more intact friendly midwife to your clients if you are a doula or something.
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#5 of 39 Old 07-11-2007, 09:08 AM
 
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Originally Posted by fruitful womb View Post
: Today, or rather (since its 1am) yesterday I had my final appointment with my Midwife. I don't know how I'm going to be able to write this. I've been bawling all day. I feel like I'm loosing my fight here guys. I'm trying so hard and I pray until I'm sick! My confidence has been shattered to pieces so any attempt to articulate my struggles is challenged.

I gave my Midwife some brochures, and info cards on the damaging effects of circumcision early in my pregnancy. Every time I went in for a prenatal check up I would see all the materials ready for the hands of an expectant mother. I was hopeful that this would save many boys.

That hope came to a halting end when I discovered that my Midwife had removed my materials and replaced it with brochures and business cards of a Mohel/ Rabbi. When I asked her about them she said to me: another one of her clients saw the anti-circ information and said "We need to balance things out". She quickly became defensive and said, "I've lost two clients over this. I can't afford to loose anymore clients."

How much heartache can a person take in one day!!! In ONE day I saw a mother in my Midwife's office changing her newborns diaper and was horrified by his freshly wounded penis. It STUNNED me. Just after she left, another client arrived in time to punch her blow at me, "All three of my sons are circumcised." Not to mention, the bran-new mom I met three weeks prior, with her new baby boy -circumcised!!!

I can't help but wonder if I did something to contradict my purpose. Thats 5 boys that could have been saved. 5!!!! Its a BIG DEAL to me. I can't sleep!!! And I've got 4 kids to take care of in the morning! How in the world am I ever going to win? Nothing I do seems to be effective.
I agree you shouldn't take every child that is circumcised as a personal failure. As much as we want circ to end, it will take time for the message to come out and for people to accept the messages and get over their denial. So please, for your health and for your family, try to use continuing circ as a motivator to keep working at getting the word out.

Even when people are given information, it sometimes takes a while before they accept it, or maybe they haven't gotten a message that works for them, or maybe they still buy into some of the myths of benefits even if they know deep down it's harmful.

It's normal to feel sad, so don't deny those emotions, but take heart in that you are working to change things and eventually, circ will be rejected.

I think that you've had a setback in your battle. I encourage you to keep talking to the midwife about intactness and encouraging her to provide balanced information -- (how is removing your info a balance??) -- maybe the brochures were a little to strong content-wise... if they use words like mutilation, etc. I don't know... But take a look and see if there may be some form of pro-intact information that she would accept to distribute.

Sidebar: I really think that being very critical of people who aren't yet fully pro-intact is a mistake, because it doesn't mean they are pro-circ, it just means they don't have a full understanding or appreciation *yet*. I know it's very frustrating, but the cause will get futher with patience and persistence than it will by getting cranky, and that's where I think terms like breastfeeding nazi and militant intactivist, etc. come from -- when supporters of a cause show venom toward people who aren't with them. It turns people off and hurts the efforts. This isn't about you, OP, just what I'm seeing overall.

Lastly OP, it's so important to keep circ in perspective. You are passionate about it and that's wonderful, but you must also care for your family. I know where you are coming from because I'm feeling a little obsessive and very depressed about circ right now, and I honestly feel like I'm shutting down. But that helps no one. I hope you feel better.

ETA: Circ rates where I live are about 80%, so for me, I assume that nearly every boy is circ'd. So it's not much of a surprise. Depending on circ rates in your area, you maybe shouldn't be stunned when you see a circ'd boy. Not that I'm saying it's ok but you're setting yourself up if you expect every penis you see to be intact at this point in history.
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#6 of 39 Old 07-11-2007, 10:07 AM
 
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How incredibly disheartening and frustrating. It's not your fault, you did nothing to hurt your cause, it's all about $$$. Period. There's not much you can do to combat greed, people have car payments to make don't you know .

I'd find a new midwife though, it sounds like it's really eating you up inside. Your midiwfe should know better .
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#7 of 39 Old 07-11-2007, 10:41 AM
 
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You know you kind of expect a pro-circ attitude from some yahoo who doesn't know their a^&e from their elbow, but it really really hurts when it's someone you think should know better!
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#8 of 39 Old 07-11-2007, 01:50 PM
 
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Personally I would find another midwife. She's putting up pro-circ brochures because she lost 2 clients because of it?!?! Wow. Nice to know that she'd rather make money than save children from being mutilated.
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#9 of 39 Old 07-11-2007, 02:35 PM
 
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I would find a new midwife too. She should be ashamed of herself, letting money get in the way of trying to protect babies.

I'm sorry. All you can do is try to educate people then it's up to them to do the right thing. It does hurt though. :

OUR DAUGHTERS ARE PROTECTED SHOULDN'T OUR SONS BE TOO! :
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#10 of 39 Old 07-11-2007, 02:35 PM
 
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another thing that may help you is to not look at a baby when he/she is exposed during a diaper change, to save yourself some agony.
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#11 of 39 Old 07-11-2007, 02:39 PM
 
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I'm sorry. Please don't take it personally. You have to understand, this cultural psychosis is SO deeply ingrained in US culture, and has been for generations. We are making progress, but we are not going to change things overnight. And don't even worry about the religious ones -- change on that front is only going to come from within, if at all, and as an outsider you can't expect to win hearts and minds.

I would definitely talk to your midwife. If she can't at least put anti-circ information out there to "balance" the pro-circ stuff, then I would leave. And let her know why. Her responsibility as a midwife is to ensure her clients have *accurate* information about decisions that affect their babies for life. If she can't at least give them accurate information so they can make up their own minds (not that I think it should be a parental choice, but, for now, it is) then she is unethical and you should switch to someone else. And let her know why.

I'm sorry, no one should have to face this stress, especially at the end of pregnancy!

Come visit the NEW QuirkyBaby website -- earn QB Bucks rewards points for purchases, reviews, referrals, and more! Free US shipping on great brands of baby slings and carriers and FREE BabyLegs or babywearing mirror on orders of $100+. Take the QB Quiz for personalized advice!

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#12 of 39 Old 07-11-2007, 02:54 PM
 
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If she removed your info and put up pro-circ info, then she's obviously a pro-circ midwife and I'd do just what others have said. Leave her and find another midwife. Tell her that she's hypocritical and unethical (in the definition of what a midwife is for). She's also a hypocrite for what she did w/ the Rabbi info. I know it's not always easy to say that face-to-face, so a letter will do just fine (in fact, send it and also sneak a copy posted in the waiting room . If she and those happy-circ mothers want to live in their bubble, then there's only so much we can do unfortunately.

And I know it's hard, but try not to think about future-expectant couples who enter her practice. Since she knows your feelings and you can't camp out there, you just have to have hope that these people will search out the right information for the sake of their future-sons. Since we can't be omnipresent, we can focus on those who come into our life; and the many levels of familiarity.
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#13 of 39 Old 07-11-2007, 03:11 PM
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Why can't she just either put up info for both or info for none?

Long distance Mom to boarding school superstars E (9) and Layne (6).
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#14 of 39 Old 07-11-2007, 04:37 PM
 
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Personally I would find another midwife. She's putting up pro-circ brochures because she lost 2 clients because of it?!?! Wow. Nice to know that she'd rather make money than save children from being mutilated.

: Shame on her! : You did the right thing by leaving the information. I'd feel hurt and betrayed too. If I were a midwife and my clients left because I had anti-circ information displayed, I'd tell them not to let the door hit 'em on the arse on the way out.

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#15 of 39 Old 07-11-2007, 04:52 PM
 
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I can't afford to loose anymore clients.

Well, she just lost you as a client, right? I hope, once you've slept on it, that you see you've done all you can do. Really it's hard to change other people's minds about wanting to circ their kids, but at least you put info out there for people who were considering no-circ, to give them some info and support. And you're not going back to that awful midwife either, and it's good to take your business elsewhere, IMO.

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#16 of 39 Old 07-11-2007, 05:44 PM
 
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I think the mohel your midwife is referring people to is known state-wide. My midwives (all 4 of them...I moved in the middle of my pregnancy) all said they refer their clients to this guy b/c he does the loosest, least damaging circumcisions.

The first midwife, I didn't even get to find out her position b/c when she asked if I was circumcising, I said, "hell no". The last three, when I said, "no way" said, "good for you" and I followed up with "what would you have done if I'd said yes?" they mentioned the "loose circ mohel", but only if they couldn't convince me to leave my boy intact.

Not that it makes it OK, I'm just saying, I think all the midwives in TX use the same guy.
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#17 of 39 Old 07-11-2007, 08:30 PM
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The fight is a long one, honey. You haven't lost it. You're just getting started. We're so glad you're here with us.

"Our task is not to see the future, but to enable it."
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#18 of 39 Old 07-12-2007, 02:17 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I agree you shouldn't take every child that is circumcised as a personal failure.

Even when people are given information, it sometimes takes a while before they accept it, or maybe they haven't gotten a message that works for them, or maybe they still buy into some of the myths of benefits even if they know deep down it's harmful.

I think that you've had a setback in your battle. I encourage you to keep talking to the midwife about intactness and encouraging her to provide balanced information -- (how is removing your info a balance??) -- maybe the brochures were a little to strong content-wise... if they use words like mutilation, etc. I don't know... But take a look and see if there may be some form of pro-intact information that she would accept to distribute.

Sidebar: I really think that being very critical of people who aren't yet fully pro-intact is a mistake, because it doesn't mean they are pro-circ, it just means they don't have a full understanding or appreciation *yet*. .
I've decided to color code to create a dialog.
I usually get upset when its a parent that I've been "feeding" and he/she/they still does it. I have won my sister and a really good friend of mine and I'm working on my SIL. My husband has won a few too. The parents deserves all the credit tho. I eventually get over the ones I've lost because I have my family to look after and they can be a wonderful distraction during a time like this. But I'm especially upset with what happened to my Midwife's clients. And the fact my pro-intact information wasn't there to "Balance" out the Mohel's circumcision add. I'm equally surprised because she is from London. She trained there and does not believe in circumcision! She told me that if she had a client who wanted to circumcise their son she would do everything she could to talk them out of it. But if they still insist she would recomened a Mohel since they're more "humane" compared to a Doctor that's doing it in the hospital. I asked her what she thought about my material and if she would pass them out to her clients. She seemed very supportive of that.

This was November '06 and I was getting ready for the MGM Bill submission due in January. Some of the information was apart of that. I can see how that might've turn some of the "not-fully-informed" off. I didn't see it that way then. Ever since I've been rebuked by an intactivist, (here-two days ago) telling me that she would NEVER want a bill to pass to make circumcision illegal, I've learned that sensitive pro-intact parents actually exist!: This is a mother who tries to convince her friends against the practice and has intact sons herself. I personally think the MGM material is great. Mathew Hess, the author of the Bill has put a lot of effort in his movement and its absolutely wonderful. Thats my opinion. I also gave her 3x5 cards that I lamented with NOCIRC's information on genital integrity. She told me she had this on display before; the cards were a little different. As I handed them to her, she shared with me a story about a Doctor who use to work with her. He saw the cards and said, "I can handle a lot of things that goes on around here BUT this is where I draw the line. (he removes all the cards and walks off)". He doesn't work there anymore and she seemed impressed with the cards I made so I didn't worry about her NOT giving them out to her clients. I honestly don't know if she does or not. I haven't seen those cards layed out, just the MGM stuff.

I'm happy to get the cards back if she isn't comfortable with it. I thought she was as adamant as I am about promoting genital integrity. Just today I quietly slipped one of those cards on a table next to a very young pregnant mother sitting alone at the Library. My husband hands these cards out too. The first time was at Barns-n-Noble. The man said,"I don't want to circumcise our son but she does. Thanks for the card." I knew the couple was having a boy because I heard them talking about it but I was so terrified to give them the card myself. My husband took it and bravely talked to this couple. This was back when I first made the cards in '04.

Okay, I've had to read this one several times. I still can't get pass the "I really think that your being very critical" part. I know you mean well and your advice is very sound. I'm trying so hard to understand it. Do you really think I'm being critical? Really? If they circumcise their son, its possible they're not pro-circ. Did I get that right? I'm not sure if I've correctly put it into perspective yet. Wait... Your talking about my Midwife not being fully pro-intact and people like her. Is that right? This is coming from a very one sided point of view. She isn't here to defend herself. Its not fair of me to neglect that information in the first place. I should have included that she herself said she doesn't believe in circumcision and tries her best to persuade her clients against this practice. With that in mind and with my help (at least I thought I was helping) I began to obsess that maybe it was me that did something to contradict my purpose. I was blaming myself that perhaps I did something wrong! That in itself is very painful.

I wish there was a "one size fits all" message.

I rest my case.


Oh, one more thing, I don't know what came over me. I REALLY thought that none of her clients circumcised their sons so when I saw that baby's wound I was stunned. If it was a baby that was born in the hospital I would half expect it to be circ'd. I get so joyful when I see a boy left intact. (Not that I go looking for it) I expected this home born baby to be intact!

I failed to mention that there was another mom in the room with us. She and I were talking about how wrong it is to circumcise boys. We were really on a tangent there. In front of her. I got up and left the room and when I came back she was gone. Try to understand. This circ'd baby was being changed in a room where they weigh the babies and I walked passed this room when I saw what I saw. I didn't know she was in there changing him. After that I got really quiet. This other mother who didn't see it, was still on a ram page. After that mom left and the circ mom went to weigh herself, MW told me she had a fight with this Mom early in her pregnancy trying to get her not to circ and she STILL did it. I think she was trying to tell me to calm it down a bit so I wouldn't offend this bran new mom. It was at a very convenient moment for her to bring that up since it was while I was reading the pro-circ add. :

Sorry for the long post.
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#19 of 39 Old 07-12-2007, 01:02 PM
 
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Let her know that her pro-circ stance is losing her clients. You! If that is what resonates with her, then play that card.

It's so hard to lose some.

Mamma to 3! nurslings Emma (4) Daniel (3) and our new baby Beth! 10/10/09
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#20 of 39 Old 07-12-2007, 03:40 PM
 
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I'd switch care providers, no matter how difficult it is, so that she loses another "client" because of her short-sightedness. Grrrr....
And .

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#21 of 39 Old 07-12-2007, 04:01 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Quirky View Post
I would definitely talk to your midwife. If she can't at least put anti-circ information out there to "balance" the pro-circ stuff, then I would leave. And let her know why.
:

She can lose another client because she's pro-circ.
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#22 of 39 Old 07-12-2007, 05:36 PM
 
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I've decided to color code to create a dialog.
I usually get upset when its a parent that I've been "feeding" and he/she/they still does it. I have won my sister and a really good friend of mine and I'm working on my SIL. My husband has won a few too. The parents deserves all the credit tho. I eventually get over the ones I've lost because I have my family to look after and they can be a wonderful distraction during a time like this. But I'm especially upset with what happened to my Midwife's clients. And the fact my pro-intact information wasn't there to "Balance" out the Mohel's circumcision add. I'm equally surprised because she is from London. She trained there and does not believe in circumcision! She told me that if she had a client who wanted to circumcise their son she would do everything she could to talk them out of it. But if they still insist she would recomened a Mohel since they're more "humane" compared to a Doctor that's doing it in the hospital. I asked her what she thought about my material and if she would pass them out to her clients. She seemed very supportive of that.

This was November '06 and I was getting ready for the MGM Bill submission due in January. Some of the information was apart of that. I can see how that might've turn some of the "not-fully-informed" off. I didn't see it that way then. Ever since I've been rebuked by an intactivist, (here-two days ago) telling me that she would NEVER want a bill to pass to make circumcision illegal, I've learned that sensitive pro-intact parents actually exist!: This is a mother who tries to convince her friends against the practice and has intact sons herself. I personally think the MGM material is great. Mathew Hess, the author of the Bill has put a lot of effort in his movement and its absolutely wonderful. Thats my opinion. I also gave her 3x5 cards that I lamented with NOCIRC's information on genital integrity. She told me she had this on display before; the cards were a little different. As I handed them to her, she shared with me a story about a Doctor who use to work with her. He saw the cards and said, "I can handle a lot of things that goes on around here BUT this is where I draw the line. (he removes all the cards and walks off)". He doesn't work there anymore and she seemed impressed with the cards I made so I didn't worry about her NOT giving them out to her clients. I honestly don't know if she does or not. I haven't seen those cards layed out, just the MGM stuff.

I'm happy to get the cards back if she isn't comfortable with it. I thought she was as adamant as I am about promoting genital integrity. Just today I quietly slipped one of those cards on a table next to a very young pregnant mother sitting alone at the Library. My husband hands these cards out too. The first time was at Barns-n-Noble. The man said,"I don't want to circumcise our son but she does. Thanks for the card." I knew the couple was having a boy because I heard them talking about it but I was so terrified to give them the card myself. My husband took it and bravely talked to this couple. This was back when I first made the cards in '04.

Okay, I've had to read this one several times. I still can't get pass the "I really think that your being very critical" part. I know you mean well and your advice is very sound. I'm trying so hard to understand it. Do you really think I'm being critical? .

I wish there was a "one size fits all" message.

Sorry for the long post.

First, about the purple part.... it was a tangent that was really not directed at you at all... it's more of an editorial about what I see happen on this board a lot and it really bugs me. It has nothing to do with your story, I am sorry that was so confusing.

It bothers me a lot when I see ultra-negative comments about people -- so if a mother circs she is stupid, and mainstream doctors are referred to as "not knowing his @ss from is elbow" (an example from this thread), and mothers who don't listen or don't immediately buy into intactness "have blood on their hands" etc. etc. etc. For the short time I have been reading here I see people so eager to call others stupid and butchers etc. etc. etc. I see a lot of snarky logic and comebacks that is meant to belittle people who don't understand intactness. I *really* wish there was a lot less name calling and a lot more compassion and understanding for people who make the mistake of circing, even if they don't understand that they have made a mistake. Every time I asked a mom if she circ'd (because we were having a boy) they sounded sad that they did it, or I should say unenthusiastic. I don't think they are so 'pro-circ" as I think they are going along with what society does. The critics will immediately call these mothers so stupid because they didn't research their decision. I am so frustrated that people are so eager to dump on doctors and parents, and assume the worst of people -- (if the docs can't get em as newborns, they'll intentionally create problems so they can circ later, and, if your husband wants to circ, you better never leave your child alone with him because you can't trust him not to go behind your back to have your son cut.) I've seen dozens of comments here bashing the "others'. I think it's somewhat of an ego trip -- oh, we're so smart and they're so stupid. They're horrible, no-good mothers.

OK, this is a rant, isn't it? I wish there were more compassion all around. Seriously, I think that the negativity and name calling and bad attitudes about people who circ are completely unproductive. I wish the intactivist movement were more loving. As a guy named Dave in another thread said, you catch more flies with honey than vinegar. And I see a lot of vinegar here. I wish that people who end up circing aren't seen as "cut-happy" or anything like that. I think there are few circ pushers, but many others just yet DON'T UNDERSTAND THE PURPOSE OF A FORESKIN AND HAVEN'T YET REALIZED THE HARMS OF CIRC. They are a little slower in coming around. But instead of hating them, I wish people would show more patience and love. I think if people stayed positive, it would be a much nicer experience all around and I think that the movement and this board would be much more productive. Helping, not hating.

I hate the snark because I feel that when a lurker considering intactness swings by and sees bad attitude, it turns them off and reduces the credibility of this board as a valuable resource.

Rant over, whew!

Back to you, I am so impressed with everything you are doing to promote the harms of circ and benefits of intactness. And congrats on helping people keep their sons intact -- that's awesome! I think you are serving as a positive role model and I'm working up the courage to do things like write letters and carry cards soon, so I'd love to learn from you and others about how you are spreading the word and your success stories.

Thanks.
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#23 of 39 Old 07-12-2007, 05:55 PM
 
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It bothers me a lot when I see ultra-negative comments about people -- so if a mother circs she is stupid, and mainstream doctors are referred to as "not knowing his @ss from is elbow" (an example from this thread), and mothers who don't listen or don't immediately buy into intactness "have blood on their hands" etc. etc. etc. For the short time I have been reading here I see people so eager to call others stupid and butchers etc. etc. etc. I see a lot of snarky logic and comebacks that is meant to belittle people who don't understand intactness. I *really* wish there was a lot less name calling and a lot more compassion and understanding for people who make the mistake of circing, even if they don't understand that they have made a mistake. Every time I asked a mom if she circ'd (because we were having a boy) they sounded sad that they did it, or I should say unenthusiastic. I don't think they are so 'pro-circ" as I think they are going along with what society does. The critics will immediately call these mothers so stupid because they didn't research their decision. I am so frustrated that people are so eager to dump on doctors and parents, and assume the worst of people -- (if the docs can't get em as newborns, they'll intentionally create problems so they can circ later, and, if your husband wants to circ, you better never leave your child alone with him because you can't trust him not to go behind your back to have your son cut.) I've seen dozens of comments here bashing the "others'. I think it's somewhat of an ego trip -- oh, we're so smart and they're so stupid. They're horrible, no-good mothers.

OK, this is a rant, isn't it? I wish there were more compassion all around. Seriously, I think that the negativity and name calling and bad attitudes about people who circ are completely unproductive. I wish the intactivist movement were more loving. As a guy named Dave in another thread said, you catch more flies with honey than vinegar. And I see a lot of vinegar here. I wish that people who end up circing aren't seen as "cut-happy" or anything like that. I think there are few circ pushers, but many others just yet DON'T UNDERSTAND THE PURPOSE OF A FORESKIN AND HAVEN'T YET REALIZED THE HARMS OF CIRC. They are a little slower in coming around. But instead of hating them, I wish people would show more patience and love. I think if people stayed positive, it would be a much nicer experience all around and I think that the movement and this board would be much more productive.
You know, I hear what you're saying and I do try to be compassionate. I'm not even one of the more hard-line intactivists, but I know you harbor a lot of remorse and guilt about circing your sons KBecks. And sometimes I think you take our comments about those who circ and advocate circ personally, because at one time that person was you. Understandable.

But you also have to understand our point of view. We've been belittled, called weird, crazy, and loony. We've been told the intact penises of men here and the sons of women who post here are "filthy", "gross", "ugly", "disgusting."

Attempts at "educating" others have been met with hostility and insults. Family members have waged war on intactivists for choosing to keep their sons intact. As much as people try to be nice, don't you think we have feelings too and sometimes we get frustrated and want to hit back?

The "blood on their hands" thing might sound harsh, and I guess in retrospect it might be a little extreme. But it is what it is, those who circumcise and insist on it despite being presented with information that shows otherwise, do ultimately bear responsibility for this. That doesn't mean that I hate them with a passion or that I would not welcome them if they changed their minds later on down the line. Those who circ and regret it later are more than welcome here, as we have welcomed you here KBecks.

But as for the doctors, I feel little pity for them. As medical professionals they should do what's best for their patients and they should know about natural, normal body parts and not encourage the amputation of foreskins. Sorry, but doctors don't have much of an excuse. ESPECIALLY urologists.
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#24 of 39 Old 07-12-2007, 06:11 PM
 
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She can lose another client because she's pro-circ.
I second what she says here. At the birth center I went to for my prenatals (for all of my three kiddos) I KNOW that they would lose many clients if they had pro-circ stuff out there. No doubt in my mind, as I know three women off the top of my head would be highly offended and either choose the other birth center in town or an independant homebirth midwife (they do homebirths there and a lot of clients do that option as I have).

THANKFULLY they are all pro-intact there, all the midwives. In fact, the CNM who works there even convinced her husband not to circ, though it was part of his religion. She was outspoken about that, as was another birth attendant there, who told me her experience with intact men was *enough* convincing before she heard all the other stuff. She's a lot more experienced than anyone else I've met and had quite a bit to compare to(maybe I'll come back in another life and be so lberal like that LOL).

Perpetually breastfeeding or pregnant ENFP mom to a lot of kids...wife to a midwestern nice guy...living in tropical paradise...pink cats and homebirths rock!

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#25 of 39 Old 07-12-2007, 06:28 PM
 
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But you also have to understand our point of view. We've been belittled, called weird, crazy, and loony. We've been told the intact penises of men here and the sons of women who post here are "filthy", "gross", "ugly", "disgusting."

Attempts at "educating" others have been met with hostility and insults. Family members have waged war on intactivists for choosing to keep their sons intact. As much as people try to be nice, don't you think we have feelings too and sometimes we get frustrated and want to hit back?
Of course it's frustrating, of course it's emotional. But hitting back is counter productive (and the pacifists among us especially should respect that). I like to think that there is always hope that the "pro-circ" person of today is the "intactivist" of tomorrow. People who think intact penises are unclean and unappealing aren't necessarily as pro-circ as they are UNDERINFORMED. Seriously. Even doctors. But if they're personally attacked, then the chances really aren't that good.

It's also the way an intactivist approaches a person. There are the gentle caring approaches and there are whack you over the head with how stupid circ is approaches. And shades in between.

I care a lot about effective persuasion and messages. And I believe the negativity often drives people away.

Let's talk about effectiveness with the OP's midwife. So the midwife seems conflicted about how to find balance between circ and intact info. Why write her off when there's a chance she might come around to a more balanced position? She's had a setback of a few lost clients and she's concerned about offending patients. But if the poster here can work with the midwife to at least keep that intact info out along with the circ info, it could be a step forward and help babies. I think it makes sense to *try* to work with people before writing them off and labeling them as horrendous.
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#26 of 39 Old 07-12-2007, 07:43 PM
 
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I think, kbecks, that you need to hang around on a few debate boards for a while to see the meaning of "horrendous".

People who still circ, or promote it as a choice, despite being educated, deserve everything that gets thrown at them. Doctors and medical professionals especially, because it is their DUTY to be up to date on information, and ignorance of basic anatomy is NOT excusable.

Still, there are likely to be more lawsuits in future, as word gets out and the damaged men start suing their circumcisers. When that happens and it gets to be financially risky, the medical profession over there will stop promoting it, as happened over here (and other places).
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#27 of 39 Old 07-12-2007, 07:56 PM
 
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I still think that lawsuits years from now is a generally unproductive tactic, compared to compassionate education *today*. I also think that people generally don't respond well to threats, and a doc threatened with a lawsuit 18 years from now would a) resent being threatened, b) not take it very seriously, as it's such a long time in the future and c) avoid future pro-intact messages.

Personally, I want to write letters to my OB and his colleagues, and the hospitals I have delivered at, to promote intactness.

ETA: I've seen a lot of ugly talk on the internet, btw. It doesn't change my view that *any* negativity and hate takes away from real education and reaching out to others.
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#28 of 39 Old 07-12-2007, 08:10 PM
 
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On the contrary, medical professionals and others respond very well to financial threats and threats of litigation, especially over there - this is the only reason that consent is now obtained, before the 1970s lawsuit that changed it, babies were just chopped without consent in the hospital and brought to their mothers already done.

There have already been some lawsuits with positive outcomes for intactness, and the medical insurance companies are not blind to what has been going on. If they get the idea that certain practices being carried out now, are going to cost them dear in the future, the premiums are going to skyrocket, which will hit the doctors doing the circs in the pocket right now.

I think this will all end when it gets to be too financially expensive for doctors to risk doing it.
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#29 of 39 Old 07-12-2007, 10:35 PM
 
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The following is a link to American College of Nurse-Midwives who have added circumcision as an expanded midwifery practice procedure: :

http://www.acnm.org/siteFiles/educat...ision_2.06.pdf

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#30 of 39 Old 07-13-2007, 09:37 AM
 
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I still think that lawsuits years from now is a generally unproductive tactic, compared to compassionate education *today*. I also think that people generally don't respond well to threats, and a doc threatened with a lawsuit 18 years from now would a) resent being threatened, b) not take it very seriously, as it's such a long time in the future and c) avoid future pro-intact messages.
I don't know that threatening lawsuits "18 years from now" will gain much attention, however I know several cases where the thread of lawsuits have created change.

In cases when little boys were being forcefully retracted, a letter from the correct "legal" source can often motivate office staffers to "get educated" quickly.

Additionally, my SIL's pediatrician would not do a circumcision (this is according to what she told us) as his practice had been sued and no longer would perform them. She drove very far and spent $400 to find a doctor to have his done do he would match Daddy (this obviously before I knew about circ...though my mom tells me she spoke to her about it and she blew her off).

All I can say from this is that loss of money is probably the greatest motivater in medicine. My brother chose his field of medicine based on malpractice insurance costs (he's very vocal about that). He makes the majority of decisions based on money, and I know plenty of other doctors (have quite a few who are family/friends of the family) who think the same way.

I'm also married to a lawyer, so I have that perspective as well.

(I still contemplate medical school here, though I am pretty disenchanted with allopathic medicine as a whole...another story alltogether...)

Perpetually breastfeeding or pregnant ENFP mom to a lot of kids...wife to a midwestern nice guy...living in tropical paradise...pink cats and homebirths rock!

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