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#61 of 85 Old 08-03-2007, 05:00 AM
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http://www.udonet.com/circumcision/v...ty_of_men.html

There's why your husband wants to. That's exactly why.

Long distance Mom to boarding school superstars E (9) and Layne (6).
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#62 of 85 Old 08-03-2007, 09:24 AM
 
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I haven't re-read all the posts, but I haven't seen anyone attacking your husband.

Please, read this article that Fi. just posted. It's very important.

No matter how your dh feels about his penis, whether he loves being circed, hates being circed, or is indifferent, keep in mind that this is not your dh's penis that's up for discussion -- and modification -- it's your son's. Your dh may think being circed is the greatest thing since sliced bread, and since he already is circed, maybe that's a good thing for him.

But his feelings about his penis are just that, feelings. They are valid, but they are not the basis for a decision about how your son's penis should look and whether you should cut off half the skin system and half the nerve endings of your son's penis. Your son's penis is part of his body and no one else will ever know what it's like to be inside his body. Certainly your dh won't.

Just as you can't avoid apologizing to ds #1 if/when the subject comes up, you can't make your dh feel better about himself by agreeing to circumcise ds#2. That's not your job. Your job is to protect your son from unnecessary bodily modifications that harm him and benefit no one.

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#63 of 85 Old 08-03-2007, 10:34 AM
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Case in point here, I've got a friend who's barely out of high school. Great guy, never really thought twice about circumcision until he met me. Why? Because of my son, of course.

Then he started thinking about it and looking into it. Gears started turning. He's found out what he's missing and hates it. It makes him feel sad, maybe even a bit angry, that his parents stuck their noses into his sex life before he could even protest. This could be your son...and of course it may not be. But why take that gamble when the only people who can lose isn't even you isn't you and your husband...it's your son and his wife (or husband). What's going on in your bed is fine and dandy with you right? No need to stick your nose in someone else's sex life because of your own personal preferences.

In terms of "locker room" - I'd rather explain to my kids why I *didn't* cut a piece off of him ("that's how you were born, it's normal and healthy") and that's why they look different as opposed to explaining why I *did* cut a piece off of them ("we liked the way it looks/everyone else is doing it").

And I'll end my post with this absolutely awesome quote:

"...The poorest argument of all for circumcision, yet the most popular is that everyone is doing it. The same mothers who will someday ask their sons "if all your friends jumped off of a bridge, would you do it too?" are lining up on a bridge of their own and taking their sons with them...."
http://www.bmezine.com/ritual/A30101/cltcircu.html

Honestly, like Quirky said...only your son is going to know how he feels about his body and his penis as an adult. If he really does hate his foreskin at least he can choose to remove it (with proper pain killer, without a wound sitting in a dirty diaper, and he can get the style of cut that he wants)...what's gonna happen if he wants it back? He'll be in the same boat as my friend up there.

Long distance Mom to boarding school superstars E (9) and Layne (6).
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#64 of 85 Old 08-03-2007, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Quirky View Post
I haven't re-read all the posts, but I haven't seen anyone attacking your husband.

Please, read this article that Fi. just posted. It's very important.

No matter how your dh feels about his penis, whether he loves being circed, hates being circed, or is indifferent, keep in mind that this is not your dh's penis that's up for discussion -- and modification -- it's your son's. Your dh may think being circed is the greatest thing since sliced bread, and since he already is circed, maybe that's a good thing for him.

But his feelings about his penis are just that, feelings. They are valid, but they are not the basis for a decision about how your son's penis should look and whether you should cut off half the skin system and half the nerve endings of your son's penis. Your son's penis is part of his body and no one else will ever know what it's like to be inside his body. Certainly your dh won't.

Just as you can't avoid apologizing to ds #1 if/when the subject comes up, you can't make your dh feel better about himself by agreeing to circumcise ds#2. That's not your job. Your job is to protect your son from unnecessary bodily modifications that harm him and benefit no one.
:

Quirky said it perfectly. Please listen to her. And read the article Fi posted. That one is NOT to show your dh. It's just for YOU to read and think about. Here's another article for just you:

http://www.noharmm.org/feminist.htm



Enjoy the wedding.

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#65 of 85 Old 08-03-2007, 11:27 AM
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And we've all tried to say it, but let me say it again:

you don't have to make the same decision again. It's ok to make a different decision.

I've changed my mind on vaxes. I used to be so pro-vax it wasn't even funny. Now I'm anti-vax. My daughter got the whole range of shots....everything that was available for kids. My son hasn't, because I learned more in the interim. It's really ok, and actually responsible, to make new parenting decisions based on new information.

The son inside you is NOT a clone of his father or his brother. Don't treat him like one.

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#66 of 85 Old 08-03-2007, 12:10 PM
 
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Originally Posted by ndunn View Post
Just on the subject of pediophilia & abuse....


Sexual Assult (wikipedia): Sexual assault is any physical contact of a sexual nature without voluntary consent. Sexual assault can take place by anyone and anywhere. While associated with rape, sexual assault is much broader and the specifics may vary according to social, political or legal definition.

Circumcision: Handing your child over to a stranger when they are a tender few days old (and should not even leave your arms) to be strapped down on a cold surface and have part of their genitals touched, ripped open, and sliced off.

I don't know about anyone else, but apart from the actual "sex" part of sexual assult, I don't see a huge difference.
I don't see ANY difference. What about when the doctor stimulates the penis so that it becomes erect so he/she knows how much skin to cut off. So baby's very first sexual arousal happens because the doctor wants to know how much skin to lop off.
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#67 of 85 Old 08-03-2007, 12:33 PM
 
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Originally Posted by motherearthdancer View Post
I feel like if we don't circ. son #2 then we should be appologising for what we did to son #1, but if we do circ. #2 then we are being labeled as terrible people, abusive people...etc.
I've been reading this thread since the beginning. What I'm really having a hard to with is this section I've quoted. What I can't stop thinking about is the conversation you will inevitably be having in the future. I don't understand why you circ. ds1. But in my thought it goes a little like this.

you and dh "ds1 we are sorry we circ. you as a baby. We did the research and knew it was not a good thing, but we did it anyway because-(fill in the blank)-.
DS2 we still knew it wasn't a good thing to do, but we did it to you anyway so ds1 wouldn't be alone"


That conversation alone would be enough to keep me from making the same mistake again.

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#68 of 85 Old 08-03-2007, 12:35 PM
 
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I don't see ANY difference. What about when the doctor stimulates the penis so that it becomes erect so he/she knows how much skin to cut off. So baby's very first sexual arousal happens because the doctor wants to know how much skin to lop off.
I have not heard that before. Do you have a link to some info about that? I'd like to add it to my files.

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#69 of 85 Old 08-03-2007, 01:02 PM
 
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I don't see ANY difference. What about when the doctor stimulates the penis so that it becomes erect so he/she knows how much skin to cut off. So baby's very first sexual arousal happens because the doctor wants to know how much skin to lop off.
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I have not heard that before. Do you have a link to some info about that? I'd like to add it to my files.

Yes me too!!! If thats true, it makes a lot of sense, (I don't know why I didn't think about this before ) that is so sick SICK SICK sick sick sick!!!!:Puke
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#70 of 85 Old 08-03-2007, 01:07 PM
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I have just pm'd you some very good info. Please feel free to ask any questions.
yulia
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#71 of 85 Old 08-03-2007, 02:10 PM
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I have not heard that before. Do you have a link to some info about that? I'd like to add it to my files.
I've heard it before, several times. I don't have a link for you, though.

"Our task is not to see the future, but to enable it."
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#72 of 85 Old 08-03-2007, 02:43 PM
 
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I haven't read the entire thread but I did see this:



You are more than welcomed to email my husband - his circumcision and sex was absolutely FINE (even had some "extra" skin) until he had a penile growth spurt...then his erections were so tight that on several occations his penis split open (about an inch long section just tore open). The skin would also stretch so tight that even if it didn't tear, half or more of his penis was numb. Sex? God sex was miserable...no matter how much lube was used there was so much friction, chafing, and even some vaginal tearing/bleeding.

My mother in law should have kept her aesthetic preferences out of our bed and off of someone else's body. If you like cut penises, fine. But your son or his wife/husband may not feel the same way in 20/30 years...especially if he stays in California where only 30% of other penises his age are that way.
I agree. Ask my son, if you'd like.

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#73 of 85 Old 08-03-2007, 02:52 PM
 
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Well, since you said it was okay to talk about you, I hope you don't mind bringing this point up.

You find your range of birth choices important to you. You have been stressed out because of insurance problems. You have been unsure of what OB you'll end up with at the time of birth, and you don't want to end up with someone who will push a c-section on you because of your GD diagnosis and previous birth history, right? You want the freedom to choose how you birth. You want the freedom to birth vaginally, right? Or at least attempt it, free of complication-ridden interventions.

Now, I don't know why you personally don't want a repeat c-sec. Some people have no problem with them. Most doctors have no problem with them. Society in general will look at you like you're crazy for caring. But I'm guessing you don't like the surgery, the recovery and the inherent risks that come with giving birth by c-sec.

Now, why is okay for YOU, as an adult, to CHOOSE how you birth, to CHOOSE to avoid surgery, yet you don't know if you can give your SON, who is helpless and voiceless and powerless any choice of his OWN to avoid a *wholly* unnecessary surgery. What is harmed by letting him choose in his own time. You could educate him on all these cultural nuances that are so fascinating to you, and have long discussions over the meaning of the act, and then let him get circ'ed or not when he is an adult.

I guess what is bothering me about your posts is that you are taking everyone into account except your unborn child, and yet it is his body that will be affected. You don't answer why you think the choice should not be his. You write as though his feelings about his body are irrelevant, like you and, by extension, your family and all of society, own his body.

But you don't. The truth of it, when you clear your head of all the noise about "Well regardless of whether it is right or wrong, the decision HAS been placed in the hands of the parents" (which is not true - if you did nothing he can decide later for HIMSELF), is that it is HIS body. Yes, you will have to take care of him when he is little. Doesn't mean you can do whatever you want to him.

Maybe when you get back you can write more on why you feel you have more of a right to his body than he does, and why you feel circumcision has to be done to him in infancy when he can't tell you one way or the other what he would prefer. You seem to value your intellect, yet you are considering preemptively denying him the opportunity to use his own on this matter. I just don't get that and it weighs on me, I feel so bad for your unborn son. I would never want such a horrible thing decided for me.

Mom to DD ('06) and DS ('08)
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#74 of 85 Old 08-03-2007, 03:05 PM
 
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Originally Posted by carriebft View Post
'Old Tradition' in your family:
-pain
-loss of flesh
-loss of sensation
-risks of infection, death, buried penis, webbed penis, trapped penis, adhesions, meatal stenosis, tight erections, scarring, etc
-infant strapped down to plastic board
-wound care

'New Tradition' in your family:
-gentle welcome to the world
-no pain or suffering
-no wound care
-no wondering if his cries are for the pain from a wound you inflicted for no medical reason
-a whole body, just the way he was intended to be




Some great posts here.

One point I want to cover:
If your mother had wanted you circumcised, it would already have been done by now. You would have grown into adulthood accustomed to your own personal mishmash of scar tissue (how much is left and how well it functions based on the skill and attention and personal preference of the "care provider" she chose)
You would have heard words like clitoris and labia and wondered about them. Eventually you would have seen a diagram of an intact woman's genitalia, and puzzled over the ways your body didn't match the picture- and which parts did.
You would wonder whether the pain you experienced at times were normal, whether you would experience more pleasure if you had not been modified as a child... and you would decide whether to accept it as a done deal or to spend some time angry and frustrated about it.

Some parents do end up having to tell their children, When DS1 was born, we thought we made the right choice- but by the time DS2 was born, we learned more and decided to keep him intact.
I'd rather have to say that than... we were on the fence, but still kept doing it.

If I had to get cosmetic surgery, I'd want the final say in what part got modified and how.
I know a number of people who've gotten tattoos and piercings as a part of their healing process after having been assaulted or abused. They say that having something extreme done to their bodies that they chose for themselves is healing, because of the contrast between chosen suffering and the pain and shame they experienced at the hands of their attackers/abusers.
Men sure do get a lot of tattoos in this country!
I wonder whether there's a correlation? Any studies on the subject?

There are plenty of men who, to put it mildly, regret the loss they suffered as babies. I'm not sure what the rule is about linking to other discussion boards, but there is a man on tribe.net in the anti-circ tribe whose rage is kind of frightening. We're pretty much trying to talk him down from obsessing with revenge fantasies. It breaks my heart.

The bottom line for me is: His body, his choice.

Best wishes

DIYer mama to DD 11/00 and DS 6/05- both intact, naturally!
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#75 of 85 Old 08-03-2007, 03:09 PM
 
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Okay, so please don't get mad at me...but I wanted to hear if anyone else was in the same situation. Since we found out we were having a son, we had a terrible time debating whether or not to circ. We did lots of research and for a long time I felt like we wouldn't do it. I was always against it, but I still felt that, being a woman, it was something my husband should have a say in. We talked about it for what seems like forever. We did lots of research. My husband is not a brutal man, he is very gentle and a pacifist. So ultimately I told my husband that I would support whatever decision he made. We ended up circ. our first son. My son did cry during the procedure, but he nursed afterwards and we never had any problems since. (hes 2.5 years old now)

Now we are 30 weeks pregnant with our 2nd son and facing the same decision. Ultimately our 1st decision did come down to whether or not we wanted our son to "look" like his father, but it wasn't that my dh HAD to have it that way. He said that as for his own experience, being circ. was something he never regreted. The only insecurity I can even think of is that, we were worried about him not being circ. and then asking daddy questions about it and feeling different. Okay, before people start pointing out all the proof that this woud not be so...please know that we knew that and know that, but the emotional aspect of it is so pulling its hard to see when everyone else you know is circ, or those that you know who are intact...well, those people that we know who are intact, are not the kind of parents that we are. We are very "natural" in other aspects..such as babywearing, extended breastfeeding, cloth diapering, gentle disapline..etc.

I am confused because we haven't made any concrete decisions regarding what we plan on doing and probably wont until the baby gets here. I don't want to be seen as a monster parent no matter what I decide. I feel like if we don't circ. son #2 then we should be appologising for what we did to son #1, but if we do circ. #2 then we are being labeled as terrible people, abusive people...etc. Its a lot of pressure for a person to deal with. I wouldn't say that I regret circ. son number one, b/c we haven't had any problems and he is a happy kid, and was a happy baby. I do know people who decided to circ. as an adult and wish they had it done as a kid, and I know people who wish they hadn't circ. at all. So again, I'm torn between my relationships with these people and the decisions we feel pressured to make. Also, I know my husband will support my feelings on it,I just felt that he knew better than I about boys which is why I said I'd support whatever decision he made. He's had his doubts about it, but we can't change the past...and I still do stand by what I said, and I do support him. Now this doesn't mean that we feel "good" about having to make the decision by any means. Its obviously something that is eating away at us since we found out we are expecting another boy.

I'm not pro circ. and I'm not against it since it is something that 2 of the boys in my life have had to deal with, and seem to be okay with (except in the debating aspect in my husbands case...he is very much torn about the issue in general) I just don't want to get yelled at, we are already beating ourselves up enough over this and I just want to know if I'm alone in feeling this way. I wouldn't say its regret b/c after its done its done and we really had no bad experience with it. I'd really like to hear from moms who circ one of their boys and decided not to with the 2nd.
I want to offer some hugs, it is a very difficult and emotional decision, especially when you are dealing with worry about what to do.

I circed both my sons, and I wish I hadn't circ'd at all. If I have another boy, I will not circ.

I think if your answer is not an enthusiastic "yes", then you are better off not doing it. So if you cannot feel enthusiastically like you need to circ your son (and realistically, what evidence is there that for that view?) then you will probably be happier choosing not to do it.

I'm pleased that your first son is coping well with being circed, as are my boys. But I thank God for that, and I'm not certain that no issues will come up later in life. I truly believe that leaving the baby as God and nature made him is a perfect way to go.

Lastly, I think it's true that the decision truly should belong to your son when he's an adult.

More hugs and I hope that you are able to choose to have an intact son and feel great about it. PM me if you ever want need someone to listen or chat with.

Karen
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#76 of 85 Old 08-03-2007, 03:09 PM
 
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paphia, fantastic points.

(I took so long writing mine, I didn't see yours until I was done.

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#77 of 85 Old 08-03-2007, 03:32 PM
 
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motherearthdancer, I've read through the entire thread, and what I'm seeing from you is this:

DH and I circumcised our first son, and we are considering circumcising our next son, because we really can't come up with a good reason not to.

But what happens if you take a step back, and look at it from the opposite persoective: You will give birth to a normal, healthy, perfect baby boy. He has no medical concerns at all. He is nursing like a champ, and content unless he is hungry or wet (two needs which are easily met).

He does not NEED an operation. There is nothing wrong with him. Instead of thinking "Why shouldn't I sign him up for an operation?" you should be asking yourself "Why SHOULD I?"

You strike me as someone who does not take medical intervention lightly. Will your son get his tonsils out before he gets his first sore throat? Will he get tubes in his ears before he ever has an ear infection? Of course not - because those operations, while relatively simple ones, are still unnecessary surgery.

How much more unnecessary is it to amputate a part of your son's body that is much less likely to cause him problems than his throat or his ears, and alter the appearance of a body part that very few people will ever actually see?

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#78 of 85 Old 08-03-2007, 04:49 PM
 
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I've heard it before, several times. I don't have a link for you, though.
I'll look for a link when I can look without throwing up. I'll have to sift through the links.
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#79 of 85 Old 08-03-2007, 04:54 PM
 
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I'll look for a link when I can look without throwing up. I'll have to sift through the links.
No I can't imagine that would be a pleasant one to search for. But if you do find it, it would be much appreciated. Anything we can get to help show people just how reprehensible circ is, is a good thing.

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#80 of 85 Old 08-03-2007, 05:52 PM
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I feel like if we don't circ. son #2 then we should be appologising for what we did to son #1...
You did a horrible mistake and, in my opinion, if you respect your son at all, you will have to tell him the truth and apologize to him anyway. but at least you could say to him that you really thought it was in his best interests. And what are you going to say #2 if you circ him? That you decided to amputate a healthy important part of his body just because you didn't want to apologize to #1 for the mistake you've done : .

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Originally Posted by motherearthdancer View Post
...but if we do circ. #2 then we are being labeled as terrible people, abusive people...etc...
well, you said it yourself. if this is what your heart tells you than it must be very much true!
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#81 of 85 Old 08-10-2007, 04:33 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Everyone makes such good points. I do appreicate it. I'm really glad everyone took so much time to reply. At this point I'm just too tired to comment. I have lots of things going on and I may step away from the boards for a while just because I'm feeling too overwhelmed by information at this point. I do want to say that I have taken my son into consideration, and just because I chose to state opposing reasoning does not mean that we are planning on circ. If anything we are more likely not to, but even if we don't, I don't feel like its something we will ever bring up with people again. People have been really kind in their responses, but some have not and it really does make me not want to talk about it with anyone anymore. I'm probably just being hormonal again, but even if we don't circ our son (which we probably wont) I don't think I want to have people judging me or laying my friendship on the line based upon whether or not they agree with the issue or not. I understand why people wouldn't want to be friends with someone who decided to circ. when its such a hot button issue/personal issue, but in a way, I couldn't not be friends with those people I know who have circ. their sons based only on that single decision. Again, I understand why people would decide that, but that kind of sickens me in much the same way the circ. issue sickens anti-circ people in general. So thank you again for the information and allowing me to discuss it here. It was a great discussion and I learned a lot.
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#82 of 85 Old 08-10-2007, 04:40 PM
 
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I think you misunderstand many who say they would no longer be friends. For me personally, I feel that the kind of person who would take all the information and still perform genital cutting on their son is not a person I can be near. They hurt their child, with knowledge and willing. They would not be the person I thought they were (speaking here of people who are my friends right now-- if they cut their child despite having it all laid out to them, they would be destroying everything I thought I knew about them).

That may sicken you, but such a grostesque change in one of my friends, from a compassionate person who would never knowingly and willingly cause pain to child for nontheraputic/medical purposes to one who WOULD do that is extremely alarming to me. It would sicken me to know I had hung out with such a person for so long, shared so much with them...and then they change like that.

"Parents are simply trustees; they do not own the bodies of their children"-Norm Cohen  Martial arts instructor intactlact.gifhomebirth.jpgnak.gif and mom to 4: DD1 (1/05) DS (7/06) DD2 (5/08) DD3 (2/11)
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#83 of 85 Old 08-10-2007, 07:01 PM
 
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People judge people everyday in many ways. Everyone has their own yard stick, so-to-speak, for how to judge anothers character.

Religion
Political affilation
Parenting style (mgm)
Human Rights (mgm)

You may not agree with those who use mgm to help determine good or bad character, but then they may not agree with you on the ways YOU define good or bad character.
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#84 of 85 Old 08-10-2007, 07:38 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Quirky View Post
Your son's body is his own. It belongs to him. He is not your property. You should not mark him as slaveowners brand their slaves in the name of perpetuating some misguided notion of tradition.

To do so, knowing what you know now about circumcision, would be beyond wrong. It would be an act of supreme hubris, demonstrating your power and control over your son's body at the weakest and most vulnerable time of his life, and it would be an act of deliberate ignorance, knowingly and willfully turning a blind eye to the harm that circumcision WILL cause your son whether or not he suffers any complications. It would be an act of deliberate harm to your son, and your excuse of "tradition" would be a thin fig leaf indeed.


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#85 of 85 Old 08-10-2007, 11:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kldliam View Post
People judge people everyday in many ways. Everyone has their own yard stick, so-to-speak, for how to judge anothers character.

Religion
Political affilation
Parenting style (mgm)
Human Rights (mgm)

You may not agree with those who use mgm to help determine good or bad character, but then they may not agree with you on the ways YOU define good or bad character.
:

"Our task is not to see the future, but to enable it."
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