For those of you considering circumcision... - Mothering Forums
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#1 of 68 Old 10-19-2007, 08:41 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Consider getting these three e-mails from your son 21 years later... P.S. I personally wrote these e-mails to my mother. I love her more than anything in this world, which is why I cannot imagine why she did this to me. If you want to know what I really felt after I realized what had been done to me, read the e-mails below. Eventually, every intact boy will accept the beautiful body that god gave him. Just keep in your mind that if you do circumcise your son, he may feel like I have felt (an incomplete, mutilation of his man-hood, and the denial of erotic sensation, with can cause eternal dispair). If you ask a circumcised man if he has pleasure during sex, the answer will be yes. It will be an 8 out of 10. It's always an 8 out of 10. I have attempted reconstruction of my penis and let me assure you that the circumcised penis with an inner foreskin and a moist sensitive glans is at least 5 times better than a penis without. I suspect, although cannot confirm that an uncircumcised penis is 5 times more sensitive than mine (as a conservatively mutilated individual). You never know what you've lost unless you had it to begin with. Read the e-mails.

---

I've been furious over this for the last few years and I need to tell someone. It's abhorrent and disgusting, and usually performed without any anesthesia. The medical reasons are all bullsh*t if you read more than one sentence on anything. It is nothing short of mutilation of the most precious and natural part of being a human being, and I will never get to really experience it. I feel betrayed and violated by both of my parents, and for my own sake, I need you to know that this will bother me until I die. Every day I take a shower it is all I think about. This was stolen from me, and all for absolutely bogus retarded arguments that any sane first year med student would dismiss. I can't wear clothes without constantly feeling uncomfortable. I thought this was normal and apparently it's not. For someone who finished medical school and law school, your ignorance is staggering... Apparently the word "liberty" is not in the constitution, and the hippocratic oath doesn't really exist. You say you believe in protecting helpless children. Well I don't understand how any caring human being could possibly allow this to happen. You have no
idea.

Read this... All of it.
http://norm.org/lost.html

Your son.

---------------------------

answer my g*d damn e-mail...

---------------------------

You don't know the unbeleivable inexcusable damage that you have caused me as a person and as a physical being of this world. If you refuse to acknowledge even the slightest responsibility for my mutilation, than we will not be talking again. I love you, but what you did was inexcusable. You have made a horrible mistake. The most sensual and erotic part of my body has been carelessly and painfully excised from my body and tossed into the trash as a worthless piece of sh*t. My sexuality is gone forever, and I have been denied my birth-right to not be scraped cut and abused with pain that you cannot possibly imagine during your existence in this world. It was my d*mn body and you made my entire life a black-and-white film of what could have been a beautiful colorful and sensual experience. You can believe what you want, but what you did was wrong, unforgivable, disgusting, a violation of every basic tenant of human rights, and a disgrace to the human race. I would rather be dead than accept what you forced upon me as an acceptable part of this existence. You betrayed me in the worst imaginable way. I hate what you did to me. You said you will never get over Paul, well I pray to god that you will never get over this.
...

Goodbye Mom
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#2 of 68 Old 10-19-2007, 09:08 PM
 
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#3 of 68 Old 10-19-2007, 09:12 PM
 
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I made the very poor choice of circing my older son. I am so afraid that this is how he feels too. I have apologized to him through the wazoo and told him it was the biggest %&$# up I have ever made as his mother, without a doubt. I just don't know what else to do.

M : proud mama to B (16) : and G (8) and : x 2 :
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#4 of 68 Old 10-19-2007, 09:22 PM
 
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Have your parents replied to you?
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#5 of 68 Old 10-19-2007, 09:26 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I just wish I knew why this happened to me... I've never been a bad person! I just want to understand why-- I love her so much but I can never forgive her. I want to so bad but I've had a glimpse of what she took away from me. I love her so much... I love her so much I just want to know why-- why this had to happen

I love her! I don't know, my dad doesn't know, no one knows what they've lost, but it's so much-- no one wants to admit what happened to them, and no one wants to admit that there is anything wrong with themselves, its an endless cycle of abuse. it's normal so the boy is abused, he's abused and thinks it's normal. god, i just wish it had happened by accident, or by my own intent.

the most sensitive part of my penis is the inner foreskin. i was lucky and it was left almost entirely intact. in a bris most men are completely stripped of this. i could never imagine what this was like, and i can't help but beleive that i will never know what is like to be intact, just like the man with absolutely no foreskin, will never know what it is like to have an inner foreskin.. i feel cheated and robbed--- just know it is not your fault, but let people know-- foreskin is not skin, it is the male sex organ which is ripped (litterally) away from the penis in an excrutiantingly painful "procedure".

If I have a son I will never let him go what I have been through.

If you really want your son to be circumcised, perform the procedure yourself. I gaurentee that you will collapse in tears just watching him suffer.
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#6 of 68 Old 10-19-2007, 09:28 PM - Thread Starter
 
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No, my parent (I only sent it to my mom, since my dad is circumcised, and would feel inferioir had he known what he was missing... plus it was my mom's decision for "health reasons" and "so I would look like my dad") has not responded. If you are considering it for these reasons please stop! He can always get it done later if he wants

I only wish my parents could have felt the dispair the have caused me. "It's not fair" is a stupid arguement, but I cuold accept my genitals being cut off because of foreign nationals, I could accept my genitals being deformed because of disease... I cannot accept my genitals being deformed because my mom thought it was pretty.
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#7 of 68 Old 10-19-2007, 09:42 PM
 
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I made the very poor choice of circing my older son. I am so afraid that this is how he feels too. I have apologized to him through the wazoo and told him it was the biggest %&$# up I have ever made as his mother, without a doubt. I just don't know what else to do.
I think acknowledging it and apologizing is huge, mama. Big hugs for you...

To the OP, I'm so so sorry :

Stephanie ~ Mama to Avery (7/07) & Iona (3/10)
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#8 of 68 Old 10-19-2007, 10:03 PM
 
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I just wish I knew why this happened to me... I've never been a bad person! I just want to understand why--
Well, the simplest way to answer this is, she thought she was doing what was best for you... or at the very least, didn't think it would harm you. My mom for instance, didn't really like the idea of the procedure, but when she had my older brother (early 80s), it was just what you did, the doctors recommended it and people she knew did it. Yea, she knew it would hurt, but from her perspective, it would be worth it in the long run.

After going through the procedure with my older brother, she regretted it, but again, thought it was for the best. I think she was a bit more against it when I was born, but my dad wanted the procedure done, and since he had the penis (which is intact....), it was done and the same for both my younger brothers.

For you, (i am guessing from your bris comment), your parents also had the religious reasons. I dont agree with forcing religion, but they still thought they were doing what was best according to their faith.

Yea, if my dad thought circ was so great he should have gotten it done, or if they would have realized if I wanted it done I can always get it done later maybe things would be different, but that is what happened. For me, the most annoying part of all this, is what is going on NOW.... why isn't the procedure stopped, that is what needs changed. We know better now and people still do it.
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#9 of 68 Old 10-19-2007, 10:27 PM - Thread Starter
 
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No, my penis was deformed for "medical reasons". Third trimester abortion and neonatal male circumcision are the same to me. Both cause irreparable nerve damage, and excruciating pain. The only difference is one baby is freed into the void while the other is required to live his life, knowing every time he takes a shower that his parents have accidentally (hopefully) violated him in a fundamental and most idiotic way.
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#10 of 68 Old 10-19-2007, 10:40 PM
 
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I'm leaving circumcision alone in this. I'm going to talk to you about your mother.

What did you hope to get from your mother when you sent her these emails?

I ask because it's not clear to me, reading them, what response you want. You tell her that she hurt you incredibly and caused you unbearable pain, shame, discomfort, and loss of sensation. You say you'd rather be dead than the way you are now (a statement which would have me, as a mother, scrambling to get you into treatment for mental illness). And frankly, when people send me emails about how much I've hurt and betrayed them, complete with threats never to speak to me again, I don't feel that their claims to love me are terribly credible.

It was sweet of you to let your dad off the hook because you don't want to make him feel inferior about the sexual sensation he's missing, but it doesn't seem terribly fair to me. Should he not have protected you? It comes off looking as if you are just determined to beat up on your mother.

You're angry at your mom. That's understandable. You've issued her a bunch of ultimatums. Those never go well.

Your mother made a decision with the information she had at the time. As do we all. Your claim that "any sane first-year med student" would dismiss her reasons for circing is clearly false - all the non-circing mamas here can tell you, in detail, all about the apparently rational, fully qualified DOCTORS who think that circumcision is, at worst, harmless. There's a whole entire recent medical study about how circumcision prevents HIV, which is being used to pressure parents to circumcise. Every time a non-circed boy gets a UTI, his parents can be reasonably certain of hearing that they should get the kid circumcised to fix it. Sane, medically trained people make these recommendations.

Your mother's decision was not made in a vacuum, it was made in a culture imbued with all kinds of systemic violence. This violence is *still* presented, not just to parents, but to everybody, as unavoidable in its specifics. She was probably told (as many parents still are) that uncircumcised boys were doomed to shame and social isolation. She was probably told (as many parents still are) that if her sons were bullied, teased, tortured, that there would be nothing she could do to protect them without stunting their growth. She didn't have better informational resources 21 years ago than the vast majority of mothers (including mothers with medical degrees) have today.

She certainly does not have a perfect source of advice on how to deal with either your pain or your correspondence.
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#11 of 68 Old 10-19-2007, 10:41 PM
 
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I understand the anger, but I don't see where attacking your mom is going to help you here. Chances are she bought the party line that circ was necessary or painless or both. My son is intact, but if I'd had him ten years earlier he wouldn't have been. I simply wouldn't have had the first idea that there was a reason to disbelieve the medical community about this. We all as parents learn as we go. Stories like yours help us learn. Trashing your mom probably doesn't accomplish much, though.
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#12 of 68 Old 10-19-2007, 10:50 PM
 
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I also want to gently suggest that you work through some of your feelings about this before you enter into another sexual relationship. I can imagine that if I had been your partner as a young woman, I might have been very frightened by the vehemence with which you find sex unsatisfying.

I do have enormous sympathy. I wish no babies were EVER circ'd, and I did not and would not do it to my own. And I also want to encourage you to find ways to help your anger not get in the way of pleasure and love, which you deserve in your life.
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#13 of 68 Old 10-19-2007, 11:16 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I don't know... I just want my life back.. I want to know that she could never do such a thing to me. I want to know that society would not encourage her to do such a thing to me. I want to know that people have empathy and care about me. I want to know that soceity would have excruciating empathy with a helpless child that has such a traumatic event forced upon him. I want to know that in this day and age such barbaric practices don't excist, and that I can live my sexual life as a normal human being.

Of course none of these things are true. The world is not fair, babies do not have the same rights as anyone even a year older. I don't want my mom to suffer, I just need someone to know how much they hurt me. I've spent three years saying nothing. I've been in a periodic state of depression. My own selfish sense needs someone to know that they made a mistake.

Sure my dad made a mistake too-- but my dad doesn't really care about anyone. Ironically it is the person I care about most who is the only person who will listen to me, who will feel guilty, and eventually who will alleviate me of the pain I have been holding inside about what was inflicted upon me.

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What did you hope to get from your mother when you sent her these emails?

I ask because it's not clear to me, reading them, what response you want. You tell her that she hurt you incredibly and caused you unbearable pain, shame, discomfort, and loss of sensation. You say you'd rather be dead than the way you are now (a statement which would have me, as a mother, scrambling to get you into treatment for mental illness). And frankly, when people send me emails about how much I've hurt and betrayed them, complete with threats never to speak to me again, I don't feel that their claims to love me are terribly credible.

It was sweet of you to let your dad off the hook because you don't want to make him feel inferior about the sexual sensation he's missing, but it doesn't seem terribly fair to me. Should he not have protected you? It comes off looking as if you are just determined to beat up on your mother.

You're angry at your mom. That's understandable. You've issued her a bunch of ultimatums. Those never go well.

Your mother made a decision with the information she had at the time. As do we all. Your claim that "any sane first-year med student" would dismiss her reasons for circing is clearly false - all the non-circing mamas here can tell you, in detail, all about the apparently rational, fully qualified DOCTORS who think that circumcision is, at worst, harmless. There's a whole entire recent medical study about how circumcision prevents HIV, which is being used to pressure parents to circumcise. Every time a non-circed boy gets a UTI, his parents can be reasonably certain of hearing that they should get the kid circumcised to fix it. Sane, medically trained people make these recommendations.

Your mother's decision was not made in a vacuum, it was made in a culture imbued with all kinds of systemic violence. This violence is *still* presented, not just to parents, but to everybody, as unavoidable in its specifics. She was probably told (as many parents still are) that uncircumcised boys were doomed to shame and social isolation. She was probably told (as many parents still are) that if her sons were bullied, teased, tortured, that there would be nothing she could do to protect them without stunting their growth. She didn't have better informational resources 21 years ago than the vast majority of mothers (including mothers with medical degrees) have today.

She certainly does not have a perfect source of advice on how to deal with either your pain or your correspondence.
Above all is the overwhelming sense of loss. This is something that no man who knows what happened to him can truely cure. If he is lucky enough to never realize or recognize what happened to him, then he is exceptionally lucky. However, I beleive that most of us are either in a sense of denial or deep sense of regret. It is the denial that perpetuates the procedure. Despite what some beleive, religion does not alleviate your responcibility to keep your children intact. Medically, the situation is the same. You would not cut off a woman's breast simply because it MAY develop cancer, in the same way that I would hope society and my mom in particular would not cut off part of my penis because it may (1 in 10,000) develop penal cancer. The whole thing is unbeleivably barbaric, and I have yet to meet anyone who has shown me different.

She may have been "dupped by the party line", but it is not her, but I that must live with the consequences of that decision. The sensation is paramount to being raped and for [at least] 50% of your gentials to be cut up and thrown in the trash. If considered, it is a deep and emotional betrayal of the person who is closest to you. I try to not blame anyone for anything, but it is so difficult in the case that the (albeit accidental) betrayer is the person closest to you in this world. It may be more difficult that you realize. Most men never deal with this because they vehemently avoid thinking about the true nature of their circumcision.
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#14 of 68 Old 10-19-2007, 11:25 PM
 
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I am so very sorry for your physical losses and your emotional pain.

I have to echo the previous posters, though. I know it hurts tremendously to believe that your mother deliberately hurt you, but I think you have to understand where she was at the time you were born, not where she might be now if she were to have another son. It really is only in the last couple of years with the widespread availability of information on the internet that the truth about circumcision is FINALLY getting out there. For years and years -- generations, really -- ALL the information about circ was positive. It was the rare parent, and the even rarer doctor, who decided against/advised against circumcision. The media, parenting books, medical journals -- all full of the party line about circumcision.

I don't think it's fair to blame your mother for making a bad decision based on bad information, when really -- where was she supposed to get better information?

I also don't think it's fair to let your dad off the hook. If he was fine with his circed status -- why was your mom supposed to figure out that circ was bad?

And in the final analysis, the ones who REALLY deserve the blame are the doctors and our circ-happy society that's been pushing circ for over a hundred years.

As Margaret Mead, the renowned anthropologist, once said -- if a fish were an anthropologist, the last thing it would discover would be water. In other words, if you grow up living and breathing something as truth -- how are you even to know that what you know is true down to your bones might be wrong?

I hope you can find it in your heart to have a real conversation with your mother. It may be incredibly hard for her to admit she and your dad made a terrible mistake, but try to understand -- I am 100% positive she did not deliberately harm you. I am 100% positive she did what she thought was in your best interest, and there was no one and nothing to tell her otherwise.

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#15 of 68 Old 10-19-2007, 11:36 PM
 
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Originally Posted by PAXIMPERIA View Post
I don't know... I just want my life back.. I want to know that she could never do such a thing to me. I want to know that society would not encourage her to do such a thing to me. I want to know that people have empathy and care about me. I want to know that soceity would have excruciating empathy with a helpless child that has such a traumatic event forced upon him. I want to know that in this day and age such barbaric practices don't excist, and that I can live my sexual life as a normal human being.

Of course none of these things are true. The world is not fair, babies do not have the same rights as anyone even a year older. I don't want my mom to suffer, I just need someone to know how much they hurt me. I've spent three years saying nothing. I've been in a periodic state of depression. My own selfish sense needs someone to know that they made a mistake.

Sure my dad made a mistake too-- but my dad doesn't really care about anyone. Ironically it is the person I care about most who is the only person who will listen to me, who will feel guilty, and eventually who will alleviate me of the pain I have been holding inside about what was inflicted upon me.
You want your life back? Who has it now?

Your mother cannot alleviate your pain at this point. She can't give you your foreskin back. She can't reform your opinion about sex and pleasure and what was done to your body. That is not to say that nothing can be done - I would encourage you to find a therapist with some experience in these issues - but it is not work that your mother can undertake.
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#16 of 68 Old 10-20-2007, 12:09 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I hope you can find it in your heart to have a real conversation with your mother. It may be incredibly hard for her to admit she and your dad made a terrible mistake, but try to understand -- I am 100% positive she did not deliberately harm you. I am 100% positive she did what she thought was in your best interest, and there was no one and nothing to tell her otherwise
I know that she had nothing but good intentions when she ordered it. Still, I can't help but feel a sense of loss. I... part of it is jealousy that my step-brother wil never go through the same thing... try to understand that it is not that I want her to suffer, as much as I need someone to acknowledge my loss. and in case you're still not convinced their is a loss, there most certianly is a loss of way over half of the sexual tissue. I just feel like she should have known better. Had I been in the 1960's I still would never have consented to having anything cut off my newborn baby. Even if I had not had an instintual aversion to this, I would still spend days researching every intricate detail of the procedure. after all, it's going to affect him for the rest of his life?

perhaps (or rather most definately) my view is biased. there is no way I could truely predict what I would have done under the same circumstances. however... it's just not right. i'm frustrated that she just couldn't see that. i believe in evolution, which states that "if it aint broke, don't fix it". I wasn't broke, she "fixed" it anyway. shes got a law degree, and shes a cardiologist. if anyone could understand, she could, and yet she didn't. our society didn't. i have an inevitable anger and i don't know where to place it--
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#17 of 68 Old 10-20-2007, 12:20 AM
 
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PAXIMPERIA,

I know first-hand about the passion surrounding the anti-circ movement, but wow, you are coming on incredibly strong.

I'm hearing a lot about how you "feel" like your sex life has been stripped of your, your life void of meaning etc. Have you suffered from any real, physical trauma from circ? Like tight erections, skin bridges, skin breaks etc?

Cause if not, I think for your sanity and health, you should recognize that was done to you was wrong, express that to your mother, but move forward with your life.
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#18 of 68 Old 10-20-2007, 12:25 AM
 
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I think it's interesting, and disheartening, the viciousness that is unleashed upon mothers about this subject, while fathers get off basically scot free.

I would suggest to the OP that you think long and hard about this rage toward your mother, and the ignoring/justifying/minimizing of your father's responsibility in this.

I hear that you feel he would not care about it, and that you are concerned about highlighting his 'deficiency' as he too is circed. But, why use your mother's caring as a lure to unleash this torrent of venom upon her? And why spare your father's feelings, but not your mother's?
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#19 of 68 Old 10-20-2007, 12:32 AM - Thread Starter
 
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If you want to know the truth, I decided to start using moisturizer on the Glans of my penis. After several weeks I noticed that I could not wear underwear without intense discomfort with every step I took. In the shower, the newly sensitive glans hurt even when beads of water hit the tip. However, the orgasms were amazing, like nothing I had ever experienced. This is what made me realize, A. I could never continue what I was doing because it was incredibly painful on a day to day basis (having a sensitized glans exposed), B. that when the glans wasn't exposed, it is extraordinarily sensitive, and C. that the glans and inner foreskin, which are both incredibly sensitive, are not as sesitive as the primary sexual skin in the intact penis, the frenar band. The frenar band is almost always removed during circumcision. The moisturized glans made me realize that there was something intensely special that I was missing, and the lack of all of the other sensitive structures of the penis made me regret and despise my parents decision. Even today, I need to decide between comparatively boring ejaculations to extraordinary ones but constant pain from the abraision with the underwear, all because my mother made this stupid decision 20 years ago. This dilemma will effect me for the remainder of my life-- that is a really, really, really long time for someone who doesn't beleive in the after-life. It's perminant, intensely sexual (as i have found) and if it's intensely sexual it's also invariably intensely painful to walk every step of every day, because the foreskin is not protecting the glans. Keep in mind the glans is only sensitive if it is kept moist using vaseline or another method for several weeks, but it is amazing and intensely stimulating. This has made me wonder what else has been missing all my life due to this surgical "procedure". At least from what I've read, the frenar band is the most sensitive part of a mans penis. It is gone forever, stolen from me at birth, and a distinct pleasure of this life that I will never be able to experience. That is what really bothers me.

By the way, the frenar band is only one of many many nerve endings that all add together to create an enriching (but usually not pre-ejaculatory) sensory extraordinary experience. Most of the sensitive portions of the male penis are lost to circumcisions, there are numerous studies showing that.
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#20 of 68 Old 10-20-2007, 12:39 AM
 
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Have you considered restoration? You will be able to maintain that sensitivity while gaining the protection against constant irritation when not in use. Of course it will never give you back all that you lost and will be a poor representation but it may help you in some ways both physically and psychologically.

You might even want to discuss the costs of surgical restoration with your mother AND father. They paid for the surgery to do this in the first place, perhaps you could convince them to contribute to the correction of their mistake.

Victim of Birth Rape & Coerced ribboncesarean.gifUnnecesareanribboncesarean.gif What makes people think they can cut up someone else's genitals? nocirc.gif
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#21 of 68 Old 10-20-2007, 12:41 AM
 
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If you want to know the truth, I decided to start using moisturizer on the Glans of my penis. After several weeks I noticed that I could not wear underwear without intense discomfort with every step I took. In the shower, the newly sensitive glans hurt even when beads of water hit the tip. However, the orgasms were amazing, like nothing I had ever experienced. This is what made me realize, A. I could never continue what I was doing because it was incredibly painful on a day to day basis (having a sensitized glans exposed), B. that when the glans wasn't exposed, it is extraordinarily sensitive, and C. that the glans and inner foreskin, which are both incredibly sensitive, are not as sesitive as the primary sexual skin in the intact penis, the frenar band. The frenar band is almost always removed during circumcision. The moisturized glans made me realize that there was something intensely special that I was missing, and the lack of all of the other sensitive structures of the penis made me regret and despise my parents decision. Even today, I need to decide between comparatively boring ejaculations to extraordinary ones but constant pain from the abraision with the underwear, all because my mother made this stupid decision 20 years ago. This dilemma will effect me for the remainder of my life-- that is a really, really, really long time for someone who doesn't beleive in the after-life. It's perminant, intensely sexual (as i have found) and if it's intensely sexual it's also invariably intensely painful to walk every step of every day, because the foreskin is not protecting the glans. Keep in mind the glans is only sensitive if it is kept moist using vaseline or another method for several weeks, but it is amazing and intensely stimulating. This has made me wonder what else has been missing all my life due to this surgical "procedure". At least from what I've read, the frenar band is the most sensitive part of a mans penis. It is gone forever, stolen from me at birth, and a distinct pleasure of this life that I will never be able to experience. That is what really bothers me.

By the way, the frenar band is only one of many many nerve endings that all add together to create an enriching (but usually not pre-ejaculatory) sensory extraordinary experience. Most of the sensitive portions of the male penis are lost to circumcisions, there are numerous studies showing that.
Ahh. Ok.

I was going to say, if you never had any way of knowing the difference, why torture yourself, but I understand a bit more now.
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#22 of 68 Old 10-20-2007, 12:46 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Actually I have. The foreskin restoration can never restore the most sensitive fenar band, but it can protect the glans from abrasion, making the previous conversation moot. Actually I've ordered one of these devices, and I feel that in a way it gives me a way to reclaim what was taken from me, in addition to the intensely sexual and new sensastions from the moist glans. Still, that leaves one-third (and most likely the most importiant one third missing). It helps, but does not alleviate my problem entirely. Keep in mind that I was lucky and retained almost all of the very sensitive inner foreskin. Normally it is removed fully of partially. This is part of what makes me so convinced that circumcision is universally undesireable. Had I been completely circumcised, with the entire foreskin removed, virtually every sexually sensitive spot on my penis would have been removed. The inner foreskin, the frenullum, the frenar band, the m. corpsucles, the glans would dry up and become unresponsive. Keep in mind that circ was designed to reduce or eliminate mastrubatory pleasure and sexual urges. It still serves that function perfectly well today.
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#23 of 68 Old 10-20-2007, 12:55 AM
 
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I think it's interesting, and disheartening, the viciousness that is unleashed upon mothers about this subject, while fathers get off basically scot free.
I find it disenheartening that the anger isn't at the medical establishement... and the person, the doctors that do this.... everyday.

In most cases (I have no idea about the posters mother of course) MOST of the mother are 'victims' who were told lies and mistruths to make them believe it is necessary to consent to harm. Most parents are coached to look at circumcision as something that causes some pain to prevent something 'worse'.

Someone has a siggie that says something like: circumcisoin is a violatoin of a child and a wound to the mother's heart... And I agree that in almost all cases circumcison is a wound to the mother because it causes her to neglect/deny her nurturing instincts. Some people will never heal from that wound and others will deny it. We don't know your mother well enough to know which or why, but YOU know your mother and though this makes things confusing and hard, it doesn't diminish the love you have felt from her.

I hope you can find out more about this, maybe your mom needs a little more time to process this. When did you confront her?

Your anger and pain is real and does not deserve to be diminished in ANY way... I'm just not sure that the fault lies soley on your mothers shoulders... and that is what I'm interpreting from your post.... I apologize if I've misunderstood.

Jessica

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#24 of 68 Old 10-20-2007, 01:07 AM - Thread Starter
 
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My mother is the medical establishment. She has performed circs before, most likely many of them, as has my father (who is also a doctor). The whole damn system is misinformed, the parents, the doctors, and more or less anyone else involved in the project. The male is very very worried/concerned/in denial about even the slight possibility that his manliness may be sub-par. Consequently he comes up with any and every excuse to justify, rationalize, and continue the practice because "it's perfectly normal". He needs to believe this, because anything otherwise would be absolutely devastating for your average man to accept. When I say devastating, I mean really devastating. Throw this in with the medically unnecessary but frequently touted medical "benefits" (ignoring entirely the medical disadvantages such as sexual insensitivity) of foreskin truncation, the fact that women circ their babies even 56% today, is not terribly suprising. However, it is terrible. If you discover what occurs during a circ, you may be very suprised. The very very very sensitive and raw glans is essentially ripped prematurely from the inner foreskin, years before it's appropriate seperation would occur naturally. Because the glans is dried up and insensitive because of the doctors own circ, he is likely to dismiss the babies pain in such a process (during circ). In fact, the silence after separating the glans from the inner foreskin is not calm placidness, but is in fact excruciating pain of such an enormous caliber that it causes the infant to cease breathing, or screaming, recessing into a deep state of trance to deal with the unbeleivable pain which is equivalent to stabbing your genitals with a sharp knife continuously.
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#25 of 68 Old 10-20-2007, 01:08 AM
 
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OP. I hope that you can channel your anger at your mother into the medical establishment as well and find ways to let them know how you feel. Your mother could only do what they told her to. Back when you were born there was no internet for most people. My mother had my brothers circed and it pains her greatly now that she knows what they lost. Maybe your mother feels the same way but dosnt know how to tell you.

 
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#26 of 68 Old 10-20-2007, 01:19 AM
 
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No one here will disagree with you for one second about the harms of circ. That's what we're here for -- to try to save babies. Believe me, a more educated bunch of men and women it would be hard to find!!!!!

I can understand that you're pissed beyond words at your mom (and I hope your dad, because honestly he has no better excuse than she does). But even if they are the medical establishment -- especially because they're the medical establishment -- you have to realize, their training was all about the dangers of the foreskin. It has only been in the last several years that the research has been done on the functions of the foreskin, its sensitivity, etc. Yeah, that should all be common sense -- but look at the incredible lack of knowledge of the female body that was perpetuated for many years, too. The whole Freudian BS about clitoral vs. vaginal orgasms, etc. and no one actually bothered to study the structure and function of the foreskin. The point is -- if all your training and education has taught you one thing, it's incredibly difficult if not impossible to question it.

Look at the whole ulcer thing. How now we know that ulcers are caused by bacterial infections, but it was "known" beyond a shadow of a doubt by the medical establishment for YEARS that it was spicy foods etc. that caused ulcers.

Or look at poor Ignatius Semmelweiz, who came up with the wacky theory that doctors shouldn't go from the dissecting rooms to the delivery ward without washing their hands, and literally ended his life in an insane asylum because he was laughed/shamed out of respectable medical circles.

The point is -- I don't think we should diminish for a second the responsibility that the medical profession has for a multitude of sins, from circumcision to the lamentable state of affairs that US childbirth is in today to god knows what we'll discover tomorrow is completely wrong, especially given that NOW the information to do things differently is widely available.

But you still have to recognize that your parents did what they thought was the right thing to do based on their education and training. It was wrong, but they didn't know it at the time. I am positive that they did not intend to hurt you. I only hope you can have a conversation with them now to help them see how much more we know, and how traumatized and violated you feel, without demonizing them for not knowing better than the rest of the medical establishment.

Come visit the NEW QuirkyBaby website -- earn QB Bucks rewards points for purchases, reviews, referrals, and more! Free US shipping on great brands of baby slings and carriers and FREE BabyLegs or babywearing mirror on orders of $100+. Take the QB Quiz for personalized advice!

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#27 of 68 Old 10-20-2007, 01:34 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Yeah.. It still sucks, but yeah.. I know it's not their fault and I think I'm almost done venting after the last few days. This is still something that I will never recover from-- but eventually I will learn to live with it.
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#28 of 68 Old 10-20-2007, 01:49 AM
 
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Paximperia,

Edited to add: the previous 2 posts were posted when I was writing this response... I'm a slow writer, so I think quirky made the point about drs training that I was trying to make

You are preaching to the choir here... this is the Case Against Circumcision, a pro-intact forum and most of us are well informed. I'm sorry your parents should know better. I'm sure they were trained that it was necessary, even if their instincts and logic should have shown them the truth. It is hard to find doctors that didn't get that type of info. Very hard.

Further exploration on the MDC forums will show you parallel deceptions-- women abused in their pregnancy and births-denied the truth and forced or compelled to accept interventions-- indeed many women have even physically been cut unnecessarily by episiotomy. And our babies are the victims of many other harmful practices that are unnecesary. Circumcisoin is by far the biggest atrocity (imo) but the whole birth culture in our society is extremely unsupportive of natural normal birth. It is easy for me \who doesn't know the people we are talking about or the exact situation to guess that yoru family just went along with the norms of the time, w/o thinking about it and w/o anyone stepping in to telll or get them to think about it. And to imagine a birth that left things to be desired and further trampled on the parenting instincts.... I certainly don't know, but I only try to make logical assumptions, and I'll admit I coudl be wrong. Did your mother have a wonderful amazing fully supported beautiful birth-- or did she also go through the system and was one who was left vulnerable???

My pedi 'bullied' me into giving my 1 day old son a hep b shot, even though I knew a little about it being unnecessary. I didn't have the fight left in me to stand up to my pedi-- even though I could have about circ... putting all my pregnanc energy into the circ battle left me under-resourced in supporting myself in other avenues-- so I lost my wish for a natural birth, had trouble breastfeeding, consented to unnecessary potentially harmful things such as hep b-- all because the SYSTEM is stacked against normal natural births. Had I had an amazing birth experience like I did with my daughter, I have a VERY strong suspicion I would have been able to stand up to my pedi and said, no thanks... etc. etc.

I have a sense that some of our posters (or lurkers) may first work through the issue personally before being able to move forward. But I do think that looking at the mother/birth expereince/ and circumcisoin practices are all important pieces of the puzzle. The sensations you have are certainly very different from most men, as well. I know my dh does not have the same sensations or frustrations, even though he is at a loss too. Your mother certainly would not expect this. I don't really know where I'm going with this....

We all focus on different aspects of the problem as there are many ways the lies and diseption reaches out to harm... just as there are many ways the truth also manifests. On this forum we area all reaching out and working for postive changes.
Many of us start advocating for a gentle pregancy and birth for our future generations, intactness being a huge part of that- not only for the baby but becaus it honours our parenting instincts too.

Jessica

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#29 of 68 Old 10-20-2007, 02:28 AM
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since your parents are your parents and doctors they only want what is best for you and they know more than anyone what it takes to rebuild a foreskin.you should definitely talk to them about this and they will probably find a doctor that can do the restoration and pay for it.
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#30 of 68 Old 10-20-2007, 03:10 AM
 
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I think the OP was intense. But I understand your anger. I understand it in a very very very far removed way.

I was given an episiotomy without consent after written and verbal refusal of said episiotomy.

That resident thought he was helping me. He made a mistake, he forgot I had said no. He is human.

The rage I feel towards him is irrational at times. The shooting pains that would wake me out of a dead sleep for a year afterwards made me want to find him and scream at him. I wanted to know why he felt like he could destroy my body, why he felt so powerful, why he went against all procedures. I know the answers to these questions. I am a nurse. I have seen situations get hectic, I have seen fellow professionals forget, make mistakes. I know why.

Truth is, I want him to look at me and apologize.

Will he? never. Because he would say all the reasons he did it. He would defend himself.

I may be off base, but if my mother had chosen to remove my clitoral hood because of medical advice and societla norms, and 27 years later I confronted her with the pain it has caused me..... I would want her to say, "i am so sorry I chose this for you, I was wrong".

Deep down we all know why things were done to us. But there is nothing more soothing than to have someone recognize our feelings.

I had a therapist say to me, "you were betrayed by someone in a position of power that you trusted. You are allowed to mourn that loss and cry for your pain"

it was like nothing Ive experienced. She validated that hurt in me, without once saying, "well he was helping" or "he thought he did whats best".

ya know?

I can tell you, the first time that I showered after giving birth and felt the huge episiotomy scar- I vomited, I felt mutilated, destroyed, like my womanhood had been turned into frakenstein.

Sometimes the shocking immediate realization of what has been done to us makes us go a little agro. Healing takes time.

OP, I hope you find your peace.

~jen~ )O( mama to k 07/05 o 5/08 and c 12/09
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