Please HELP me!!! - Mothering Forums
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
#1 of 14 Old 07-18-2003, 11:13 AM - Thread Starter
 
Avonlea's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Leaping & Hopping on a Moon shadow
Posts: 1,799
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I need links and info. pronto please...places where I can print things out and have a packet prepared for Dh to read asap.

I have a pretty short period of time and a husband who thinks this is just "what you do"..and also is using the arguement that our first son was "done " so we HAVE to do it the second time around.

If I had only known then what I know now.....

I showed DH my copy of our birth plan and eh was ok wiht everything until the last line when I stated I did nOT want to have my son circumsised( if it is a soy..we don't know) and he tore the birth plan up and told me that it was NONe of my concern.As I am" not male and so I have no say..etc."

I was also told I would just get to stay in the hospital until I agreed and that he would have it done if eh could.I did tell him I will not sign anything and was sscoffed at..this is getting to be ugly and getting personal on his part.

I want to do what is right and protect my unborn son( if it is a boy..)and I need facts..people..cold hard facts.

When we had our first son I never knew half of what I know now, and so I said ok ..rather reluctantly as I had a LARGE amount of pressure from teh hospital staff/nurse, my Dh, my mother.all looking at me and telling me to do it and he will be "fine".

Well. I know that I was revolted once I saw what had been done. lost a ton of respect for those around me, and was livid that I had said yes. I wish I had never said yes, or signed my name or let tehm take my perfect little boy out of my room to cut things off of his body for NO reason other than to make other people happy.

It has been almost three years and my reaction to this procedure has maintained a steadfast course.I was wrong and will not agree to do this again.

My son was healthy and normal, there was NO reason for this procedure, and I think that it should not have been done.

I am petrified of what my husband is going to say or do..but also have to consider my future sons health and well-being.

Please give me any info you can..PLEASE! I don't know if he will read any of it or not..but I can try as hard as possible in teh meanwhile..now can't I ?


And please keep me in your thoughts.This whole situtaion is maing it hard for me to sleep .I am awake half the night and upset over his reaction..it was rude , ugly and not nessesary in any way..and yet so typical of his attitude towards things.

Help!
Avonlea is offline  
#2 of 14 Old 07-18-2003, 12:24 PM
 
lise brit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: california
Posts: 89
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Hi,

Glad to hear your are protecting your new baby (if its a boy). I am kind of in a hurry, but try and read the posts under J'smommy's mail entitled "please help - baby due any day", it has a lot of good links. You can also go to www.nocirc.org, which has a ton of good info. I know its a difficult time for you, especially with your husband. I would strongly recommend that you have him observe a hospital circ. He can either do it at the hospital or there are plenty of videos on the net.

You are doing the right thing. You are not alone. I had to do the same thing and my boys are intact. I know its difficult with your husband. Acouple of things. Prior to giving birth, contact the hospital and put in writing that you want no circ. They will not do it. Also, you may want to think about not discussing this with your husband, because chances are you will just end up arguing. Chances are he will come arounf once the baby gets older. Oh and by the way, the circ rate is under 60% nationwide (this stat is on the nocirc website and you can also get it by doing a google under bollinger and circumcision), so its no just done.

Hope this helps. I will be praying and thinking about you. Be strong, you are a mother and only you can speak up for your baby, he/she is completely defenseless and depend 100% on you

Lise
lise brit is offline  
#3 of 14 Old 07-18-2003, 12:49 PM
Banned
 
turquoise's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Climbing the padded walls
Posts: 1,188
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
This is very convincing: http://www.intact.ca/video.html

I'm sorry for your situation and I picture myself being there if we are ever blessed with another son. When you bring it up again, stay calm and try to point out he's your son (if it is a boy) too and you both should agree on any decisions that affect him so DH should at least hear you out.

s
turquoise is offline  
#4 of 14 Old 07-18-2003, 01:07 PM
Banned
 
somemama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,645
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
He TORE UP your birth plan? Write a new one. Include the same things.

Are you worried about your dh becoming violent? Or is your dh already violent? If so, that's another whole issue.

If not, then you have to do something that might be hard for you to do.........STAND UP TO HIM. Just quietly, but with conviction, keep repeating that THIS WILL NOT HAPPEN TO YOUR SON. PERIOD.

If he or the nurse hands you permission papers to sign, TEAR THEM UP. Just refuse. Period. You don't have to convince him. Just don't let it happen.

Let him rant and rave. You don't have to get caught up in the argument.

Here is some good info, though:

http://www.noharmm.org/education.htm


Tell everyone--doctors, nurses, etc. that your son WILL NOT BE CIRC'd. Tell them you'll sue if it is done without YOUR consent. Then just don't consent! And keep your son with you at all times. Have someone else there, if possible--a friend, your sister, etc. who will help you watch your son, as well, to make sure no one takes him off to circ him.

And tell your dh that this time (pregnancy, labor) is a difficult time for you and you need him to be supportive!!

Here's another link:

http://www.noharmm.org/appeal.htm

And if he says that he will leave you in the hospital, call his bluff. Say "fine." Call a friend to get you. Call a women's shelter. Don't let your son be abused (circ'd.) It's up to you, mama! I know it's hard. HUGS!
somemama is offline  
#5 of 14 Old 07-18-2003, 03:13 PM
 
calngavinsmom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ontario Canada....EH!?!
Posts: 2,079
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Hi there Rebekah. I am so sorry this is so hard for you. This should be the most joyous time in your life, not one that causes you to lose sleep. I have some links for you to look at, I hope you find something that you can use.

Circumcision procedure,
http://www.circumcisionquotes.com/methods/html

General info,
http://www.mothering.com/10-0-0/html...cision85.shtml
http://www.circumcision.org/info.htm
http://www.infocirc.org/facts.htm
http://www.infocirc.org/vice.htm
http://www.askdrsears.com/html/1/t012000.asp

Circumcision Rates,
http://www.cirp.org/statistics/bollinger2001/
http://www.courtchallenge.com/refs/rate1m.html

Medical communities,
http://www.nocircnc.org/medicalstatements.htm
http://www.circumcision.org/studies.htm
http://www.intact.ca/saskmemo.html

Risks and complications,
http://www.nocirc.org/consent/form.html
http://www.infocirc.org/uti2.htm

*For fathers*,
http://www.mothersagainstcirc.org/Like-Son.htm
http://www.noharmm.org/separated/htm
http://www.noharmm.org/bodyimage.htm
http://www.noharmm.org/synopsis.htm
http://www.cirp.org/library/complications/vanhowe/
http://www.norm-uk.org/circumcision_unhappy.html

Personal experience,
http://www.circquotes.tilted.com/

Intact vs circed care,
http://www.nocirc.org/publish/4pam.pdf
http://www.nocirc.org/publish/5pam.pdf

In the news,
http://www.cirp.org/news/

Sexual side effects,
http://www.boystoo.com/medical/conversion.htm

Pain and Behaviour,
http://www.circumcision.org/response.htm
http://www.infocirc.org/babypain.htm
http://www.cnn.com/HEALTH/9712/23/ci...tic/index.html

This is a great place to search for stats and info,
http://www.cirp.org

Good luck and keep us posted,
Tara

P.S., if you need anything else, you will ALWAYS find support here.

Tara Momma to Callum and Gavin
calngavinsmom is offline  
#6 of 14 Old 07-18-2003, 03:28 PM
Banned
 
turquoise's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Climbing the padded walls
Posts: 1,188
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Sorry, you're having these problems! I can't stop thinking about your situation!

Just wanted to add that when I said I'd be in your shoes I meant convincing a DH not to circ. I think most will agree that the reaction your DH gave you was pretty harsh and from what you wrote it was uncalled for.

hang in there, hope it's not as bad as it sounds violence/refusal to communicate = very un-cool.
turquoise is offline  
#7 of 14 Old 07-18-2003, 10:25 PM
 
candiland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Waiting for Calgon to take me away.
Posts: 4,107
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
I showed DH my copy of our birth plan and eh was ok wiht everything until the last line when I stated I did nOT want to have my son circumsised( if it is a soy..we don't know) and he tore the birth plan up and told me that it was NONe of my concern.As I am" not male and so I have no say..etc."
Geez, now hospitals are circumcising SOYS???? It's bad enough that they were circumcising boys!!!! LOL
Sounds like he has a lot of healing to do from the trauma of his own mutilation: Have you told him that it's cosmetic surgery? And that it is illegal to perform unecessary cosmetic surgery on an unconsenting person? And that the equivalent of chopping off a healthy, functioning foreskin is the equivalent of removing a woman's clitoris?
candiland is offline  
#8 of 14 Old 07-19-2003, 12:03 AM
 
Xenogenesis's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Jamaica me happy.
Posts: 1,996
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
My ds born '98 is circumcised according to my dh's prodding, cajoling, pestering, badgering and insistence.

If your dh is anything like my (now recently "x") dh he may not be willing to read anything concerning not circ'ing. I tried to prod him gently to no avail whence expecting in the Spring of 2001 (albeit lvery ate into my pregnancy). I finally resorted to reading exerpts from the articles I was printing and placing into a file with his awareness. I was in a royal panic situation as I was expecting any-day-now and I staunchly knew I wouldn't succumb to their expectations yet didn't have ALL the scientific evidence as to WHY. Then I began paraphrasing out loud certain important facts/aspects concerning circumcision even though he was busy using the computer; and/or watching tv as per usual (saying : Did You Know That, or Listen To This, etc .... ) I did not have a clue what issues would strike interest in him as he refused to discuss this with me (amongst his refusal to discuss other important-to-me topics : ) I'm sure he was ignoring me as much as possible throughout the majority of my earliest monologues . (ie. I was the only one speaking in these *conversations*) But finally he stopped pestering and badgering me to circ and then one day I overheard him telling another pregnant friend Not To Circumcise (when our son was close to a year old) and I knew my hard work had come full circle.

As for your dh's knowing what circumcision truly entails - he does not have a foreskin - so - ?? How Could He Know ?? Like I've said before "if all the tastebuds were ripped from my tongue as a newborn I also would claim "I love eating food and it tastes great," after all I'd still have my sense of smell. :

Go gentle on him. And make sure he knows you still love him just the same. <wink>

In order for him to agree with your stance he has to begin to come to terms with what was done to him without his consent. I can not imagine how difficult that would be.

I printed short articles and left them all over the house - on the kitchen table, the coffee table, the bedroom end-table and finally resorted to the bathroom. I KNOW he finally read the article concerning litigation (twice) .

No Matter What Happens - You Will Always Find Support Here ...

By The Way - I am definitely FOR my son seeking court action concerning his circumcision if he decides he would like to.
Xenogenesis is offline  
#9 of 14 Old 07-19-2003, 12:48 AM
 
Frankly Speaking's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: North Atlanta
Posts: 5,167
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Trust me when I tell you that this will all blow over. Your DH, all of your relatives and all of your friends will forget about it when that young man steals their heart. Then it will be a non-issue and forgotten.

Here are three links that I particularly like. They are all written by doctors to doctors:

BMA says parent's request not enough

http://www.bma.org.uk/ap.nsf/Content...rcumcision2003

CPS Warns physicians they may be sued by unhappy men

http://www.cirp.org/library/statements/sask2002/

Doctor orgainzation rips the AAP

http://faculty.washington.edu/gcd/DO...r10-15-02.html



There are also the excellent articles by Dr. Paul Fleiss located on this site.

Stand your ground. This will pass. With the guilt you are already feeling, if you allow this, you will have a lifetime of guilt to deal with. That is no way to spend a life. This life is not a dress rehersal. This is the only shot you'll get. Get it right!





Frank
Frankly Speaking is offline  
#10 of 14 Old 07-19-2003, 11:59 AM - Thread Starter
 
Avonlea's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Leaping & Hopping on a Moon shadow
Posts: 1,799
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I just wanted to thank everyone for oyur support. I am SO greatful for all of the links and information. So far I have printed nothing out ..but thats due to the fact that my Mom is going to be here on Monday and I am racing around here like a crazy person trrying to get ready for her.



He tore the birth plan because he said it did not represent HIS opinion and he did not want me giving something with HIS name on it to the Dr when he did not agree.

This does not make things right and in fact makes me even firmer in my stand. I wonder if he realizes that yet?

Doubtful.


When we had our first son I knew I did not want to have it done, but did not know AS MUCH as I do now..I let them do it on the stipulation that Dh watch and be with our son as it was preformed.

I was really hoping he would see what they were going to do and change his mind and refuse..but he did not.

I plan on calling the hospital and the Drs. office asap. I recall that my I DID have to sign a paper for it to occur, and I will be letting the staff know ahead of time that I will not be signing it .

Thank you all so much.

Now that I know what I know..I could not go ahead and have it done.
Not unlwess I was willing to hand my own body over the Dr and say.."cut my clit off while you are at it, ok?'
Avonlea is offline  
#11 of 14 Old 07-19-2003, 02:33 PM
 
Sarah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Indiana
Posts: 2,134
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Tearing up your birth plan was a violent act of intimidation. Tearing up something you wrote... about how you are going to try to give birth to your child- that is an attack on you. Tearing is violence... it is a representation of wanting to destroy you. Do you understand that?

If he wants to talk and communicate- you sit downand you point out what you don't like... but if a man tore up a birth plan I think you SERIOUSLY need to get protection. You need to tell lots of people around you that you are needing protection. You need to tell your Dr. and you need to get a person who is a protector- I don't know if it is a brother, a doula, a police employee, a family services employee.

You have been threatened and a pregnant woman should never be threatened in that way.

The birth process is also NOT a machine that is just going to chug through... this type of terroriztion to you can ruin your lability to labor. Why would your body be able to complete the procss of opening up and yielding the most ultimate giving when you are being dominated by someone who does not respect you or your feelings for your child.

The line about making you stay in the hospital until you consent- that is honestly- a threat of abduction- coercion. He is threatening you! Holding a person against their will is illegal. He can not do that in a hospital... but the fact that he would threaten you that way means that he does believe that he is above the law when it comes to you...that he does believe he can force you to do anything. if you challenge that- he might just prove it. This is serious, don't laugh it off or cover for him-

If it was me, and I am not kidding, I would get a protective order and go live with relatives with a strong wall of protection around me to avoid escalating violence. He is not stable and I think you are in danger. Tearing up papers is violence- even if he does not hit you- it is on the same level as smashingout your car windows, killing your pets or punching holes in walls. It is intened to make you fearful of his power, and it is out of control behavior.

This is not a matter of getting him to understand the importance of circumcision, this is a matter of geting YOU to understand the importance of the abusive situation you are in right now.

It is your birth plan, and if he doesn't want his name on it, you take his name OFF.

Yes- he is exhibiting the damage of a circumcised man. It's too late for you to face off with that beast right now, your own safety and your baby's is the only issue at this moment. Get the circumcision refusal form and take it to the Dr. and the hospital and make it known that you have been physically threatened over this and that your husband is likely to try or do anything in order to get this baby circumcised. Put it in writing that there will be no circumcision without a court order and that any genital cutting WILL be met with a lawsuit. Have all the doctors sign it- NOW... do not wait till you are in the emergency situation of labor.

You need an advocate who will stand up for you. Usually this is a husband, but obviously in this case he can not be trusted to put your needs first. Please tell your doctor about what happened.


http://www.americatakingaction.com/stopabuse/signs.htm

at the end of the list:

BREAKING OR STRIKING OBJECTS: This behavior is used as punishment (i.e.: breaking loved possessions), but is mostly used to terrorize the woman into submission. The man may beat on tables with his fist and throw objects around or near the woman. Again, this is a very remarkable behavior, only very immature people beat on objects in the presence of other people in order to threaten them.


ANY FORCE DURING AN ARGUMENT: This may involve a man holding a woman down, physically restraining her from leaving the room, and any pushing or shoving. (The man may hold the woman against a wall and say, "You're going to listen to me.")

Love Sarah
Sarah is offline  
#12 of 14 Old 07-20-2003, 11:22 AM
 
gurumama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,828
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Although my DH never tore up my birth plan, he did want to circ ds2 and we had circ'd ds1.

A few things that changed DH's mind:

1. Fewer than 50% of boys in our area (New England) are circ'd, so circ'd kids for ds's generation are the exception, not the rule. For someone who wants their boy to "conform" then leaving him intact will make him more "normal". This didn't really influence DH much, but it showed that many, many other parents are choosing to break the cycle and leave their boys intact.

2. I went through a LOT to prepare for a drug-free labor to leave ds in his natural state when born. Why would I then turn him over at day 1 to be altered and filled with pain?

3. Circumcision can be done any time. It is NOT "easier" to do when they're a baby--they just can't complain and voice their opinion. Leaving him alone until we could both cool off and decide at a later date, or even let him decide as a young adult/adult for himself, is an option many don't consider, because doctors push it at birth because of myths about how babies "need" it sooner rather than later.

4. DS1 had horrible wound care. It was probably no worse than "normal", but he didn't nurse for 12 hours after the procedure, screamed whenever he peed for the first 10 days, and in addition to being sleep deprived we had to have vaseline, gauze, and surgical tape on hand to construct a bandage for the wound when we changed his diaper. Hello! I was lucky to put the diaper on in the right direction those first few weeks, much less construct a complex bandage. PLus he was in so much pain, and they don't tell you to do anything for the pain post-circ, do they? I was never told to give him tylenol after the circumcision, but can you imagine if you had your eyelid cut off in a surgery and got NO pain meds afterwards? Yuck.

5. I refused to sign the paperwork. I told DH I would refuse, and that if he wanted this to escalate into something worse (possible leaving) I would stand my ground. It was THAT important, and DH and I have an outstanding, mature, deep relationship. But nobody, not even the father, f*cks with my kid.

I have to say the tearing of your birth plan worries me. I predict you'll go way over due date, because if you're carrying this fear you'll want to protect that baby as much as you can, and keeping him inside will be the only way to do it.

If DH is at all emotionally belittling or even abusive, you might want to mention what happened to your provider and go from there.

Also, just don't put his name on the birth plan if he doesn't like it! It's YOUR birth plan, after all.

Hell, I told DH I was ready to block him from coming to the birth at one point--you should have seen his face . But fortunately for us he understood that this issue was soooooo important to me, and he agreed to leave Reilly intact. And now that Reilly is 15 months DH is the biggest champion of leaving boys intact!

Best of luck,

Mel
gurumama is offline  
#13 of 14 Old 07-25-2003, 10:44 AM
Banned
 
somemama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,645
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
How are you, Avonlea?
somemama is offline  
#14 of 14 Old 07-28-2003, 12:05 AM
 
Gemini's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: What a mess.
Posts: 7,419
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
For what it's worth....

I have a good friend with two older boys, the older one circ'ed, and the younger one not circ'ed. She says it has never been an issue with them. She wished she knew what she knows now about circ'ing (not circ'ing that is) when she had her first son.

Stand your ground Avonlea...

How are you doing now??
Gemini is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Drag and Drop File Upload
Drag files here to attach!
Upload Progress: 0
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Mothering Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off