Urologist trying to convince me to cut! - Mothering Forums
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#1 of 25 Old 07-31-2003, 01:22 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Hello all! Just a quick update first....
Number #3 was born July 18 into a wonderful tub of warm water in a dimly lit room and was so peaceful, my midwife had trouble getting him to cry! Weighing in at 9lbs 14ozs, everything has been going well...until this past Sunday when I noticed new ds was not feeling well. By the evening, we were at Vanderbilt children's hospital where we still are for at least another 5 days...

DS apparently has a serious UTI infection that they believe is linked to a minor anatomic abnormality that is causing urinary reflux. We won't know more until the infection is cleared and a dye study can be conducted. SO....imagine my dismay when my visit from the "all-knowing" pediatric urologist produced the statement I feared most..."And once we determine the cause, we will probably want to go ahead and circumcise him to prevent this from continuing to happen".

So here I am, mad as h*ll at the ignorance of such a statement! Where is the logic here?? Hmm..there is an INTERNAL abnormality that needs to be corrected, so let's cut off 1/2 of his penis....

Anybody else encounter this "logic"?
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#2 of 25 Old 07-31-2003, 02:41 PM
 
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When all you've got is a hammer everything starts to look like a nail, you know?

I'd look into gettting a new neurologist and tell the old one and the hospital exactly why. The last thing a hurting little boy needs is more trauma and that idiot doctor ought to know that.

Strength to you and your baby boy!
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#3 of 25 Old 07-31-2003, 02:45 PM
 
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Hi Laura and welcome Drew! What a way to start off in life(the UTI I mean, his birth sounds wonderful!). And to add circumcision on to boot, poor little guy. I agree with you totally, why an external surgery to correct an internal abnormality? I think I have some info here for you, try these links.
http://www.nocirc.org/articles/fleiss2.html
http://www.cirp.org/library/disease/UTI/

Or maybe try contacting Marilyn Mylos(sp) of nocirc to get suggestons and maybe help to find a foreskin freindly doc in your area.
http://www.nocirc.org

I hope this resloves itself and your little man is feeling better real soon.
Take care,
Tara

Tara Momma to Callum and Gavin
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#4 of 25 Old 07-31-2003, 03:04 PM
 
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I would be searching for an intact friendly Dr to take over his case. I would never ever allow a circ happy Dr perform surgery on my child. You never know what they will do in there without your consent.

I'd even move my baby to another hospital if I couldn't find a supportive Dr where he is.

Sorry about your ds being sick.
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#5 of 25 Old 07-31-2003, 04:17 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by LauraPad
And once we determine the cause, we will probably want to go ahead and circumcise him to prevent this from continuing to happen".
Okay, so he doesn't know the cause but he knows how to prevent it from happening again? :
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#6 of 25 Old 07-31-2003, 05:39 PM
 
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Just so you know where the "UTI" thing came from, you can go to http://www.circumcisionquotes.com/ then click "the issues" in the blue menu bar and choose "UTI's/Preemies". All it takes is one bit of folklore like this about the intact penis and you see what happens!

I hope your baby gets well soon. I had UTI's and reflux as a kid and had the VCUG test done pretty regularly until I was 11 or so. This was before Wiswell's UTI's study, actually, but even so, being female nobody thought to suggest "circumcision".
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#7 of 25 Old 07-31-2003, 07:36 PM
 
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I would definitely contact Marilyn Milos. She is very willing to help answer all kinds of questions.

Marilyn Milos, RN, Director at www.nocirc.org
Post Office Box 2512
San Anselmo, CA 94979-2512
Phone: 415-488-9883
Fax: 415-488-9660

Her email address is nocirc@cris.com
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#8 of 25 Old 08-01-2003, 06:11 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by LauraPad
DS apparently has a serious UTI infection that they believe is linked to a minor anatomic abnormality that is causing urinary reflux. We won't know more until the infection is cleared and a dye study can be conducted. SO....imagine my dismay when my visit from the "all-knowing" pediatric urologist produced the statement I feared most..."And once we determine the cause, we will probably want to go ahead and circumcise him to prevent this from continuing to happen".
To check his knowledge and confidence: ask him if he's prepared to sign a legal document stating that he will pay for all consts of restoration for your son, plus a small extra fee (say, a couple of million dollars) if your son *ever* gets a UTI again. If he's confident that circumcision prevents UTIs, he should have no problem with doing that.
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#9 of 25 Old 08-01-2003, 04:03 PM - Thread Starter
 
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thanks for the links guys...I have been on nocirc's website to arm myself with information so that the RN's here didn't try to forcibly rectract Drew's penis to do the numerous cath's we've had. I'll will send Marliyn an email today to get armed with more info!

Do you guys not find it simply shocking that people act so blase about cutting off a large portion of my son's completely healthy genitals?!

We've already pissed off the staff enough by having the crib taken out of the room, a hospital bed brought in so I could co-sleep (had to sign a release form for that one!) and my wonderful partner packed my "Formula Sucks" tshirt to wear around.. He's wanting someone to say something, I think!
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#10 of 25 Old 08-01-2003, 05:09 PM
 
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Hi Laura,

I strongly suggest getting a second opinion. I was in the same boat a few years ago. Except my sons were 2 and 4 years old. They were having months (a year for the older boy) of problems with the foreskin being extremely small and tight. It would not retract, causing cracking, ripping, bleeding and extreme pain to the point they wouldn't pee cuz it hurt so bad. I seen the family doctor, an ER urologist and finally the third urologist who was wonderful. We tried for 5 months using steroid cremes, gently pulling back the foreskin, which just would not budge and my boys were miserable. And it would eventually have turned into problems with infections also. Of course, my husband and I were devastated. Most boys don't have problems like our boys did.

But we exhausted all other treatments before having to resort to circumcision. It was the worst experience my husband and I have ever been through and it was absolutely horrifying for our boys. The week after the surgeries was hell. We felt so bad for our boys and fear they will remember this traumatic event. Even though they are now 4 and 6 and never mention it. They are perfectly healthy, happy and normal in everyway. If we would have known back then what we know now, we probably would have had them circumcised right after birth. But it went against everything we believed in. And we had wonderful family doctors that encouraged us NOT to circumcise each boy after birth.

So ours was just a rare case where mother nature was not allowing things to grow and develop as they should. We couldn't see our kids keep suffering. Find yourself a good urologist who is going to work with you, helping you find other options and forms of treatment before resorting to such a traumatic surgery!

I'm not trying to scare you. But in our case, it had to be done.
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#11 of 25 Old 08-01-2003, 05:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by easymacmom
If we would have known back then what we know now, we probably would have had them circumcised right after birth.
My dd had her tonsils out at 2. It was horrific, for her and us. I guess we should have had her tonsils pulled out at birth, eh? (At least according to your logic.)
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#12 of 25 Old 08-01-2003, 06:07 PM
 
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Originally posted by mamajulie
My dd had her tonsils out at 2. It was horrific, for her and us. I guess we should have had her tonsils pulled out at birth, eh? (At least according to your logic.)
Wow - that's seems a little harsh directed at someone who explored every possibility in hopes of preventing circumcision for her sons and obviously feels terrible about the end result .
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#13 of 25 Old 08-01-2003, 06:08 PM
 
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T I thought doctors knew it takes till about age eight for the child's immune system to mature and were in agreement that prior to that time the tonsils are there to perform important functions.

Do they all have honing instruments on their desks ?
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#14 of 25 Old 08-01-2003, 06:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dragonfly
Wow - that's seems a little harsh directed at someone who explored every possibility in hopes of preventing circumcision for her sons and obviously feels terrible about the end result .

I also feel terrible that my dd had to have her tonsils out. We had numerous doctor visits and countless rounds of antibiotics before opting for surgery. However, just because a child MIGHT have a bad infection resulting in surgery doesn't mean that the very same surgery should be performed before the tissue has even become infected.

The "circumcision as prevention" statement is a fallacy. (Otherwise, we'd be taking out breast tissue of infants to prevent breast cancer, etc.)
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#15 of 25 Old 08-01-2003, 07:00 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by mamajulie
The "circumcision as prevention" statement is a fallacy. (Otherwise, we'd be taking out breast tissue of infants to prevent breast cancer, etc.)
Yes, in general it is. I think we all can agree with that. My point was that your sarcasm seemed unwarranted in light of this particular poster's feelings and circumstances. I imagine she's spent a lot of time wishing she could have prevented her boys from suffering through months and months of pain. In their cases, circumcision would have done just that and, so, it's no surprise that she would write that had she known then what she now knows, she would have had them circumcised at birth.

I don't know how I feel about that - personally, I think both would have caused suffering and pain and I don't know that I, with perfect hindsight, would wish the same thing. But I also think that sarcasm was pretty unsympathetic, as she is obviously not advocating circumcision as a proactive measure.
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#16 of 25 Old 08-01-2003, 08:23 PM
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Laura, you need to say to the doc, "If my child were a girl, how would you treat this UTI?"


DragonFly, the previous poster seems to think that circ would have been proactive for her children. It's precisely that kind of thinking that allows circ to be perpetuated in the general society.

I would guess that her sons had been prematurely retracted at some point in time, which led to their problems. If society as a whole had a better understanding of the functions/role/nature of the foreskin, fewer boys would end up with circs, both as infants and as older children.

Why is it perfectly acceptable to say, "I wish I had their foreskins cut off at birth," yet it suddenly becomes "harsh and sarcastic" to say, "I wish I had my dd's tonsil tissue cut at birth"? Is it because society values tonsil tissue more than foreskins, so you can't possibly think I'm serious?? After all, my dd would have been spared the traumatizing, painful, under-general-anesthesia surgery at the age of 2 if I had let the doctors remove that tissue at birth.

(But....perhaps.......tonsil removal----and circumcision---also would have been painful, traumatic, and even unnecessary at birth?)


Back to you, Laura, sorry to go off-topic on your thread.
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#17 of 25 Old 08-01-2003, 08:34 PM
 
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I in no way intended to promote circumcision. More than anything, we did not want circumcision for either of our boys. But in the end it was the only option. I failed to mention that my youngest, did have problems with infections, and we tried anti-biotics also. I whole-heartedly support non-circumcision. I just wanted to let her know that she wasn't alone and encourage her to exhaust all other options in hope that they work instead of resorting to circumcision.

For us, we also think it may have something to do with heredity. My father in-law was circumcised in late childhood, then had to have it done again last year at age 79. The doctor said this is very common to see in older people, especially those who've never been circumcised. They are more prone to problems later in life. Oh gosh, please don't take this the wrong way! I'm not trying to support circumcision!!!! I'm simply sharing facts with you all! I'm really not trying to make anyone mad. I'm just sharing my experience. I'm new here and will be more careful how I choose my words from now on.

Our doctors told us that boys who aren't circumcised will have a much better sex life later on as they are 10 times more sensitive to the touch! Wooo-hoooh!!
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#18 of 25 Old 08-01-2003, 08:41 PM
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EasyMacMom,

Welcome, we're glad to have you here at MDC. I mean no personal disrespect, really. (It was your statement I was after, not you personally!!)

Please, however, remember that you are currently posting on a board titled, "The Case AGAINST Circumcision." (Caps mine).

So, it is inappropriate, IMHO, to make a statement such as, "In retrospect we should have had them circ'd at birth." Your story is a tragic one, but your conclusion is erroneous, I think.

Even if some boys end up circ'd because all other options have been exhausted (and hopefully the docs did their best for you), I would hate for other mothers to read your story and somehow get the impression that all boys should be circ'd at birth. That's exactly what we're fighting against!

Were you ever told to push back their foreskins? (Or did a doc ever push back their foreskins?) That is one reason some boys end up with the problems you described. (It's not uncommon for a boy to not reach retractability until puberty.)
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#19 of 25 Old 08-01-2003, 08:50 PM
 
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mamajulie - I think we are misunderstanding one another. I believe your sarcasm (if you didn't intend it that way, my apologies... it certainly seemed as such) would have been totally appropriate directed at someone who was actually promoting circumcision. Easymacmom wasn't, and was sharing a painful story.... this is why I thought your comment was harsh.

I think perhaps there is a tendency to miss the human element of posts here, as this is such an emotional subject. Anyway, I'll leave it there as I've already spent enough time off-topic.
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#20 of 25 Old 08-01-2003, 08:50 PM
 
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: Sorry, not only new here, but have little time on-line. Will make sure I know what I'm posting into. Both doctors told us not to touch the foreskin, leave it alone, it will retract on its own. Just keep it clean. It's one thing we've been beating ourselves up over, cuz when this came about we heard many other parents ask the same thing. But we didn't know, all other boys in our families were all cricumcised at birth. I'll give it a rest. Again sorry for not paying more attention.
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#21 of 25 Old 08-01-2003, 08:52 PM
 
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Why was it a problem that the foreskins didn't retract at the ages of 2-4 anyway? I agree sounds like they had been forcibly retracted at some point?

sorry, only little girls at this house and my only experience with intact penises are on grown men
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#22 of 25 Old 08-01-2003, 10:01 PM
 
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Dear easymacmom -

First off - welcome to the boards.

I'm sorry you (and your sons) had to go through this. I have no idea if it will help but, I'd like to share the following (fully-referenced) articles addressing some common medical concerns (which I printed for my personal files for future reference as my last-born is intact.)
http://www.mothering.com/10-0-0/html...cision85.shtml

- and -

Protect Your Uncircumcised Son: Expert Medical Advice for Parents
Quote:
The attachment of the foreskin and glans is nature's way of protecting the undeveloped glans from premature exposure. Detachment is a normal physiological process that can take up to two decades to complete. By the end of puberty, the foreskin will have detached from the glans because hormones that are produced in great quantities at puberty help with the process. There is no age by which a child's foreskin must be fully separated from the glans.
http://www.mothering.com/10-0-0/html...rcson103.shtml

No need to apologize as this is indeed one hot topic.

off topic ps. I'm aghast some old-school doctors would remove the tonsils from a two-year-old Can you hear them sharpening their scalpels whilst you wait in the inner office ?

To Laura - I do believe you need to fight with all your might to prevent this circ from happening. How will circumcision prevent UTI's ? Ask. The foreskin protects in so many ways. Ways the medical establishment doesn't yet comprehend.
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#23 of 25 Old 08-01-2003, 11:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by easymacmom
Both doctors told us not to touch the foreskin, leave it alone, it will retract on its own. Just keep it clean. It's one thing we've been beating ourselves up over, cuz when this came about we heard many other parents ask the same thing. But we didn't know, all other boys in our families were all cricumcised at birth.
I'm sorry for jumping on you. I do get emotional about this topic!

I'm confused here, though.....did you follow the docs' advice to leave the foreskin alone, or you got that advice too late?

I'm learning, too, and I'm just wondering if my assumption is correct that your sons were forcibly retracted at some point.

Because, if that's the case, there is certainly no need to beat yourself up about it (you didn't know any better), but it would definitely mean that the hindsight-choice to make would be leaving the foreskins alone, rather than getting an infant circ done, right?

Off-topic.....Last Minute, who knows whether or not the tonsilectomy (spelling?) was absolutely necessary or not. She had somewhere around eight separate cases of strep throat in the few months before the surgery, and zero afterward. (Of course, if I had breastfed her longer, that certainly would have improved her immune system! )

But, my very long, drawn out point was that AT LEAST she had tonsils for two years. That was better than nothing. We tried to let her keep them.

And, for EasyMacMom, at least she tried to keep her sons intact, and at least they had their foreskins in the diaper-wearing years, which is better than having circ'd them in infancy for no good reason. (And their very first experiences of being outside the womb didn't involve the cutting of their genitals.)

P.S. Back to Laura.........have you contacted Marilyn Milos of NoCirc yet? She is wonderful and I imagine she could give you some good advice.
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#24 of 25 Old 08-02-2003, 02:23 AM
 
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off topic ps. I'm aghast some old-school doctors would remove the tonsils from a two-year-old Can you hear them sharpening their scalpels whilst you wait in the inner office ?

Mine were removed at three. Scary experience for one so young.
Take care,
Tara

Tara Momma to Callum and Gavin
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#25 of 25 Old 08-04-2003, 11:41 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Ok...so here is the tonsilectomy story from H**l!...

My partner's father was one of 18 children, and he was born at home and not circ'd...when he was 12, he went in to have his tonsils removed and while he was under, the surgeon circumcised him for no reason!! He didn't get permission from his parent's or anything! Chad's dad just woke up and no longer had tonsils or foreskin after having both for 12 years!!

Can you imagine?!?
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