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#31 of 58 Old 11-21-2007, 02:55 AM
 
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I really dont think circ is necessary, but I dont feel strongly enough about it to say "NO. and THATS FINAL"
How about looking at the complications - like 10% risk of meatal stenosis, risk of amutation, infection, death. Plus the pain.

And then contrast that with NOT doing it - no pain, no complications, no risk whatsoever of anything even vaguely uncomfortable.
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#32 of 58 Old 11-21-2007, 03:17 AM
 
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This is why DF wants the baby circ'd

http://www.udonet.com/circumcision/v...ty_of_men.html

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#33 of 58 Old 11-21-2007, 04:02 AM
 
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Another UK member here.

This might sound really selfish, but I keep wondering how much more hassle it would be to take care of a wound than an uncut penis. I keep reading about bleeding, having to change dressings, pee or poop getting in the incision, baby crying in pain all night long, etc. To me it just sounds like a nightmare to have to deal with that when the care of a newborn isn't exactly a walk in the park to begin with. To me, it seems all kinds of backwards to pay someone to make your life with your baby that much more difficult.

That isn't the reason I'm against RIC, obviously, it's just something I sometimes wonder about.

I think cutting bits off of people without their consent isn't cool. As has been said before, the kid can choose to get circumcised as an adult, but he can't choose to uncircumcise himself. I'd err on the side of caution there.

There's also the whole issue of circ having an adverse effect on breastfeeding. I can't see myself risking that for cosmetic surgery on an infant.

I get where your partner is coming from, and I wouldn't focus on the adverse effects on the kid's sexual life as an adult when talking to him about it. As valid as those reasons are, I think I'd rather keep it on a level that seems less personal to him.
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#34 of 58 Old 11-21-2007, 04:09 AM
 
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Your life doesnât change by the man whos elected. If your loved by someone you can't be rejected... decide what to be and go be it! If your a caged bird brake in and demand that somebody free it.
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#35 of 58 Old 11-21-2007, 04:48 AM
 
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#36 of 58 Old 11-21-2007, 10:28 AM
 
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It's your son's body. Shouldn't the choice to have part of his penis removed be left up to him??

milk donation : mother to Ryan (6), AJ (5), Nate (2), Maia (1) all born at home, I have a kid-friendly food & bento blog, : :
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#37 of 58 Old 11-21-2007, 12:43 PM
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Read my signature, please. It sums up what I have to say.

"Our task is not to see the future, but to enable it."
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#38 of 58 Old 11-21-2007, 01:15 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Ok, I have a lot to respond to, but first I want to thank everyone for being so professional and mature and understanding. I see so many posters get ripped to shreds when they post on touchy subjects. Thanks so much for keeping me comfortable. There are a few I want to respond to directly though....

Quote:
Originally Posted by MaterPrimaePuellae View Post
My reasoning is something like this: Once it's done, it can't really be undone (I know people do the foreskin restoration, but...), and DS could always have it done himself when he is older (if he wants to). I see no reason *at all* to dothis to a baby when the boy can decide himself as an adolescent or adult.
I feel exactly the same way about piercing little girls' ears.
!
This is a really good comparison to make. I havent pierced my daughters ears for that reason. She can decide when and if she wants to get it done. I dont know why I didnt make the comparison myself! I like it! If its important to him when hes older, he can have it done, and even get knocked out for it right? none of this "local anesthetic" or the chance of not using one!

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Originally Posted by Papai View Post
It seems to me that you're already NOT for circing.

But as for the foreskin, the common misconception is that it's "just excess skin". No. It allows for skin mobility of the penis during erections. If you have a long-sleeved shirt, grab the end of the sleeve into your fist and withdraw your inward a bit. With your arm inside your shirt a bit and with the end of the sleeve in your fist, this simulates the flaccid intact penis. The skin appears to be excessive but it's not. If you stretch your arm out to simulate an erection, you see that skin comes in handy. Now imagine that 30-50 percent of that skin was removed and sutured together. It's probably be a tight fit, wouldn't it? I hope what I said made sense, if not, someone else can give you a better analogy.

Most people don't realize that there is no "excessive" skin, you can't just cut off the tip. It's all one skin, that is cut, and the remaining skin is then stitched together.
This is a good analogy as well. I actually have thought of it as excessive skin.

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Originally Posted by spewie View Post
My dh and I felt almost the same way you did when we were pg with #1. I couldn't see any good reason TO do it, but I didn't think it mattered that much if we did. We could not decide. At first we thought we would wait and get it done later if we wanted to.

ETA: I no longer think that "it doesn't matter" I get really sad when those close to me choose to circ
YES! YES! YES! See, this is EXACTLY why i Posted this! Some moms feel that breast is best but they are not so convicted that they feel the need to perform "lactavis-im" on the other new moms they meet! Personally I am so dead against CHOOSING NOT to breastfeed. I feel SO strongly about it. I WANT to feel the same kind of strength in my decision as I do in my decision to BF! I used to not think twice when I saw a friend FF her baby, now I get sad inside, and wonder if there was anything that could have been done to help the mom BF so her child could experience it and reap the benefits. Hopefully after our decision is made, I will feel strongly enough that I will be able to say like you did " I no longer think that "it doesn't matter" I get really sad when those close to me choose to circ" In fact, Im feeling even stronger about it after this thread!

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Originally Posted by 13Sandals View Post
Understandably, its much harder for a man whose been circumcised to process that a functioning part of his genitalia was sliced off at birth, for no good reason, or, for reasons that just haven't proven themselves.
YEs, exactly where DF is at. I wish he would explore it more deeply so he COULD process it.

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Originally Posted by amandaleigh37 View Post
I felt the same way you did when I was pregnant. We ended up getting it done, and now it is my biggest regret. I wish someone would have convinced me then. It seems so obvious and clear to me now... I don't know why I didn't see it sooner

But just ask yourself, are you comfortable removing a part of your son's body if you "don't feel strongly about it either way"? You can always do it later... Please don't make the mistake I did. Once it's done, you can't take it back. You don't even have to decide this right now. You can decide to take your son home intact and make a decision in the weeks after he's born... I am certain if I would have done this, I would have never had it done. And then I wouldn't be dealing with the horrible guilt I have now
Thank you for posting. I really dont want to regret any decision I make. And Im so afraid that if I just let this one go I will regret it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmmom View Post
also, the foreskin makes a BIG difference during sex, whether you and your husband are aware of this or not.

I am not aware of this personally. I have only been with ONE intact partner and it was terrible. But looking back I realize perhaps it was his lack of skill not his intactness? he he


Quote:
Originally Posted by Blu Razzberri View Post
(Did you know they use foreskins in some anti-wrinkle cream!!?? Makes you wonder what 'magic ingredient' is in it!).
No WAY! ANTI WRINKLE CREAMS??? LMAO at what my imagination is coming up with to call it in the ingredients list!

Quote:
Originally Posted by nd_deadhead View Post
... You deliver a perfect, normal, healthy baby boy. You ooh and aah over him - his gorgeous eyes, his cute little nose, his amazing fingers and toes, his ears, his knees - he's perfect in every way. Do you honestly think you will look at his penis and say "Oh GROSS! We need to have THAT fixed right away!" Can you truly imagine handing your normal, healthy, perfect baby to a doctor, to be undressed, strapped to a board, his penis injected with anesthetic (if he's lucky), to have his foreskin cut off?

Wow. This is a really good one to use with DF. I love the simplicity


Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Pickle View Post
Sera,
Most of those early choices that we make so much of probably don't really matter that much to the child years later. My husband was bottle fed and I was breastfed--could anyone tell the difference? Can you meet a first grader and tell whether she was sleep trained or whether she coslept? Can you guess which of your neighbors were spanked? Probably not. But when you're parenting, every one of your choices reflects who you are deep down, and you should be fully convinced in your own mind of the rightness of everything you do.
This also makes prefect sense.

I feel much stronger about it that I did when DF and I had the initial conversation, I think I am better prepared to put my foot down, I just wish I felt more confident in my ability to bring him over to my side of the fence. However, I dont think Im sitting on the top of the fence or even looking at the other side anymore. Thanks so much!

Im a broc1.giflovinghippie.giffly-by-nursing2.gifcd.gif  novaxnocirc.gif
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#39 of 58 Old 11-21-2007, 01:32 PM
 
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SG this has been my experience. Before I was pregnant I knew I wouldn't do it personally but wasn't too pushed either way. Once I was pregnant I was more annoyed people would do it and argued against it in my DDC. I was grossed out by the pictures. But it was really only when my son was born and I saw how perfect he was and got to see what a baby winkie looks like (i.e. how safe is it to operate on something that wee when you really don't have to?) that I REALLY turned intactivist. And I get more so everyday as my son grows my loves for him grows.

Sometimes I wish I didn't have the sadness and anger about the subject I do but TRULY realising circ means makes me disgusted than anyone could do that a poor little innocent baby and how easy the medical community makes it.
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#40 of 58 Old 11-21-2007, 02:46 PM
 
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Originally Posted by sg784 View Post
...No WAY! ANTI WRINKLE CREAMS??...

Yes'm. Here is the article from NBC news. I wonder what they call it too "discarded collagen"...??? :


WARNING: The comments and opinions expressed above do not necessarily reflect those of the community in which I reside; or those of the internet parenting network.
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#41 of 58 Old 11-21-2007, 03:08 PM
 
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No WAY! ANTI WRINKLE CREAMS??? LMAO at what my imagination is coming up with to call it in the ingredients list!
Oh yes, and that's just the tiny tip of a VERY large iceberg in the foreskin industry. There's billions of dollars riding on keeping the foreskin flow going.

Here's a post I made some time ago now, don't know if all the links are still working, but probably enough for you to get the idea.

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...6&postcount=21
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#42 of 58 Old 11-21-2007, 03:18 PM
 
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Sounds like your mama-instincts are talking to you. Keep listening!

Wife to J, SAHM to W (03/06) ribboncesarean.gif at 32w4d, C (10/08) ribboncesarean.gif, and H (02/11) ribboncesarean.gif

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#43 of 58 Old 11-21-2007, 03:29 PM
 
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I went through the same process with my Dh. After the birth, ds had to go to the NICU and dh looked at me and said after all the baby had been through and all you have been through (transfer), there is no way we are circ' ing him. Before ds was born we had screaming matches about it. It really made me very ill.

What a great way to become a senior member I think this is my thousandth post. I am glad it is in this ddc. If it were not for Mothering, I may have sadly given in and been depressed about dh having " his son" circ'd.

:CLC,Doula :Mama to 2
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#44 of 58 Old 11-21-2007, 03:46 PM
 
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I saw this link in another tread and it made me think that it was the perfectly simple answer to why we feel passionate that one shouldn't circ. It's not an intactivist site or some scarey vidoe or pictures of a one in a million accident. It's just mommy after mommy dealing with a now problematic circ'd penis.

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#45 of 58 Old 11-21-2007, 05:36 PM
 
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Originally Posted by eepster View Post
I saw this link in another tread and it made me think that it was the perfectly simple answer to why we feel passionate that one shouldn't circ. It's not an intactivist site or some scarey vidoe or pictures of a one in a million accident. It's just mommy after mommy dealing with a now problematic circ'd penis.
Yeah, and it hasn't occurred to any of them that maybe they shouldn't have done it!

They are causing all this pain and suffering for their children, even in the teeth of being told by the medics that their children are normal. Why the obsession with manipulating their kids' genitals? UGH.

I wish someone would pipe up and tell them to leave well alone, that they've caused their kids enough pain, and have reduced their sexuality for no reason at all.

A generation of boys is going to grow up with a memory that their penis is a source of nothing but pain to them (caused by their mother constantly playing with it) - how screwed up is that?
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#46 of 58 Old 11-21-2007, 05:43 PM
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if you pm me your email, I'll send you alot of good info (studies that were published in medical magazines, videos, etc).
yulia.
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#47 of 58 Old 11-21-2007, 11:16 PM
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Here's a great website that explains it well:

http://www.circumstitions.com/Itsaboy.html

"Our task is not to see the future, but to enable it."
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#48 of 58 Old 11-22-2007, 12:02 AM
 
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growing up, our family rabbi was also a mohel - i vaguely remember him coming into our hebrew school classroom with his equipment & showing us how it was done.... little did he know what a disservice he was doing - it just left me with a yucky feeling.

i never considered circ-ing my ds, i just felt it was unnecessary.

then, i saw a video of how it's done in "birth as we know it" - YIKES!!!!! i'm practically traumatized.

i would show your partner a video of how it's done - he'll be convinced not to do it then.
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#49 of 58 Old 11-22-2007, 03:30 AM
 
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Obviously I feel differently to American women in general because intact is normal to me, circumcision makes them look and feel damaged and wrong.
I have to beg to differ about American women feeling differently... all the American women I know (I'm an American) who have been with both circumcised and intact men (and therefore can compare) have assured me that intact is definitely much more comfortable and preferable to circumcised... most American women have never been with an intact men and are therefore not qualified to make the comparison.

I've never been with a circumcised man, so I'm not qualified to compare either, but my friends tell me I'm not missing out on anything and that I'm very fortunate to have an intact husband.

On that topic... my husband is intact and my FIL is circumcised. My dh is very very grateful that my FIL didn't insist that my dh be circumcised. I'm very happy about that as well and I have no complaints So much for the "matching" argument and the "but his future partner will prefer it" argument.

Good for you for looking into this! It can be very hard to go against cultural norms, but I have yet to meet a mama who regretted NOT circumcising. There's a whole thread up top about mamas who regret circumcising... and that's just at this one message board...

love and peace.

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: Circumcision can never be undone :
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#50 of 58 Old 11-22-2007, 03:38 AM
 
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Oh, about adult circumcision. I have one friend who chose to be circumcised as a 20 year old (or 19... I don't remember). He was completely knocked out during the surgery and had ample pain meds prescribed for the healing period. He said it wasn't a big deal (the procedure itself), though he regretted having it done afterwards because he did it at the request of a girlfriend who dumped him very soon afterwards :

He was still glad that his parents left the decision up to him although he did choose to be circumcised later on.

Other than that... I know several circumcised men who are furious that their parents circumcised them, I know many circumcised men who don't care, and I know many intact men who are very happy that they have all their equipment (one of whom is my dh). The one friend who chose to be circumcised later in life is the only intact man I have ever met who wanted to be circumcised (and he didn't even decide that he wanted it on his own since his gf was pressuring him).

love and peace.

mama to two girls and due in November!
: Circumcision can never be undone :
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#51 of 58 Old 11-22-2007, 03:10 PM
 
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I wish someone would pipe up and tell them to leave well alone,
I just joined for this very reason .

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#52 of 58 Old 11-22-2007, 03:19 PM
 
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Another thing to consider is the fact that infant boys born today have a much higher chance of being left intact than in your partner's generation. Boys who are circumcised today are going to go to school (or if homeschooled learned through peer activities, etc.) and find out their friends have an entire penis. These circumcised boys are going to realize, "Hey, my friend is perfectly fine and healthy, he has no trouble getting a date on weekends, and he has his whole penis. What gives?"

The boys who are circumcised are going to quickly realize that something was done to them that didn't need to happen. They're going to start questioning their parents about why they would make a decision to permanently change their genitals, when there was nothing wrong at birth, and when most men have no problems at all with a whole penis.

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#53 of 58 Old 11-22-2007, 04:37 PM
 
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Originally Posted by eepster View Post
...It's just mommy after mommy dealing with a now problematic circ'd penis...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daisyuk View Post
...Yeah, and it hasn't occurred to any of them that maybe they shouldn't have done it!...
Boy...this statement sure doesn't apply to ME. I'm so angry and appalled that I was lied to for the sake of monetary gain. One should be able to trust that a doctor will do what's best for a child, yet that simply isn't the case. When I inquired about the reasons for circ, it was implied that I would be doing harm if I didn't, I received not one shred of information indicating that I shouldn't or WHY I shouldn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daisyuk View Post
...There's billions of dollars riding on keeping the foreskin flow going....
::: It's worse than I knew! At least my sons skin was put to good use, eh? :

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#54 of 58 Old 11-23-2007, 01:49 AM
 
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Let me just say, I've not had much experience with a number of various male organs. So my sample group is tiny... (the number in it- not necessarily...)

However, the only time I've been able to climax from genital sex exclusively was with an intact boy. And we were both very young and completely inexperienced and so his "talents" were not the reason. There was a distinct physical response that this boy aroused in me, so much so that even half my life later, it's STILL the image I use when considering an optimal sexual experience.

Aside from the fact that mutilation of a defenseless human being is always wrong, your child will not hate you for leaving him in better stead than his mutilated peers.
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#55 of 58 Old 11-23-2007, 06:08 AM
 
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Boy...this statement sure doesn't apply to ME. I'm so angry and appalled that I was lied to for the sake of monetary gain. One should be able to trust that a doctor will do what's best for a child, yet that simply isn't the case. When I inquired about the reasons for circ, it was implied that I would be doing harm if I didn't, I received not one shred of information indicating that I shouldn't or WHY I shouldn't.
I'm so sorry. That was so incredibly wrong.
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#56 of 58 Old 11-24-2007, 12:42 AM
 
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Sera! Hi! I'm so glad you're questioning circumcision. We didn't have either of the boys done (and never would). Dh did not like the idea of not doing it 2 years ago, but he doesn't understand why people WOULD do it now. I would tell your dh it just won't happen, he'll eventually come to understand why.

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#57 of 58 Old 11-24-2007, 02:23 AM
 
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It hit me one day in the shower on a "ding ding" sort of way. I was washing my privates and I the thought came to my head, "how would I feel if someone strapped me down when I was a newborn and had part of me cut off with a sharp instrument that hurt like heck?"

The word rape came to my mind. It's MY body, MY most private parts, NO ONE has the right to touch and certainly not cut them.
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#58 of 58 Old 11-24-2007, 02:33 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Daisyuk View Post
A generation of boys is going to grow up with a memory that their penis is a source of nothing but pain to them (caused by their mother constantly playing with it) - how screwed up is that?
God/dess, Daisy, I love you for having the ovaries to put it so plainly.
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