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#1 of 171 Old 08-15-2007, 07:09 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I have two sons that are circumcised and I just had a third son. My husband and I are in debate over the circumcision...and at this point he is so frustrated with me that he is "throwing his hands up". I have done ALL the research I can possibly do. The last day that my insurance will pay for the procedure is at the end of this week, so we have to make a decision. I wanted to ask you fellow mothers about the long term effects of NOT circing. I have been so distraught by this decision that I have been emotionally a mess and I can't even eat.

While I now know all of the effects of circing...I am concerned on the last leg about how my boy will grow up being the minority. Can you guys tell me how your boys were affected by being different? Did they want to be circed later? Please help me here....the clock is ticking.
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#2 of 171 Old 08-15-2007, 07:33 PM
 
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Where do you live?

I live in the east coast, and I wasn't circumcised and I never had any problems. Medically or socially.

There are no "long-term" effects of not circing. That's the norm, the default. That's like asking what of the long-term effects of not removing your eyelids.
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#3 of 171 Old 08-15-2007, 07:33 PM
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I wanted to ask you fellow mothers about the long term effects of NOT circing.
Um, there are no negative ones. At all. Are you having negative affects because of your foreskin as an adult? No? It's pretty likely your son won't either.

Quote:
I am concerned on the last leg about how my boy will grow up being the minority. Can you guys tell me how your boys were affected by being different? Did they want to be circed later?
While most of us have boys too young to answer these, I can talk to you about a survey I read...I'm not positive where it was from and I want to say Men's Health but I can't for sure.

Of the respondants who were cut, about 20% were unhappy with it (extremely high for a cosmetic surgery). Of the guys who weren't cut, 3% were unhappy with it.

The difference between the two groups? The intact guys have the freedom to do something about it if they feel so inclined that doesn't involve years of wearing a device on their penis for a mere facsimile.

Answer me this: How does your son having a foreskin affect YOU. It doesn't. It affects HIM for his entire life.

Trust me, as someone who suffered for over 6 years because of my mother in law deciding to butt in her son's sex life, I can tell you this - stay out of your son and his future partner's bed.

ETA:

Answer me this too: Would you remove your daughters foreskin? Yep, girls have them too. And they have smegma and "higher HIV risks" just like a boys. And some think the vaginal area looks nicer without a foreskin. Does that make you want to run out and circumcise a female child? If not, then maybe you should question why you want to do the same thing to a male child.

Also with the circumcision rate (nationally) below 60% (below 30% on the west coast) your kid won't be alone. At all.

And there's plenty of threads on how to explain why brothers are different.

Long distance Mom to boarding school superstars E (9) and Layne (6).
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#4 of 171 Old 08-15-2007, 07:36 PM
 
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Depends where you are, but from what I hear, intact boys are NOT in the minority in many states now, rates are around 50% overall. So any child being spared circ these days will certainly not be alone.
I'm in the UK so it does not really apply to us, circ is virtually unheard of. But physically certainly my boys have no problems with being intact. Men over here aren't queuing up to get disease ridden foreskins cut off.

I would say that there are FAR more long term consequences of circing than not circing and they are far more important than the locker room. http://www.circumstitions.com/Complic.html
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#5 of 171 Old 08-15-2007, 07:39 PM
 
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Since 80% of the worlds population is intact and almost 50% of those are in the USA (if you live here) your ds will not really be in the minority.

Please leave your little one intact he deserves the right to enjoy his whole body.

Like a pp said there are no down sides to being intact. It is how men were supposed to be made or they wouldnt be born with a foreskin.

Your dh will get over it and ask him if he ever set down and compaired genitals with his dad. I bet the answer will be no. And if it comes up with your other ds's then you explain to them that you thought you were doing what was right at the time but now you know it was wrong and appologize to them.

You said you have done all the research you can do. Have you watched the video linked to here what circ is like?
Have you learned that to preform the circ the dr actually stimulates a erection to do the cut? So the boys first sexual experiance is with this stranger?
Have you learned that the foreskin is fused to the head of the penis like the fingernail is to the nail bed and has to be ripped apart?
Have you learned that 10% of boys who are circed have complications that need surgery later?
Have you learned that no anesthesia is used?
Have you learned that it isnt your body to cut on?
It belongs to your son no one else has the right to do cosmetic surgery on him.


Your dh will get over it mine has and if he dosnt then he isnt the man you thought he was. I dont mean any of the above to be snarky they are facts and I want you to know them if you dont already. I have to assume you dont know them or you wouldnt still be considering doing this to your helpless newborn.

to you and I will pray you make the right decision.

 
SAHMlady.gifread.giflovin' trekkie.giffan intactivist.gifwinner.jpg to loveeyes.gifenergy.gifDD 10/00 & superhero.gifmoon.gifDS 10/04 ribbonpb.gifIf your ds is intact, keep him safe, visit the Case Against Circ forumnocirc.gifCirc, a personal choice, Your sonsyes.gifbrokenheart.gif11/98brokenheart.gif6/99ribbonbrown.gifanti-tobaccoribbonyellow.gifThyroid cancer survivor. With cat.gif& goldfish.gif & (Boxer)dog2.gif wishing 4 whale.gif&ribbonwhite.gifsigncirc1.gifselectivevax.gifdelayedvax.gif

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#6 of 171 Old 08-15-2007, 07:57 PM
 
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Originally Posted by TryingMyBest View Post
I am concerned on the last leg about how my boy will grow up being the minority. Can you guys tell me how your boys were affected by being different? Did they want to be circed later? Please help me here....the clock is ticking.
80% of the world's men are intact...circ'd is the minority!
My husband is circ'd, all of our boys are intact. They've never asked him about why he is "different" since little boy penises (intact or cut) don't look anything like adult penises. As for comparing with siblings, my boys do that even though they're all intact: the oldest has a very tight short foreskin, the middle is partly retractable with a long foreskin he likes to play with and stretch like taffy, and the baby actually looks quite long compared to his brothers and already retracts somewhat when he handles his own penis. At least you'll be able to give a concrete reason why they look different, I just have to pull the old "everybody's different" card.
No way should you circ him now that you are more educated about it!

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#7 of 171 Old 08-15-2007, 08:47 PM
 
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Please read this thread....

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=728522


Alot of people share their stories on "minority" status here:

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...light=matching

I applaude you for finding the courage to embrace the notion that your son will be born perfect. I will bet you that he will not only thank you for leaving his body alone, but he will be happy that you "gave him" the gift of genital integrity.
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#8 of 171 Old 08-15-2007, 09:08 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I am still reading the answers..there are so many so fast! I really appreciate you guys getting back to me so quick. I didn't write very much about myself or my family in the original post but will after I am done reading. The only thing I want to beg of you when you reply is PLEASE PLEASE be sensitive to how I feel right now. I pulled my son off of the circumstraint in the hospital at the last minute strictly on maternal instinct and a strange gut wrenching desire to climb out of my skin and go to him....

I didn't know ANYTHING about circumsion other than that I had two circed boys before that. This is all BRAND NEW to me...and as you can imagine...it's odd to stomach all of it. I have literally tortured myself by listening to the their screams online..knowing how bad the guilt would riddle me but searching for the therapeutic push to make this decision. I want to have support with this last niggling concern. I am scared to death that my son will say...WOW Mom, thanks SO much for not circumcising me...dripping with sarcasm. I am afraid that he will just want to be like everyone else but be too old to want to do the surgery because it IS such an undertaking for an older person.

These are my fears. It has nothing to do with the locker room. It has to do with accountability for his future feelings. He might not like being intact...as he might not like being circed. I know that a boy can decide later to be circed..but the truth is most don't. That can either be by satisfaction (I HOPE!!!) or fear of the procedure.

Anyway, please just remember that I am here....and literally I have been torn up and crying for days...over this. I can't handle being chastised for coming for help, KWIM? Sent with love...thank you again!
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#9 of 171 Old 08-15-2007, 09:19 PM
 
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mama if your son is raised knowing what the foreskin is and why he still has his I doubt very seriously he will ever be upset about being intact. I intend to tell both my ds and dd how lucky they are to be intact and let them both know the valuable function of the foreskin.

Education goes a very long way in how a person feels about themselves no matter what the issue is. Many mom's here have had to explain to a older son why their younger brother is different and had to appologize for having them cut.

Many mom's here have grown sons who were taught growing up about the foreskin and are very thankful that they still have theirs.

I would rather have my ds come to me and ask why he was still intact than have him come to me and ask why I cut part of his penis off and took away his right to choose.

If someone is so upset about being intact they will have it done but like I said before if they know growing up how valuable the foreskin is they will never choose to have a procedure that will forever deminish their sex lives. The main thing about having it done as a adult is they can have the right pain relief and they dont have to sit with a open wound in pee and poo. A baby goes thru just as much pain as a adult only they cant tell you about it. Some say well it dosnt matter because they cant remember but everything that ever happens to us stays in our brain somewere and even if it isnt a contious memory it affects our lives.

I am so sorry that you are having a hard time with this and I honestly didnt mean in my pp to imply you were bad in any way or to criticize you. I just want you to know that you will be doing the very best thing for your son by leaving him intact.

That took real courage to go with your gut instinct and save your ds at the hospital. What it all comes down to is your mama bear is telling you this is wrong and going with that. We were given these instincts for a reason. Rely on them and you can never go wrong.

 
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#10 of 171 Old 08-15-2007, 09:22 PM
 
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Mama

I PM'd you some stuff
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#11 of 171 Old 08-15-2007, 09:31 PM
 
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Originally Posted by TryingMyBest View Post
I pulled my son off of the circumstraint in the hospital at the last minute strictly on maternal instinct and a strange gut wrenching desire to climb out of my skin and go to him....
Wow, good for you listening to your gut! It must have been hard being surrounded by people who wanted to cut your son.
I agree that if he really (I doubt) wants to be circ'd later in his adult life he can, and he can have proper pain relief. But restoring a removed foreskin is a very very long process, also uncomfortable, and still doesn't equal the real thing. You are most definitely doing the right thing by leaving the choice up to him someday when he is a consenting adult. Right now the surgery would be painful cosmetic surgery on an unconsenting minor; later as an adult I'm sure he will understand the difference and why you made the choice you did for him.

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#12 of 171 Old 08-15-2007, 09:51 PM
 
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Just three words: DON'T DO IT.

You know the consequence and pain of having it done. Trust your initial instinct!!!!

I wish I had listened to my gut when my (now 4 year old) son was born!! I came here to post a question because he's complaining that his penis hurts, and I saw your post and had to respond!!! I pray my son's circumcision doesn't have complications!! You, on the other hand, don't have to worry that your son will have painful erections or worse. Babies can die on the circ table too, as I'm sure you're incredibly aware. Why in blazes would you risk it? For social standing???? Teach him to strongly shun social trend because they're often dangerous.

If anything, you'll be explaining to your circ'd boys why you made the mistake of having them cut!! You can't take back a circumcision; but he can always have it done in the future if he really wants to. Leave it be, and let him make the choice later in life....PLEASE.

(I know you won't do it. PM me if you need to.)

WARNING: The comments and opinions expressed above do not necessarily reflect those of the community in which I reside; or those of the internet parenting network.
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#13 of 171 Old 08-15-2007, 09:56 PM
 
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Originally Posted by TryingMyBest View Post
The only thing I want to beg of you when you reply is PLEASE PLEASE be sensitive to how I feel right now. I pulled my son off of the circumstraint in the hospital at the last minute strictly on maternal instinct and a strange gut wrenching desire to climb out of my skin and go to him....
How scary that all must've been for both of you! But I think you had that feeling for a reason, mama.

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Originally Posted by TryingMyBest View Post
I am afraid that he will just want to be like everyone else but be too old to want to do the surgery because it IS such an undertaking for an older person.
This is a common fallacy. It is actually MUCH less of an undertaking for an older person. If a man past puberty decides to be circumcised, he gets anaesthetic and afterwards strong painkillers. He gets to make a decision about how much to have removed. The surgeon has the benefit of knowing exactly how much penis there is to work with, so there is no "surprise, we cut you as a newborn for a 6" penis and you grew up to have an 8" one, only there's not enough skin to go around so erections and intercourse will be painful". And most importantly, he knows exactly what's happening to him. He doesn't have to deal with the terror that a newborn does, thinking that he's going to die and never see his mother again.
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#14 of 171 Old 08-15-2007, 10:00 PM
 
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I am so touched that you stood up to everyone and pulled him back to you. Bravo! : Thank you for posting and doing whatever it takes to protect your children.

Mamma to 3! nurslings Emma (4) Daniel (3) and our new baby Beth! 10/10/09
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#15 of 171 Old 08-15-2007, 10:03 PM
 
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I'm posting again because I read the other members posts above, and
4 years ago yesterday marks the 4th anniversary of the date that I subjected my own son to this.....


Quote:
Originally Posted by MCatLvrMom2A&X View Post
...the foreskin is fused to the head of the penis like the fingernail is to the nail bed and has to be ripped apart....
I wish someone had told me exactly this back then!!
I can't take back my mistakes, but...

YOU KNOW BETTER LEAVE HIM ALONE!!!

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#16 of 171 Old 08-15-2007, 10:09 PM
 
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My bet is that intact men don't circ themselves as adults because they are quite happy having a fully functional penis with full sensitivity. You have to remember the circ'd penis does NOT function the way a normal penis does. It has been permanently denuded and desensitized.

An important part of this whole process (educating your son) will go a very long way to helping him understand why he was left intact. It is your responsibility to teach him about all the benefits of being intact and also to remind him that circumcised boys are somewhat less fortunate than he is. This info. will help him appreciate his status!

You CAN NOT undue a circ. Let your son make this decision for himself. IT is HIS penis. HE is the only one who should decide if he wants it modified permanently.
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#17 of 171 Old 08-15-2007, 10:19 PM
 
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Originally Posted by TryingMyBest View Post
I am scared to death that my son will say...WOW Mom, thanks SO much for not circumcising me...dripping with sarcasm. I am afraid that he will just want to be like everyone else but be too old to want to do the surgery because it IS such an undertaking for an older person.

I know that a boy can decide later to be circed..but the truth is most don't. That can either be by satisfaction (I HOPE!!!) or fear of the procedure.
These aren't things to worry about. As you said, most intact males DON'T do it later because most of them wouldn't dream of it. For the ones that toy with the idea, I suspect most of them don't because they KNOW there will trade-offs for whatever positive they may perceive...and it has very little to do with fear of the actual surgery itself. I have read accounts of a FEW teens and adult men who do get it done, usually for psychological/social conformity reasons. Those that do make the choice for THEMSELVES are usually pleased with it and don't describe it as the horrendous experience that all the folklore would have you believe. Personally, I survived a re-circ at the age of six. I have very little recall of the "pain", though I know it wasn't exactly a fun thing, and the only life-long scarring I received was physical, not mental.

And the other thing to consider is that this generation is incredibly computer/internet savvy and much more informed on this issue than the last couple of generations of cut men. Even among teens now I've come across discussion of this issue and some are even restoring at that young age. The awareness is incredible and will surely keep growing. Even among the few that have chosen to get circ'd later, many will still express gratitude that their parents left the choice to them.
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#18 of 171 Old 08-15-2007, 10:25 PM
 
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Just reading yours now; and.....

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Originally Posted by TryingMyBest View Post
....I know that a boy can decide later to be circed..but the truth is most don't. That can either be by satisfaction...or fear of the procedure....
Ummm...out of curiosity... what makes you think that if an infant boy had the capacity to understand the procedure that he wouldn't fear it as well?!!?!?!?!?!?!

I know you asked for sensitivity; but I really don't think this is logical. If you've done your research, there shouldn't even be a shred of doubt; because you could teach your son what you know about the evils of circ when the situation arises.

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#19 of 171 Old 08-15-2007, 10:35 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Where do you live?

I live in the east coast, and I wasn't circumcised and I never had any problems. Medically or socially.

There are no "long-term" effects of not circing. That's the norm, the default. That's like asking what of the long-term effects of not removing your eyelids.
We are in Georgia. Apparently the caucasian circ rate here is pretty high. CDC said like 84% at one point. Anyone have any better data than that?
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#20 of 171 Old 08-15-2007, 10:45 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Um, there are no negative ones. At all. Are you having negative affects because of your foreskin as an adult? No? It's pretty likely your son won't either.



While most of us have boys too young to answer these, I can talk to you about a survey I read...I'm not positive where it was from and I want to say Men's Health but I can't for sure.

Of the respondants who were cut, about 20% were unhappy with it (extremely high for a cosmetic surgery). Of the guys who weren't cut, 3% were unhappy with it.

The difference between the two groups? The intact guys have the freedom to do something about it if they feel so inclined that doesn't involve years of wearing a device on their penis for a mere facsimile.

Answer me this: How does your son having a foreskin affect YOU. It doesn't. It affects HIM for his entire life.


Trust me, as someone who suffered for over 6 years because of my mother in law deciding to butt in her son's sex life, I can tell you this - stay out of your son and his future partner's bed.

ETA:

Answer me this too: Would you remove your daughters foreskin? Yep, girls have them too. And they have smegma and "higher HIV risks" just like a boys. And some think the vaginal area looks nicer without a foreskin. Does that make you want to run out and circumcise a female child? If not, then maybe you should question why you want to do the same thing to a male child.

Also with the circumcision rate (nationally) below 60% (below 30% on the west coast) your kid won't be alone. At all.

And there's plenty of threads on how to explain why brothers are different.
You are exactly right about his foreskin not affecting me. I am not concerned about myself in this decision. I am not one to focus on if I am judged as a mother for not circing by traditionalist. I am only concerned about him.

Again, this is all brand new to me. Two weeks ago...I didn't know anything about the topic. I do not WANT to circumcize anyone, I just assumed that he might be miserable with a foreskin...because he would be the minority among his peers in our state. I know of women that say they would "run" from an uncirced penis. I am not one of them...and I can say that I probably wouldn't want him dating one of those girls anyway..however, that would again be his call.

Thank you for the response!
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#21 of 171 Old 08-15-2007, 10:50 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Since 80% of the worlds population is intact and almost 50% of those are in the USA (if you live here) your ds will not really be in the minority.

Please leave your little one intact he deserves the right to enjoy his whole body.

Like a pp said there are no down sides to being intact. It is how men were supposed to be made or they wouldnt be born with a foreskin.

Your dh will get over it and ask him if he ever set down and compaired genitals with his dad. I bet the answer will be no. And if it comes up with your other ds's then you explain to them that you thought you were doing what was right at the time but now you know it was wrong and appologize to them.

You said you have done all the research you can do. Have you watched the video linked to here what circ is like?
Have you learned that to preform the circ the dr actually stimulates a erection to do the cut? So the boys first sexual experiance is with this stranger?
Have you learned that the foreskin is fused to the head of the penis like the fingernail is to the nail bed and has to be ripped apart?
Have you learned that 10% of boys who are circed have complications that need surgery later?
Have you learned that no anesthesia is used?
Have you learned that it isnt your body to cut on?
It belongs to your son no one else has the right to do cosmetic surgery on him.


Your dh will get over it mine has and if he dosnt then he isnt the man you thought he was. I dont mean any of the above to be snarky they are facts and I want you to know them if you dont already. I have to assume you dont know them or you wouldnt still be considering doing this to your helpless newborn.

to you and I will pray you make the right decision.
Please do pray....I am also. I have just begged for an answer. Stupid society for putting these insane stigmas on us.

For your questions...
Have you watched the video linked to here what circ is like? I could not watch it. I felt that I needed to though..but as you can tell it's a catch 22 for someone that has circed and is not opting not to. So, I pushed play watched as much as I could then turned my head and listened because I felt I needed to...I cried for about an hour.
Have you learned that to preform the circ the dr actually stimulates a erection to do the cut? So the boys first sexual experiance is with this stranger? I had NO idea.
Have you learned that the foreskin is fused to the head of the penis like the fingernail is to the nail bed and has to be ripped apart? I knew they were fused, I had heard the analogy before. Are you likening the pain as well?

Have you learned that 10% of boys who are circed have complications that need surgery later? Nope. DS2 has adhesions that we are hoping will come "undone" as he grows. Plastibell. DS1 had an adhesion "pulled" apart by a ped years ago.
Have you learned that no anesthesia is used? That is why I went to get him in the first place. That was a requirement.
Have you learned that it isnt your body to cut on? Again, major part of the problem.
It belongs to your son no one else has the right to do cosmetic surgery on him.
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#22 of 171 Old 08-15-2007, 10:56 PM
 
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Mama I don't know if you got a chance to read my PM or not so I will restate what I think is a very important point.

The other aspect of this to consider is that circumcision is like playing russian roulette. The outcome depends completely on who performs the procedure and how they perform it. I think that every circumcision is probably different even if performed by the same physician because every penis is different. Just because your first son has had no complications doesn't mean your second son won't. I think the guilt would be beyond imagination if you chose to circumcise knowing what you now know and he came out with a complication.
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#23 of 171 Old 08-15-2007, 11:01 PM
 
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Originally Posted by TryingMyBest View Post
Can you guys tell me how your boys were affected by being different? Did they want to be circed later?
My two intact sons are now 21 and 23. They are quite happy with having all their parts, and have thanked me for not circumcising them.

However, as they were growing up they dealt with life very differently. The older one was very easy going, never let anything bother him. The younger one was much more intense emotionally, and for a while was quite concerned with appearances and what other people thought of him - dyed his hair, wore the baggy pants, etc.

So the younger one, when he was 15, came to me and announced he wanted to get circumcised. Although I thought I had been a very open parent about sexuality issues (I am a nurse), it turns out that my son really knew very little about his foreskin or the procedure, and once he had the information, it became a non-issue. [This is a much longer story than what I will go into here.]

Every kid is going to be different in their temperament, some will be more affected by the little emotional twists and turns that come up with growing up; others, like my older son, everything just rolls right off their back.

We live in a culture that is still predominantly a circumcising culture (although we are unique in the world for this), so there may be some situations that come up where a boy might have questions, or feelings about not being circumcised. Not circumcising is the Big Unknown for a lot of parents, and all the "what ifs" float around in one's head when making this decision. However, in my experience the fact of the matter is that any kind of emotional stressor is very unlikely to occur, and if something does come up, it can be dealt with effectively with education and good parental support. No biggie, in other words, and no different from parenting a kid through any other tough situation that may come along the pike (and there are many much tougher than finding out one has all one's body parts!). And no need to do preemptive surgery to allay parents' fears of Worst Case Scenarios that are in reality not likely to happen.

I think the key is to educate them about their bodies, and about circumcision, so that they know the value of having a whole body, and that they are lucky to have escaped that particularly damaging cultural ritual.

I think dads really need to be on board with supporting their intact sons, so hopefully your husband will educate himself and covey a positive attitude to your son about his body. A father needs to be well-informed about issues surrounding circumcision in our culture and about the foreskin, so he can buy into the value of supporting the boy in being intact, not just be passive and uncommitted about the initial decision. My husband (circumcised) has never seen any good reason for doing it, and as he has learned more about circumcision he has had to do some grieving about it. He says although he really has nothing to compare to, he wishes he hadn't been circumcised, that he wishes he'd had a choice about it. My son is able to talk to him about it more freely than with me, and I think it is a good support that my son has heard from his Dad that he (my husband) wishes he weren't circumcised.

I just want to say that I am super-impressed with the protective intuition and courage that you allowed to guide you when you took your son off that circumstraint. You listened to your inner voice, and that is incredibly empowering. There are plenty of mothers who wish they had done the same, or been given the support to take that same action. You are going through a lot of turmoil, it seems, but really you should be dancing for joy and giving thanks that you and your son were spared from being dragged under by cultural insanity once more, and have chosen to respect his wholeness and your own maternal knowing. It sounds like, in truth, when you took your son off that circumstraint board, that the decision was actually already made. So take a deep breath and know that it is right.

You have found a great board for support. Hope these words give you the encouragement you are seeking.

Gillian
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#24 of 171 Old 08-15-2007, 11:11 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Blu Razzberri View Post
Just reading yours now; and.....



Ummm...out of curiosity... what makes you think that if an infant boy had the capacity to understand the procedure that he wouldn't fear it as well?!!?!?!?!?!?!

I know you asked for sensitivity; but I really don't think this is logical. If you've done your research, there shouldn't even be a shred of doubt; because you could teach your son what you know about the evils of circ when the situation arises.
I know the irony of what I said. It's a fear. A VALID fear to worry that your child will not be happy with your decision EITHER WAY. Surely, you have heard of boys that were intact that felt inferior and wanted to be circed??? That is all I was saying...there is a fear on both sides of the equation. Meaning you could worry if they were unhappy with circed or uncirced. Maybe I have overanalysed it. At this point...and possibly my hormones.../post partum feelings are taking over...I am thinking about every possible solution.

As for sensitivity...I asked for it because I have literally overdone the issue in my mind. Also, any group of people that have strong beliefs in emotional topics have to be very careful how they drive their points home to individuals that might have concerns or worries...or be on the fence on said subject matter. To make one feel alienated or WRONG for asking for help can drive them away. I would not run scared...but I have seen an attack on similar sites for other items...and it resembles a pirahna attack....various character jabs...stating the obvious to you might not be the obvious to another. The bottom line is that I am a mother that is in a tough spot here. I wanted to ask for sensitivity to start with so that we could avoid that. Sometimes our emotions can make us think illogically. You could ask my husband about it and he would tell you...I have been a blubbering mess...hardly capable of making a decision like this...but still having to.

ON a side note, when people who come for help are attacked...they tend to turn back to the most common source of suppor they know. Those are typically the SAME people that traditionalize the problem.

I am not feeling attacked...just wanted you to know where I was coming from in requesting sensitivity.
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#25 of 171 Old 08-15-2007, 11:20 PM
 
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Mama I am sorry if you feel attacked in any way by the responses here. People are very passionate about protecting little boys genital integrity.

The bottom line here is that you can make a decision for your son that is irreversible. He can restore if he chooses to later in life but it will not be the same and can take years. He will undergo an incredibly painful procedure without anesthia more than likely. The only reason this is even considered okay in our society is because newborn boys do not have a voice to complain about their treatment.

Or you can choose to allow him to remain intact and not subject him to that pain. If he is unhappy with his intact status he can choose to be circumcised later in life. He will then have the option of general anesthesia and proper post-operative pain management.

I can feel how conflicted you are.
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#26 of 171 Old 08-15-2007, 11:22 PM
 
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I just wanted to add some perspective and send you a big hug

My own intact son is only 15 months old so I'm sure that doesn't help you too much ( For what it's worth he does seem to be very happy with his intact penis )

However, my brothers are 18 and 24 intact, and grew up in a time where circ rates were much much higher than they are now.

The oldest doesn't have much to say about the issue besides he was never teased by anyone and has never had any trouble finding women because of his foreskin. He said it is pretty much a total non-issue to him. He also said he would never circ because there is no reason to.

The younger one is a bit more vocal on the issue. He also said no one has ever commented to him on his penis. (his words are 'no one has ever said anything to me - doing so would be admitting you were looking at another guy's dick and no guy would ever admit to looking at another guy's dick.' He also said that in his high school it's about 50/50 anyway and we're in the east coast where rates are supposed to be higher)
He also said his foreskin is like his 'insurance policy' - He said if something ever comes out that proves circ is the way to go he can always have it done, but there are so many guys that certainly can't get a foreskin back. He also says that his girlfriend didn't even blink when he 'told' her about it.
He agreed with the older brother in that it was never really a big thing for him either.
He also says he would never circ - basically for the same reason - there is no reason for it.

* also, just for the record my brothers are intact but my father was circ'ed. It was never a problem for anyone.
DH is circ'ed also and like he said how often do you see your father's penis anyway?

I'll be happy to ask them any other questions you may have. (well, I'll ask the little one at least - the older one tends to look at me wierd when I ask about his peronal pieces )

I hope that helps - good luck in finding some peace and I really hope you decide to not circ your new baby!

<3 Dena

Wife to M 4.04 and Mama to hopmad.gifJ the activist 5.06, superhero.gifSammy Tsunami 12.09, and stork-girl.gif  coming soon!

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#27 of 171 Old 08-15-2007, 11:24 PM
 
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Here are links to statistics the latest i think are from 2004

http://www.cirp.org/library/statistics/USA/
Quote:
Southern Region 58.5% All Regions 57.4%
http://www.cirp.org/library/statisti...taterates2004/
Your ds will be far from the minority being intact. Every year the rate drops & with any luck by the time my kids have kids circ will have went the way of the dinosaurs.

 
SAHMlady.gifread.giflovin' trekkie.giffan intactivist.gifwinner.jpg to loveeyes.gifenergy.gifDD 10/00 & superhero.gifmoon.gifDS 10/04 ribbonpb.gifIf your ds is intact, keep him safe, visit the Case Against Circ forumnocirc.gifCirc, a personal choice, Your sonsyes.gifbrokenheart.gif11/98brokenheart.gif6/99ribbonbrown.gifanti-tobaccoribbonyellow.gifThyroid cancer survivor. With cat.gif& goldfish.gif & (Boxer)dog2.gif wishing 4 whale.gif&ribbonwhite.gifsigncirc1.gifselectivevax.gifdelayedvax.gif

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#28 of 171 Old 08-15-2007, 11:52 PM
 
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I have to say, I'm more than a little mad at you, on behalf of your infant; because frankly, it's looking to me like you're trying to find someone to tell you that it's ok to do it. I won't be that someone.

*Edited to add: While I was putting this post together, you replied to one of my other posts and basically said that if I say it too harshly, that you'll run off and do it because I scared you off with my meanness. It just kinda drove home that point.

You don't need an "out"...let's examine some of the things you've said, I'll give you some more information based on your 'concerns'...*

Quote:
Originally Posted by TryingMyBest View Post
...DS2 has adhesions that we are hoping will come "undone" as he grows. Plastibell. DS1 had an adhesion "pulled" apart by a ped years ago....
: : BOTH your other sons have complications and you're STILL trying to justify not circumcizing your newborn!?!?!?!? Perhaps you need someone to spell out the obvious? ...Ok, I'll do it....

> It's a bad idea to circumcize <

You're lucky your older boys only have adhesions as complications. It can be much much worse.

I think what you're really trying to say here, is "someone tell me to ignore what I've learned because it's easier to have three circ'd boys than to justify explaining to the other two why I left their brother intact; because I know they're more likely to protest their circumcisions than their brother is to protest his foreskin"

I can help with that part. (You can find more valuable information on my blog - which can be found on the top right side of the page). Here's an excerpt from my "circumcision" entry....

Quote:
What about expecting parents who have already circumcised their first son(s)?

Some parents, even those who have newfound doubts about the ethics of circumcision, are tempted to circumcise their new baby boy if their other sons are already circumcised. They may worry that the older boys will resent them for allowing their penises to be cut while leaving their younger brother's penis intact. But continuing the cycle of genital mutilation will not make things better. The best thing for these parents to do is to leave their new son intact and explain to the older sons that when they were born, many people believed that circumcision was a harmless or even beneficial procedure. Now that more is known about circumcision, however, it is no longer routinely done and that is why their younger brother is intact.
I'm reading your recent responses; and....

Quote:
Originally Posted by TryingMyBest View Post
....Apparently the caucasian circ rate here is pretty high. CDC said like 84% at one point. Anyone have any better data than that?...
Ok. Here's some better data: 100% of informed infants protest their impending circumcision. Oh wait....they have no idea what they're in for. But I bet they'd protest if they could be informed! (afterall, your son would probably protest to having it done as an adult, right?) At least as an adult, he will be able to take legal action if the surgery is botched. You can't do the same because they'll make you sign a waiver ...Wait! Waiver? What's that for?..... In case THIS happens. Then you can't hold the doctor accountable.

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Originally Posted by TryingMyBest View Post
...I am not concerned about myself in this decision....I am only concerned about him....
I'd be concerned about him too; because if you decide to do it; THIS is what he's in for (it's the intro page for the video. The video link is at the bottom)

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Originally Posted by TryingMyBest View Post
...I could not watch (the video)....I pushed play watched as much as I could....
If you can't watch the video; then you should probably question why you're going to subject his little body to something that's too painful even for you to WATCH.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TryingMyBest View Post
...I do not WANT to circumcize anyone....
GOOD. Then DON'T.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TryingMyBest View Post
... I just assumed that he might be miserable with a foreskin....
I'm miserable with the small boobs I have now, as an adult. I curse my mother regularily for not getting me breast implants when I was an infant so I didn't have to make the decision as an adult. Damn you mom...why??? Don't you know I had to go through highschool like this??? :

Quote:
Originally Posted by TryingMyBest View Post
...because he would be the minority among his peers in our state....
*gasp* We can't have THAT! It goes against our social attempts to look and act exactly the same!! You should probably ask the circ doctor to give him some tattoo's and body piercings while he's at it; because that's the current trend.

Listen; I know it's a bit harsh to say it like that; but seriously consider what I just said and why. Don't you want to teach your son to be original. If he conforms with the norm, he could end up in serious trouble. Doing this would be the first step towards being a conformist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TryingMyBest View Post
...I know of women that say they would "run" from an uncirced penis.....
Pffft. A woman will always find at least one small fault in her man. If that fault happens to be foreskin; it's her loss.

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Originally Posted by TryingMyBest View Post
...I can say that I probably wouldn't want him dating one of those girls anyway..however, that would again be his call...
Well, if he's so in love with a girl that won't stay with him because he's circ'd; then I'm sure he'll be willing to endure the operation. But I'd be willing to bet that his response would be much like mine would be if I had a boyfriend who would only stay with me if I got implants... "there's the door, don't let it hit you on the way out!"

Quote:
Originally Posted by TryingMyBest View Post
...Stupid society for putting these insane stigmas on us....
You're part of society; participate in undoing the stigma's one baby at a time. Start with yours....then tell your friends.



PS:
Quote:
Originally Posted by TryingMyBest View Post
...That is why I went to get him in the first place. (Anesthesia) was a requirement....
Usually, they actually don't even use the anesthetic, they just say they do; and then charge you for it. But even if they do, here's something to consider: would you let them cut a piece of your labia off with a local anesthetic? I wouldn't. When I had my son, I tore and had to get stitching. They gave me a local anestetic (which hurt in iteself) and I still felt every stitch.

Oh yeah, and the anesthetic they use isn't recommended for children!! (read about this here) : How's that for irony?

WARNING: The comments and opinions expressed above do not necessarily reflect those of the community in which I reside; or those of the internet parenting network.
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#29 of 171 Old 08-15-2007, 11:52 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I just wanted to add some perspective and send you a big hug

My own intact son is only 15 months old so I'm sure that doesn't help you too much ( For what it's worth he does seem to be very happy with his intact penis )

However, my brothers are 18 and 24 intact, and grew up in a time where circ rates were much much higher than they are now.

The oldest doesn't have much to say about the issue besides he was never teased by anyone and has never had any trouble finding women because of his foreskin. He said it is pretty much a total non-issue to him. He also said he would never circ because there is no reason to.

The younger one is a bit more vocal on the issue. He also said no one has ever commented to him on his penis. (his words are 'no one has ever said anything to me - doing so would be admitting you were looking at another guy's dick and no guy would ever admit to looking at another guy's dick.' He also said that in his high school it's about 50/50 anyway and we're in the east coast where rates are supposed to be higher)
He also said his foreskin is like his 'insurance policy' - He said if something ever comes out that proves circ is the way to go he can always have it done, but there are so many guys that certainly can't get a foreskin back. He also says that his girlfriend didn't even blink when he 'told' her about it.
He agreed with the older brother in that it was never really a big thing for him either.
He also says he would never circ - basically for the same reason - there is no reason for it.

* also, just for the record my brothers are intact but my father was circ'ed. It was never a problem for anyone.
DH is circ'ed also and like he said how often do you see your father's penis anyway?

I'll be happy to ask them any other questions you may have. (well, I'll ask the little one at least - the older one tends to look at me wierd when I ask about his peronal pieces )

I hope that helps - good luck in finding some peace and I really hope you decide to not circ your new baby!
Thank you for such a sweet reply. Where are you guys at on the east coast? It sounds like your brothers really didn't have an issue. I hate to say it but it seems that white girls are the most "squeamish" about it..they have kind of nasty attitudes about oral sex on uncirced guys in some cases. Again, this probably shouldn't even be crossing my mind...but I just hope that he doesn't get given a social stint because of it. It's so sad that society makes us fear this. Do your brothers ever get involved in anticirc stuff?
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#30 of 171 Old 08-15-2007, 11:55 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by MCatLvrMom2A&X View Post
Here are links to statistics the latest i think are from 2004

http://www.cirp.org/library/statistics/USA/

http://www.cirp.org/library/statisti...taterates2004/
Your ds will be far from the minority being intact. Every year the rate drops & with any luck by the time my kids have kids circ will have went the way of the dinosaurs.
I saw this data and it made me smile. I just wish it wasn't done in the first dang place. One of my friends said that the changes could be attributed to immigration and taht the medicaid and state funded programs stopped covering. I guess atleast that part is true since the states that were taken off of coverage cut in half in 1-2 years. WOW. That is also sad because then it goes back to being a socioecomnic issue. That perpetuates that people with money and good healthcare get circed, KWIM?

I went to my ped the other day for the newborn check and asked them about circs in our area. 95% of whites are circed in his practice...they say. Said the latino community had low rates....like 30% circed...70% not.
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