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#31 of 47 Old 10-23-2007, 01:43 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Daisyuk View Post
I know that.

Doesn't stop me thinking that they do though. I just cannot look at an American any more without feeling pity for the men and contempt for the women, thinking that either they are circ'd or are going to do it to a cute, innocent little baby. I know that's unfair, but that's how I feel. I hear an American accent and it makes me feel slightly sick, I guess that's a learned response from the debate boards, sorry, I can't help it. :
While I understand the feeling, that's what racism is.

I'm Jewish, and will NEVER circ a son of mine, and I constantly have to cringe at the repeated "Jews do ____" or "well you're different from the rest of them" because NO, I'm really not. There are LOTS of Jews who don't circ. I think many people would rather get upset about a culture than actually take the time to understand it and work with the culture.

No, I don't condemn the cultures that practice FGM. I think it's sad, it sickens me, but it's education they need, not judgement. It helps nobody except the judger feel better about themselves.

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#32 of 47 Old 10-23-2007, 02:06 PM
 
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I struggle with this as well, not because I stereotype cultures, but because I'm sort of scared of people who don't think critically and can't understand the difference between culture and nature. I don't feel safe being close compadres with people like this, because I often wind up with pressure to do things I know I shouldn't do and I really don't like that feeling. The willingness to circ has become a symbol for me of people who trust an institution over their own intuition.

And the older generations who really had no choice but to circ, well, I feel compassion for them, but I also fear their willingness en masse to just accept what the medical institution fed them. I have trouble trusting their advice on parenting and many other things. And I can't help but thinking, SOME parents finally got the nerve to go against the establishment; I just wish it could have been my IL's.:
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#33 of 47 Old 10-23-2007, 02:33 PM
 
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Judging cultures that circumcise their daughters is always ok, but judging cultures that circumcise their boys isn't. *sigh*......
Word. But I will judge anyway. It is wrong wrong wrong to cut off babies' genitals, period.
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#34 of 47 Old 10-24-2007, 02:14 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Daisyuk View Post
I know that.

Doesn't stop me thinking that they do though. I just cannot look at an American any more without feeling pity for the men and contempt for the women, thinking that either they are circ'd or are going to do it to a cute, innocent little baby. I know that's unfair, but that's how I feel. I hear an American accent and it makes me feel slightly sick, I guess that's a learned response from the debate boards, sorry, I can't help it. :
Daisy, I feel the same way. I am an American with an American accent. And whenever I meet new families with boys, I feel faintly sick. Thinking about their sons that are likely mutilated.

When I meet a British or European family I feel a sense of relief...these boys are safe and whole.

The woman who lives down the street circ'd her son because her husband is circ'd and wanted his son to be mutilated, too. That's not how he said it, but that is what is meant and felt. His tender male ego can't handle the thought of his son having all of his sexual organ when he himself has been mutilated.

I judge people who circ their children. If they later regret it, I am able to be friends with them. Otherwise, there is always a distance, a sense of mistrust that I have for them.

Really...this is abuse. If you knew a family who slapped their children across the face "for their own good" or because "it was done to me as a child and I turned out fine", wouldn't you have some emotional distance from them, even if it wasn't quite legally considered abuse?
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#35 of 47 Old 10-25-2007, 01:29 AM
 
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Tell that to all the people who call female circ grotesque and barbaric but claim male circ is a perfectly valid parental choice.

It's not me who makes that distinction.

I was just pointing out that the majority of people have no problem condeming cultures, like Egypt, that circ their girls.
No, Papai, they condemn the act, they condemn the people who do it, but condemning every Egyptian you meet because "Egyptians practice FGM" is revolting and racist.

For example:
Quote:
I'm Jewish, and will NEVER circ a son of mine, and I constantly have to cringe at the repeated "Jews do ____" or "well you're different from the rest of them" because NO, I'm really not. There are LOTS of Jews who don't circ. I think many people would rather get upset about a culture than actually take the time to understand it and work with the culture.
Papai, you would miss out on the opportuntiy of knowing this interesting and nice person because you judged them as beign from a circ culture and therefore not a good person without giving them a chance to show you what sort of person they are.
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#36 of 47 Old 10-25-2007, 01:41 AM
 
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I asked an egyptian from another board if she believes in circumcising dd's. she said "Oh LORD NO!!!" Whew!

I'm guilty for stereotyping cultures and hating them before knowing they actually circ'd or not. I've learned my self out of that kind of thinking by now.

Its interesting. I was once prejudice of stereotypical persona's thinking they circ'd. I have know clue if they did or not unless I flat out asked. I'm humbly admit my flaw here so please don't bash me on my pre-prejudice nature.
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#37 of 47 Old 10-25-2007, 07:35 AM
 
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Sorry this is late. I've been super busy at work and haven't had much time for posting.
Did it ever occur to any of you that Papai was being sarcastic when he wrote what he did? The problem is, irony is hard to convey on message boards. It's so easy just to take everyone's posts on face value. Papai has been anti-circumcision and pro-intact for as long as he's been posting here; that fact, along with the "sigh" that he put in the last of his post, means that we're NOT to take what he just wrote literally. Unfortunately, about 4 or 5 of you did just that.
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#38 of 47 Old 10-25-2007, 08:55 AM
 
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No, Papai, they condemn the act, they condemn the people who do it, but condemning every Egyptian you meet because "Egyptians practice FGM" is revolting and racist.

For example:


Papai, you would miss out on the opportuntiy of knowing this interesting and nice person because you judged them as beign from a circ culture and therefore not a good person without giving them a chance to show you what sort of person they are.
I never made any mention that I personally judge groups based on whether they circ or not. I just pointed out a disparity that I saw.

I associate with people from cultures that circumcise everyday. I'm just saying, people are quick to say it's wrong to condemn cultures that circ boys, but no one says a peep when FGM cultures get slammed. It's hypocritical.
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#39 of 47 Old 10-25-2007, 08:56 AM
 
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Sorry this is late. I've been super busy at work and haven't had much time for posting.
Did it ever occur to any of you that Papai was being sarcastic when he wrote what he did? The problem is, irony is hard to convey on message boards. It's so easy just to take everyone's posts on face value. Papai has been anti-circumcision and pro-intact for as long as he's been posting here; that fact, along with the "sigh" that he put in the last of his post, means that we're NOT to take what he just wrote literally. Unfortunately, about 4 or 5 of you did just that.
My post is being taken as a pro-circ post? :

LOL, it was sarcastic but it brought up the point I wanted to make, that FGM cultures get condemned regularly, but when it comes to MGM cultures, we're told they shouldn't be condemned and should be respected.
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#40 of 47 Old 10-25-2007, 10:12 AM
 
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I never made any mention that I personally judge groups based on whether they circ or not. I just pointed out a disparity that I saw.

I associate with people from cultures that circumcise everyday. I'm just saying, people are quick to say it's wrong to condemn cultures that circ boys, but no one says a peep when FGM cultures get slammed. It's hypocritical.
I agree that it's hypocritical. Not only is it hypocritical, it's racist, whether it be FGM or MGM we're talking about. It really saddens me that some people on this board can't see past the "I'm so disgusted! I can't believe they'd do that!" to open their eyes and see how racist their replies to this discussion are!

On a board like this, where we're of like minds on something so controversial yet so unifying, it saddens me that racism like this still abounds. We're supposed to be the people who see what's right and help others to achieve this, without regards to cultural boundaries and without judgement. Judging people based on generalizations alienates people like me or people like the Egyptian woman that fruitful_womb spoke to.

Maybe it makes me a b1+ch, but to be honest, after reading these posts, I no longer care if me being a Jew or me being an American disturbs you. It's honestly your own fear and unwillingness to open your eyes that's crippling your ability to relate with people who sometimes are just as enlightened and strong as you (if not more because they're bucking their culture's "tradition").

That really saddens me, and I hope everyone who feels this way gets over it, FAST. It's the only way you'll ever be able to help anyone who doesn't think the way you do.

:

ETA: Papai, I got the sarcasm. And you make a great point.

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#41 of 47 Old 10-25-2007, 10:29 AM
 
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I recently joined this forum, and have just in the last few months started diligent research on living a healthier, more natural life. I cherish my family and want better for us than what is considered to be "mainstream" food, medicine, etc. I've learned so much recently, thanks to the internet. Without this resource, I have no clue where I would have gotten so much good info. I say this because even our supposedly "fabulous" library system is seriously lacking in good anti-mainstream material. I say it's a conspiracy.

Which brings me to my point. My 4yo son is circumcised. When I was gathering information during my pregnancy, I never spent much time on the internet. I had a husband, toddler, and home to care for. I relied on professionals I trusted - my doctor, the pediatrician I had selected, nurses, and books at the library. The advice I got? Circumcise. It's better for their health, the baby feels no pain (just a pinch from the shot), etc, etc, etc. And I asked questions. I was NEVER told about the horrible truth.

I applaud everyone's activism. This is the ONLY way information like this will ever get in front of those who need it most. I have many friends who spend almost NO time on the internet - they, too, are uninformed and would find most of the info on this entire website new. How can they regret their decisions if they have no concept of what they've done? People NEED to KNOW about these things!!!

Just please remember that even folks who WANT and TRY to get informed about good food/medicine/health, etc, and who truly want the best for their families, can be led down the wrong path. I deeply regret quite a few decisions I made as a new mom - circ, vaccines, food choices, medical choices, etc. I am haunted by the feeling that I've done so much harm. But, I figure that being on the right path now counts for something.

This thread makes me wonder if I've ever run into anyone in these last 4 years who's only thought was "That woman is a barbarian," without knowing a thing about me other than the fact that I allowed my son to be circumcised. :

MY children will be armed with information. I pray (and and feel certain) that they will forgive the choices I made, and hope that they will make better choices for their own children. I can't change the past, but I sure can work to change the future. That's what activism is about, right?

Lauren
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#42 of 47 Old 10-25-2007, 10:34 AM
 
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Originally Posted by wife&mama View Post
I recently joined this forum, and have just in the last few months started diligent research on living a healthier, more natural life. I cherish my family and want better for us than what is considered to be "mainstream" food, medicine, etc. I've learned so much recently, thanks to the internet. Without this resource, I have no clue where I would have gotten so much good info. I say this because even our supposedly "fabulous" library system is seriously lacking in good anti-mainstream material. I say it's a conspiracy.

Which brings me to my point. My 4yo son is circumcised. When I was gathering information during my pregnancy, I never spent much time on the internet. I had a husband, toddler, and home to care for. I relied on professionals I trusted - my doctor, the pediatrician I had selected, nurses, and books at the library. The advice I got? Circumcise. It's better for their health, the baby feels no pain (just a pinch from the shot), etc, etc, etc. And I asked questions. I was NEVER told about the horrible truth.

I applaud everyone's activism. This is the ONLY way information like this will ever get in front of those who need it most. I have many friends who spend almost NO time on the internet - they, too, are uninformed and would find most of the info on this entire website new. How can they regret their decisions if they have no concept of what they've done? People NEED to KNOW about these things!!!

Just please remember that even folks who WANT and TRY to get informed about good food/medicine/health, etc, and who truly want the best for their families, can be led down the wrong path. I deeply regret quite a few decisions I made as a new mom - circ, vaccines, food choices, medical choices, etc. I am haunted by the feeling that I've done so much harm. But, I figure that being on the right path now counts for something.

This thread makes me wonder if I've ever run into anyone in these last 4 years who's only thought was "That woman is a barbarian," without knowing a thing about me other than the fact that I allowed my son to be circumcised. :

MY children will be armed with information. I pray (and and feel certain) that they will forgive the choices I made, and hope that they will make better choices for their own children. I can't change the past, but I sure can work to change the future. That's what activism is about, right?

Lauren


You are the kind of momma we hope all circ-ing mommas turn out to be.

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#43 of 47 Old 10-25-2007, 10:38 AM
 
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Sara, I don't judge people who circumcise based on their skin color, religion or culture, I judge the fact they cut their babies/children (my culture is included in that). Judging circumcision is the same as judging any other abuse or atrocity. I can't fathom many people suggesting we not judge pedophilia or child beating. Judging can and has pushed people to start social movements, judging isn't evil. It is a normal response to horrible things and it can lead to progress and change.

I am so glad people judged slavery and had the courage to fight against it. There are many more examples I could use here.

OUR DAUGHTERS ARE PROTECTED SHOULDN'T OUR SONS BE TOO! :
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#44 of 47 Old 10-25-2007, 10:43 AM
 
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Sara, I don't judge people who circumcise based on their skin color, religion or culture, I judge the fact they cut their babies/children (my culture is included in that). Judging circumcision is the same as judging any other abuse or atrocity. I can't fathom many people suggesting we not judge pedophilia or child beating. Judging can and has pushed people to start social movements, judging isn't evil. It is a normal response to horrible things and it can lead to progress and change.

I am so glad people judged slavery and had the courage to fight against it. There are many more examples I could use here.
I understand that.

What I'm saying is that "when I see Americans, my gorge rises" is NOT a form of that. That's racism. The correct way to approach it is "when I see someone who has circed their child without regrets, my gorge rises" is a TOTALLY different situation. And the former was what I was hearing and what upsets me.

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#45 of 47 Old 10-25-2007, 10:47 AM
 
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Oh, I understand what you are saying now.

OUR DAUGHTERS ARE PROTECTED SHOULDN'T OUR SONS BE TOO! :
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#46 of 47 Old 10-25-2007, 04:34 PM
 
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Originally Posted by wife&mama View Post
I recently joined this forum, and have just in the last few months started diligent research on living a healthier, more natural life. I cherish my family and want better for us than what is considered to be "mainstream" food, medicine, etc. I've learned so much recently, thanks to the internet. Without this resource, I have no clue where I would have gotten so much good info. I say this because even our supposedly "fabulous" library system is seriously lacking in good anti-mainstream material. I say it's a conspiracy.

Which brings me to my point. My 4yo son is circumcised. When I was gathering information during my pregnancy, I never spent much time on the internet. I had a husband, toddler, and home to care for. I relied on professionals I trusted - my doctor, the pediatrician I had selected, nurses, and books at the library. The advice I got? Circumcise. It's better for their health, the baby feels no pain (just a pinch from the shot), etc, etc, etc. And I asked questions. I was NEVER told about the horrible truth.

I applaud everyone's activism. This is the ONLY way information like this will ever get in front of those who need it most. I have many friends who spend almost NO time on the internet - they, too, are uninformed and would find most of the info on this entire website new. How can they regret their decisions if they have no concept of what they've done? People NEED to KNOW about these things!!!

Just please remember that even folks who WANT and TRY to get informed about good food/medicine/health, etc, and who truly want the best for their families, can be led down the wrong path. I deeply regret quite a few decisions I made as a new mom - circ, vaccines, food choices, medical choices, etc. I am haunted by the feeling that I've done so much harm. But, I figure that being on the right path now counts for something.

This thread makes me wonder if I've ever run into anyone in these last 4 years who's only thought was "That woman is a barbarian," without knowing a thing about me other than the fact that I allowed my son to be circumcised. :

MY children will be armed with information. I pray (and and feel certain) that they will forgive the choices I made, and hope that they will make better choices for their own children. I can't change the past, but I sure can work to change the future. That's what activism is about, right?

Lauren


When you know better, you do better.

Posts like yours are the reason why I am furious at the American medical establishment. It is nothing short of malpractice the way they continue to mislead so many parents about the reality of circumcision.
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#47 of 47 Old 10-25-2007, 08:13 PM
 
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My post is being taken as a pro-circ post? :



LOL, it was sarcastic but it brought up the point I wanted to make, that FGM cultures get condemned regularly, but when it comes to MGM cultures, we're told they shouldn't be condemned and should be respected.
No, I didn't think that your post was pro-circ. Far from it! I just thought they were coming down on you a little too hard. For what it's worth, I agree with you. We have blinders on when it comes to our own traditions.
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